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It's not exactly a fail state either, since you can actually complete the game perfectly fine in high chaos. The game actually reacts to how the player solves their problems. It doesn't slap them on the wrist or punish them in any way, other than by making a low chaos run significantly less of a power fantasy. If I kill every living thing on every map in the game and depopulate the already beleaguered, plague-ridden city of Dunwall it would be helluva jarring for the game to pat me on the head, call me a shining beacon of light and give me the good guy ending. Those hookers, guards and priests I slaughtered were predominantly not bad people. It could have done with a bit more nuance, but it's a hell of a lot better than being given a series of buttons to press to determine the ending, or having just one ending that rings false because my mass-murdering psycho playthrough has me lauded as a hero.
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Dec 16, 2014 06:22
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HnK416 posted:I'm not appalled, I just think it's kind of dumb to build a game around being a badass assassin man and then go "lawl nope you're totally evil for doing that, here's a fail state". If they would have taken out the moral choice stuff, kept the game at a low/middle chaos (hell even high chaos would be doable if explained right) I wouldn't have a single drat problem with the game. Would have probably enjoyed it even more! Hmm...It's almost as if your powers were granted to you by a tempting Satan figure, and the gameplay reflects that theme! Seriously though to be non-sarcastic for a moment, a low chaos run playing the way it does and your powers and tools being structured the way they are is totally intentional and is a feature, not a flaw.
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Dec 16, 2014 06:23
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HnK416 posted:It is literally "We are going to punish you, the player, for playing this game a certain way." This is the wrong way to do morality systems. It's worked in to the gameplay yes, and it's admittedly very neat how they did it, but that doesn't make it good. No it isn't? It's saying "playing the game a certain way will make something different happen". Also, I don't see how low-chaos is less fun, since it hinges on low kill/low combat and... well, it's a spiritual successor to the Thief series.
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Dec 16, 2014 06:29
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I'm in the camp that thinks the high-chaos isn't actually "punished" because the alternate last level & epilogue it gets you feel perfectly appropriate to the story as a whole. Maybe even more appropriate than the low-chaos ending since the game in general is fairly dark, and it's okay for a grim story to have a grim ending.
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Dec 16, 2014 06:35
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bhlaab posted:No it isn't? It's saying "playing the game a certain way will make something different happen". Also, I don't see how low-chaos is less fun, since it hinges on low kill/low combat and... well, it's a spiritual successor to the Thief series. The problem with a low chaos run is that you are effectively restricted in your use of around 3/4ths of your weapons and special powers. In Thief most of your arrows had utility purposes--even broadheads could be used as makeshift noisemakers--and you could occasionally let loose against monsters and the undead, but in Dishonored most of your powers and weapons are creative ways to kill people. So the problem with a low chaos run is that it can feel like you are actively fighting against the game's design in order to accomplish your goal. That's one thing I'll give Thi4f: if you want to go completely clean and not kill a soul, you still have plenty of tools and abilities you can use to get that done. I'm feeling kind of torn right now. On the one hand, I feel like I ought to tell you guys to get back on track, but on the other hand I really don't blame you all for discussing Dishonored instead of Thi4f.
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Dec 16, 2014 06:44
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As long as it's not "you killed one guy, time to lock you into the irredeemable murder-bastard route" (which I'm glad to hear it isn't) I don't mind restriction too much because I can still say "you know, it would be rather useful to kill these guys right now." And it's sure as hell better than a bunch of "save orphanage or murder basket of kittens" morality choices.
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Dec 16, 2014 06:48
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I haven't yet beat Dishonored though it is very much on my bucket list, but I think I get and sympathize with both sides of the issue. On the one hand it handles the whole 'Lucifer figure is tempting you with terrible powers' thematically well, while mechanically you're terribly limited if you decide to try and avoid what is widely perceived as the 'bad' ending. So the disconnect and associated criticism seems well warranted, but still, seems like a solid game. Now comparing that to T4, which, bleh. I want to hate on the rope arrows a lot but then at least they deemed it worth including as compared to T3, which couldn't even make it in due to the terribleness of the engine. Everything's just so hamfisted and akward though, the drat thief-tool-merchant, the binary loud and quiet surfaces, Erin's whole poorly thought out and clunky dream sequence...there's probably no criticism I can level at it that hasn't already been but still, just feel the need. They're always so close to getting something cool done right though. Like imagine instead of having gobs of Garrett fan art there was just the one piece of Garrett with the eye-switch in it, mixed in with other just cool and more typical student of the art pieces, and it stands out enough to get a comment from Garrett, drawing attention to the hidden switch. No need for awkward glowy dream sequences, just a quiet abandoned place that once belonged to your...well I was gonna say protege but what even is this character relationship? Awkward, thats what.
