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SirPhoebos posted:The early EU was also set post-RotJ, where the basic assumption was that the Empire was on the back-pedal. I'm not sure this follows. Ignoring any EU and looking strictly at the films, it doesn't really make sense to think that they went from clones in Episode II & III to non-clones in Episode IV. It also seems to me that a bunch of faceless minions who are only ever addressed by a number in the OT would suggest that they are clones. Also I don't really consider it a retcon as I remember as a kid putting Leia's comment about the clone wars together with an army of identical soldiers and just assuming that they were clones. It was only when I started down the rabbit hole of the EU that I realised this wasn't the common view.
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Dec 5, 2014 18:36
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SirPhoebos posted:The early EU was also set post-RotJ, where the basic assumption was that the Empire was on the back-pedal. Except that we have two explanations within the EU. One is that they used multiple lines of clone, which fits better with the faceless minions with only a serial number, and the other is that they abandoned clones entirely despite this not making sense with the rest of the EU.
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Dec 5, 2014 20:59
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Some of the oldest and best EU (Heir to the Empire) portrays clones as rare in the stormtrooper corps until the re-discovery of Spaarti cloning by Thrawn. Later good EU in the form of the X-Wing novels also goes along with that, where on occasion main characters disguise themselves as stormtroopers and are not immediately discovered which is pretty fanning even if there are multiple (but significantly less numerous than conscript) lines.
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Dec 5, 2014 21:05
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I'm sick of this argument. So sick. I hope the new movies address this once and for all dammit.
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Dec 5, 2014 21:07
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Strobe posted:Some of the oldest and best EU (Heir to the Empire) portrays clones as rare in the stormtrooper corps until the re-discovery of Spaarti cloning by Thrawn. Later good EU in the form of the X-Wing novels also goes along with that, where on occasion main characters disguise themselves as stormtroopers and are not immediately discovered which is pretty fanning even if there are multiple (but significantly less numerous than conscript) lines. Heir to the Empire is where the "running out of stormtroopers" stuff comes from. The Imperial Navy and Army have no clue where stormtroopers come from according to the WEG stuff that Zahn used. The Last Command equates clone pilots with stormtroopers too, I'm pretty sure.
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Dec 5, 2014 21:18
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Effectronica posted:Heir to the Empire is where the "running out of stormtroopers" stuff comes from. The Imperial Navy and Army have no clue where stormtroopers come from according to the WEG stuff that Zahn used. The Last Command equates clone pilots with stormtroopers too, I'm pretty sure. I got the impression stormtroopers were rare simply because elite, well-trained troops are not something the Empire is brimming with right now. Also everyone in the Empire is kinda freaked out by Thrawn's clones.
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Dec 5, 2014 22:19
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In the Thrawn trilogy Imperial commanders are kind of weirded out by commanding clones. I prefer. The narrative that clones were incredibly rare by the time of the OT.
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Dec 5, 2014 22:28
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Casimir Radon posted:In the Thrawn trilogy Imperial commanders are kind of weirded out by commanding clones. I prefer. The narrative that clones were incredibly rare by the time of the OT. I always thought it was because in the Thrawn trilogy clones were described as being rather unpredictable and crazy.
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Dec 6, 2014 00:43
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StashAugustine posted:I got the impression stormtroopers were rare simply because elite, well-trained troops are not something the Empire is brimming with right now. Also everyone in the Empire is kinda freaked out by Thrawn's clones. Again, though, nobody knows where stormtroopers come from, which is odd if the boys in white are just elite forces with a lot of training, and people speak of them as a finite resource, unlike starships, which require much more time to complete than any realistic training. But if they really don't know that stormtroopers are clones (and late EU material indicates that the GeNode lines of clonetroopers created false memories and full personalities within hours of decanting), then that explains why the naked use of clones freaks them out.
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Dec 6, 2014 00:44
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To be quite honest, the idea that any of the OT stormtroopers could be clones never even crossed my mind, even after I saw AOTC. I think this is because: a) I read The Essential Guide to Characters before I read any of the novels, and the only stormtrooper who had a write-up in that book was Davin Felth ("Look, sir! Droids!"), who wasn't a clone; and b) I subsequently read the Thrawn Trilogy, and I remember getting the impression that the people who were with the Empire now had fought against clones during the Clone Wars (there's one bit where Pellaeon reflects on how he once engaged a rogue clone army during the Clone Wars; I believe John Ostrander later retconned this into being an army of Morgukai clones bred by the Separatists to kill Jedi). What I'm saying is, I can't say I particularly rue the non-canon status of the old EU.
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Dec 6, 2014 01:02
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When people talk favorably of the Clone Wars series is it the animated one or the CG one they mean? Can you even watch the animated one anywhere?