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Dec 16, 2014 07:14
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The Protagonist posted:On the one hand it handles the whole 'Lucifer figure is tempting you with terrible powers' thematically well, while mechanically you're terribly limited if you decide to try and avoid what is widely perceived as the 'bad' ending. So the disconnect and associated criticism seems well warranted, but still, seems like a solid game. I actually think it all comes together quite well, actually- the Outsider think all humans are bastards, and given enough power, you'll become just another massive bastard, which is who a high-Chaos Corvo is likely to be. But if you stick to Blink and Dark Sight while keeping people alive, he will sound surprised, as you've just turned all his expectations on his head. True, he does pull a "you're the exception that proves the rule" after, but still.
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Dec 16, 2014 07:57
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Bruceski posted:As long as it's not "you killed one guy, time to lock you into the irredeemable murder-bastard route" (which I'm glad to hear it isn't) I don't mind restriction too much because I can still say "you know, it would be rather useful to kill these guys right now." And it's sure as hell better than a bunch of "save orphanage or murder basket of kittens" morality choices. As long as you're trying to keep the murder count down, you should be fine. Especially since there's often little things to do in a level to lower chaos a little. Sidequests and the like. Of course, the devs paid attention to complaints, and the DLC adds a lot of new non-lethal tools to allow for more creativity while keeping chaos low. Seriously, the DLC is top notch.
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Dec 16, 2014 08:24
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chiasaur11 posted:Of course, the devs paid attention to complaints, and the DLC adds a lot of new non-lethal tools to allow for more creativity while keeping chaos low. Seriously, the DLC is top notch. I have to admit, this kinda got my  going, because part of what made the whole low chaos playthrough good for me was how limited my options were, as well as how they encouraged me to get creative and take time to observe and plan. Blink-pause is for babbies, I say 
CommissarMega fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Dec 16, 2014 |
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Dec 16, 2014 08:32
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chiasaur11 posted:Of course, the devs paid attention to complaints, and the DLC adds a lot of new non-lethal tools to allow for more creativity while keeping chaos low. Seriously, the DLC is top notch. Going by the "trying to get you to kill poo poo" idea, the real Devil of Dishonored is Piero. Oh yeah, and blink-pause is completely amazing and should've been added to the main game since the DLC is way too short for how much fun that is.
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Dec 16, 2014 08:39
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I tried to segway back Bobbin, I tried! 
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Dec 16, 2014 08:44
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chiasaur11 posted:You are an assassin. Tell that to Ezio Auditore To be fair, I will admit that the whole "more senseless murder=you are awful" thing fits and it is done decently, the problem is that I just plain do not like moral choice systems 9 times out of 10, and I will also admit that is just me being pissy. I think the only game in recent memory that has done one that I really loved was Metro 2033 and that's because it was very, very realistic, but I could gush endlessly about why that game is so good. Thi4f talk: Rewatching the videos I am noticing one small thing that ends up being both an interesting idea and a very annoying practice; Garret: Nine Inch Nails Enthusiast really does interact with the world at every available point. It's done fairly clunkily, admittedly, but I do enjoy it. You just don't seem many first person games that actually try to make a point of showing that you do have a physical body besides a camera for a head. HnK416 fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Dec 16, 2014 |
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Dec 16, 2014 08:52
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Honestly, KnK416, I think you're just being spergy about getting some kind of ~perfect ending~ to your game. I hate morality systems too, and think Dishonored is less bad than most. My issue with it is actually the "good ending", since it's a completely simple everyone-is-happy outcome. If both endings had been complex and bittersweet it would have been much better, but instead you feel like you didn't save poo poo if you played your way.
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Dec 16, 2014 09:37
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George posted:Honestly, HnK416, I think you're just being spergy about getting some kind of ~perfect ending~ to your game. I hate morality systems too, and think Dishonored is less bad than most. My issue with it is actually the "good ending", since it's a completely simple everyone-is-happy outcome. If both endings had been complex and bittersweet it would have been much better, but instead you feel like you didn't save poo poo if you played your way. HnK416 posted:To be fair, I will admit that the whole "more senseless murder=you are awful" thing fits and it is done decently, the problem is that I just plain do not like moral choice systems 9 times out of 10, and I will also admit that this is just me being pissy.
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Dec 16, 2014 10:00
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One thing about Dishonored's morality system--did the game count as a kill if you knocked a guard out cold and rats ate him? Because I remember being really annoyed at having to hide bodies in safe places, but I only did it because a friend told me it was a thing and wasn't ever really sure if that was really how it worked. It annoyed me more than anything else because goddamn it.