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Dec 6, 2014 02:23
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RichterIX posted:When people talk favorably of the Clone Wars series is it the animated one or the CG one they mean? Can you even watch the animated one anywhere? Talk about it has been the CG one. The animated one is fantastic and very nearly beyond reproach (as much as a 5-15 minute cartoon can be).
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Dec 6, 2014 02:28
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About the stormtroopers, not to mention that in the Jedi Academy Trilogy I think Kyp Durron (or his brother?) was a stormtrooper, and Luke meets an old clearly non-clone stormtrooper in Children of the Jedi. I remember when I first watched A New Hope as a kid (long before the prequels) for some reason I thought that stormtroopers were cyborgs with their helmets implanted onto them and Luke & Han killed them by basically pulling their heads off in order to get their uniforms. I guess I had kind of gruesome imagination as a kid. Also the original animated Clone Wars cartoon is amazing and it sucks that when the CGI version came out Lucasfilm tried to erase the first series from existence by no longer selling it.
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Dec 6, 2014 04:25
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RichterIX posted:When people talk favorably of the Clone Wars series is it the animated one or the CG one they mean? Can you even watch the animated one anywhere?
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Dec 6, 2014 06:06
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Kyle Katarn was a stormtrooper in the novelization of Dark Forces. Not a clone. Kir Kanos and Carnor Jax (along with all or most of the imperial guard hopefuls) were also stormtroopers at the beginning of Crimson Empire. Isn't a plot point somewhere that the Jango clones start deteriorating deteriorating going crazy after 15 or 20 years, and by A New Hope they're mostly enlisted stormtroopers? I prefer the world where stormtroopers are actual people. Adds more weight to their ill-deeds.
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Dec 6, 2014 06:43
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Zoran posted:I, Jedi is by far the funniest book in the old canon, if you read Kevin J. Anderson's poo poo. I also find it funny that it's Mike Stackpole of all people trying to take KJA to task for having one-dimensional villains and characters who are either obvious self-inserts or exist as wallpaper that occasionally tells you how cool the self-insert is.
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Dec 6, 2014 09:11
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Seeing that this all arose from fans raising a fuss over black stormtroopers, I think what I and others are trying to say is that no you are actually a horrible racist and must submit to tumblr for punishment.  EDIT: Unctuous Cretin posted:Isn't a plot point somewhere that the Jango clones start deteriorating deteriorating going crazy after 15 or 20 years, and by A New Hope they're mostly enlisted stormtroopers? Bingo! It's in the post-RotS novel about Darth Vader. The Emperor announces they're switching over to an enlisted army. SirPhoebos fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 09:12
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Strobe posted:Some of the oldest and best EU (Heir to the Empire) portrays clones as rare in the stormtrooper corps until the re-discovery of Spaarti cloning by Thrawn. Later good EU in the form of the X-Wing novels also goes along with that, where on occasion main characters disguise themselves as stormtroopers and are not immediately discovered which is pretty fanning even if there are multiple (but significantly less numerous than conscript) lines. I know they're several times not-canon by now, but I love the old WEG sourcebooks. The Imperial Sourcebook actually laid out an Imperial government system that made sense, including a combined-forces army and navy (as opposed to just stormtroopers). One of the creepier things about the stormtroopers as laid out in the sourcebook involved them having a completely independent and secret chain of command and recruiting base. I think at the time it wasn't clear whether stormtroopers were supposed to be some sort of clone or brainwashed human, and before the prequels came out it didn't matter. Now, I think it's cooler to think of them as both, coming from a number of different sources within the vast expanse of the galaxy. Also, Sectors and Sector Groups explained a lot about how a galaxy with tens of thousands of worlds could be governed/ controlled by a relatively small central apparatus. Sectors were made up of tens or even hundreds of individual inhabited worlds, and the entire region was represented/ controlled on Coruscant by one Senator/ Moff. To the extent that it matters how an imaginary universe actually runs, the WEG materials are great for fleshing out what you see in the films--which is exactly what a lot of the EU authors used them for.
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Dec 6, 2014 14:31
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Hazo posted:It's really not very hard to find. The animated micro-series is okay. Some parts, especially in the first "season," are really embarrassingly bad (Dooku's entire vocabulary for one episode iinvolves chuckling and saying the word "Indeed?" very dramatically, and C-3PO does a striptease, for example) and there's some stupid plotlines that go nowhere (the invincible armored guy called Durge or something that never appears again, and Anakin going to some weird giant rat planet for a drawn-out spirit journey kicked off by a very heavy-handed hallucination sequence) but it's got some good characterization especially for Ventress and Grievous. The animation's pretty nice too if you can get over Tartakovsky's penchant for occasional stupid facial expressions. It's got about as many hits and misses as the CGI series but I'm pretty sure most people enjoyed it. It has been quite a few years since I saw it, but I remember getting a kick out of the episode where Mace Windu is fighting an entire army of droids single-handed, and when he loses his lightsaber he punches them out instead.