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Dec 16, 2014 10:08
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Hopeford posted:One thing about Dishonored's morality system--did the game count as a kill if you knocked a guard out cold and rats ate him? Because I remember being really annoyed at having to hide bodies in safe places, but I only did it because a friend told me it was a thing and wasn't ever really sure if that was really how it worked. It annoyed me more than anything else because goddamn it. It counted as a kill if they drowned or fell too far too. Chaos rating, after all. Doesn't matter how it happened. Now there's one less guard to keep some small semblance of order.
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Dec 16, 2014 10:19
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The Protagonist posted:
IIRC they weren't originally, you were supposed to use the claws grappling hook thingy instead until the fan outcry of " WTF are you thinking?" encouraged them to put rope arrows back in. They probably use the same contextual beams as the claw would have.
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Dec 16, 2014 10:23
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Well, that's a great solution, bringing back rope arrows without realizing why they're important.
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Dec 16, 2014 10:34
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At least using the claw would have been more honest. Cause that's just Batman.
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Dec 16, 2014 12:06
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anilEhilated posted:Oh yeah, and blink-pause is completely amazing and should've been added to the main game since the DLC is way too short for how much fun that is. Daud's blink has less range in return for pausing time, so it's sort of a trade off. And on the topic of morality systems, I almost wish Thorf had shoehorned one in. Steal a priceless heirloom butterknife from a family suffering from the Gloom. Bonus points if that poo poo would fill out your collection.
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Dec 16, 2014 15:48
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Um, yeah... not really much to say about the new episodes except to echo all the sentimentsd that have already been mentioned about Erin, the Evil Guards, hidden loading screens, etc., and how much better TDM is (at least, these particular mods) at capturing the spirit of the Thief games and being a better game, period. As for Dishonored, all I can say about that is that it was much better than Thifourth, and one of the key reasons for that is that the creators of Dishonored, while taking a lot of inspration from the previous Thief games (among other things), were interested in creating the fist Dishonored, instead of the fourth Thief. Consequently, everything feels that much more organic, original and honest than even the best moments of Thi4f can come up with.* *This assumes, of course, that we have seen a "best moment" thus far. Have we?
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Dec 16, 2014 20:58
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Well speaking of bad writing/characterization, I have plenty to say about Orion and his followers, but we need to see a bit more of them before everything I have to say is relevant. But for now think this over: what exactly is Orion's cause? What exactly is the Baron doing that he opposes? We haven't seen enough of Orion or his followers to do anything but guess at this point, but try and keep it in the back of your mind every time Orion and his followers get screen time. E: Dishonored chat: i gotta say I am 100% with HnK416, though I'd change the proposed solution a bit. Instead of having no bad ending, I would change the setup such that there is no good ending. The existence of the good ending, I think, is a cop out. Would you still restrain yourself if everything turns to poo poo anyways? That would be way more interesting. insanityv2 fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Dec 16, 2014 |
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Dec 16, 2014 21:10
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If there was anything I'd really change about Dishonored it'd be the voice acting, to be honest. A lot of it is just flat and flaccidly delivered - even the Outsider sounds vaguely bored, though in his case that may well be intentional. And the complaints about not being able to use tools as effectively for stealth as for combat are pretty valid. I tend to play stealthily out of pure habit whenever a game gives me the option to, so whenever I force myself into combat to use Dishonored's awesome tools I feel kinda guilty afterward for betraying my traditional play style, but at the same time, I /wanna/ use those grenades and darts and time stopping powers for something. Hell, that's probably the point. The whole game drives home that moralistic point of making you feel like a shithead for indulging in your power fantasies. Not a lot of games do that, so... ... poo poo, Bobbin, couldn't you have LP'd Dishonored instead? Edit Thi4f talk: this game is poo poo. More than that, it's boring, thematically inert poo poo. They shot for revitalizing a beloved series and pulled it off in arguably the most pedestrian, watered down fashion. For the life of me I can't summon the energy to say anything else about it, much less complain about the characters or the mechanics or what have you, it's such a non-presence of a game. Its dysfunctional development is probably more interesting than the game itself. Waiting for more Dark Mod 
Erwin the German fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Dec 16, 2014 |
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Dec 16, 2014 21:33
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My overall feeling on Erin is "why are you even here?" And then the creepy stalker portraits of garret just made it goofy AND dumb. I'll take the bonkers goat paintings over erin trying too hard from beyond the grave any day.