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Dec 6, 2014 16:37
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Metal Loaf posted:It has been quite a few years since I saw it, but I remember getting a kick out of the episode where Mace Windu is fighting an entire army of droids single-handed, and when he loses his lightsaber he punches them out instead. God that was awesome.
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Dec 6, 2014 16:53
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SeanBeansShako posted:God that was awesome. Mace Windu owns. And I choose to believe that he really did out-duel Palpatine.
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Dec 6, 2014 17:33
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Zoran posted:Mace Windu owns. And I choose to believe that he really did out-duel Palpatine. It would be awesome really if he came back in the New Movies. I don't care if he'll be ancient and lacking a hand, he's got one and can still shatter point like crazy. Look, a nerd can dream  .
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Dec 6, 2014 17:37
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SeanBeansShako posted:God that was awesome. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj07qh51zPI Though Grievous' introduction is even better, in my opinion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIj7gIDFDe4
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Dec 6, 2014 18:03
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Grievous is actually sort of more interesting in the cartoons than in the actual loving film he's in. That is really really weird to this day if you ask me. Kind of like the reverse Boba Fett (debuted in the silly as hell Holiday Special cartoon, dies like a clown in the films).
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Dec 6, 2014 18:07
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Why do people assume Boyega is a stormtrooper, instead of just wearing the armor as a disguise? That happened in the original trilogy a bunch - Han & Luke on the Death Star, Leia & Lando in Jabba's Palace, Han to get back into the bunker...
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Dec 6, 2014 19:27
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Metal Loaf posted:It has been quite a few years since I saw it, but I remember getting a kick out of the episode where Mace Windu is fighting an entire army of droids single-handed, and when he loses his lightsaber he punches them out instead.
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Dec 6, 2014 20:21
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Zoran posted:Mace Windu owns. And I choose to believe that he really did out-duel Palpatine. Yeah, but Mace totally fell to the Dark Side at the end of the fight. He straight up was about to summary execute a defenseless opponent. It's even more explicit in the novelization, he sneers to Palpatine "You Sith disease!" after he surrenders. That's one of the few examples where I feel the Prequels succeeded in portraying Palpatine as a devious schemer without making it feel like he just had a copy of the script-he had forced the Jedi into a no-win situation where either they would be destroyed or become the very evil they had fought against for so long. SirPhoebos fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 00:10
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Fried Chicken posted:Why do people assume Boyega is a stormtrooper, instead of just wearing the armor as a disguise? That happened in the original trilogy a bunch - Han & Luke on the Death Star, Leia & Lando in Jabba's Palace, Han to get back into the bunker... Early leaked info said the main character was a Stormtrooper.
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Dec 7, 2014 00:20
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RichterIX posted:When people talk favorably of the Clone Wars series is it the animated one or the CG one they mean? Can you even watch the animated one anywhere? Both seasons of the animated one are on YouTube in their entirety.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:37
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It also gave us this awesome scene.
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Dec 7, 2014 06:27
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I would really like it if Genndy Tartakovsky was given the chance to make a new cartoon about a lone Jedi walkng the galaxy post Order 66. I know that's basically an overploughed field at this point but it would essentially be Samurai Jack and as such it would be worth it.
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Dec 7, 2014 11:34
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Jedi Jack? Yes. Yes I would agree to that.
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Dec 7, 2014 15:17
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Agreed, but only if they bring back that lion alien bounty hunter dude again.
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Dec 7, 2014 21:50
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Or Pig Sheriff and his redneck posse. Way more effective than those big-planet high-falootin Inquisitors.
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Dec 8, 2014 02:42
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They've released character names. Also I read an interview with Oscar Isaacs where he talked about how there were tons of physical props and everybody really poured their heart into making this movie. Hope that's true.
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Dec 12, 2014 04:57
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Only silly-ish one really is Poe. I'd like to know Rey and Finn's last names though! (One of them is going to be Starkiller, isn't it?)
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Dec 12, 2014 05:02
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I was more than a little skeptical of the authenticity of these until I found the EW article they come from. http://insidemovies.ew.com/2014/12/11/star-wars-the-force-awakens-character-names/
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Dec 12, 2014 05:06
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SeanBeansShako posted:Only silly-ish one really is Poe. I'd like to know Rey and Finn's last names though! Rey is definitely going to be Solo. Finn Starkiller is something I hadn't considered but definitely feels like it could fit.
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Dec 12, 2014 07:31
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Chairman Capone posted:Rey is definitely going to be Solo. Finn Starkiller is something I hadn't considered but definitely feels like it could fit. Organa-Solo 
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Dec 12, 2014 14:52
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Yorkshire Tea posted:Organa-Solo Nah, their children's last names would not be Organa-Solo.
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Dec 12, 2014 16:42
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