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Dec 16, 2014 21:34
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insanityv2 posted:Well speaking of bad writing/characterization, I have plenty to say about Orion and his followers, but we need to see a bit more of them before everything I have to say is relevant. Well, obviously, the Baron is being the Antagonist because of reasons and so Orion's job is to be the Vaguely Populist Resistance Guy who might later turn out to be evil to show us this is a hard hitting and cynical social commentary. Orion must be a swell guy, so many characters have told us so already! Goddamn this poo poo is amateur hour. It doesn't actually earn anything it tries to run as a story point, does it? If you're going to make Garret guilty about Erin or whatever you might actually show some prior relationship to establish it, let her hang around a little, and show them being comfortable around one another instead of bickering and yelling and stealing from each other, goddamnit.
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Dec 16, 2014 21:39
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resurgam40 posted:*This assumes, of course, that we have seen a "best moment" thus far. Have we? I believe I'd say that Chapter 4 is simultaneously the best part and the stupidest waste of potential of the entire game.
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Dec 16, 2014 21:47
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^^I'd argue the the first half of Chapter 6 is good as well. Also I'm going to defend the first half of the brothel level when we get to it, that is to say, the part of hte level where you are actually stealing stuff. Night10194 posted:It doesn't actually earn anything it tries to run as a story point, does it? If you're going to make Garret guilty about Erin or whatever you might actually show some prior relationship to establish it, let her hang around a little, and show them being comfortable around one another instead of bickering and yelling and stealing from each other, goddamnit. This is probably the most succinct explanation of the problem with the game's "storytelling" I've seen so far. But yeah, Erin's introduction is full of characterization shorthands that traditionally indicate that you shoud dislike a character (oops i dropped the thing i was handing you :80shighschoolbully:), and then the game turns around tries to run a character arc for garrett that relies on liking Erin to be at all effective... insanityv2 fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Dec 16, 2014 |
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Dec 16, 2014 21:49
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They've done the age-old 'put you in medias res with a character they want you to like, have that character die/dissapear/get kidnapped and then act like there's a big motivation towards avenging/'rescuing/finding the character' thing. Except as mentioned above they dont even bother to make Erin likable. How often does that narrative tactic even work in games anyways?
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Dec 16, 2014 22:25
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PlaceholderPigeon posted:They've done the age-old 'put you in medias res with a character they want you to like, have that character die/dissapear/get kidnapped and then act like there's a big motivation towards avenging/'rescuing/finding the character' thing. Except as mentioned above they dont even bother to make Erin likable. It can work if the game (or whatever media) provides flashbacks and/or exposition to establish the character and the protagonist's relationship in order to contrast the change or the sense of loss. So guess what never happens in this game!
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Dec 16, 2014 22:32
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What is the age gap between them here? Because it initially seems like a protege thing, or a father-daughter callback to the T3 ending, but then "I remember why I stopped working with you", and there's a bit of overprotective-big-brother in the prologue, but they're also sort-of-friendly rivals, but now she's a creepy obsessed fan? (the answer is "she's all of these things" because of the development hell and they had to cobble together what they could from the mess, which is a shame as there are some genuinely good bits here and there trying to get out. Which is oddly worse then it being a flat-out trainwreck. )
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Dec 16, 2014 22:47
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:It can work if the game (or whatever media) provides flashbacks and/or exposition to establish the character and the protagonist's relationship ... or, y'know, takes some time to actually establish a good rapport and relationship between the characters naturally, by having them, y'know, interact plausibly.
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Dec 16, 2014 22:52
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Night10194 posted:Well, obviously, the Baron is being the Antagonist because of reasons and so Orion's job is to be the Vaguely Populist Resistance Guy who might later turn out to be evil to show us this is a hard hitting and cynical social commentary. Orion must be a swell guy, so many characters have told us so already! I really, really hope the authors are actually more clever than they appear and spare us the most obvious plot twists (Erin lives, Orion is evil), because otherwise it would be really sad. PlaceholderPigeon posted:They've done the age-old 'put you in medias res with a character they want you to like, have that character die/dissapear/get kidnapped and then act like there's a big motivation towards avenging/'rescuing/finding the character' thing. Except as mentioned above they dont even bother to make Erin likable. It wouldn't have worked even if Erin was actually likable. A short tutorial level is just not enough to build any meaning relationship between the characters. This should be a subtle thing that actually happens during the game, otherwise it seems shoehorned. Deus Ex does that well with all these characters in UNATCO HQ. Alex, Jamie, Sgt. Carter, even Janice Reed or that soldier receptionist who tries to cheer you up after Paul's failed mission. It worked to the point where I actually felt bad after going for Manderley and hearing his secretary exclaim "I thought we were like family!". None of these characters needed a section of the plot devoted only for them. Some actual positive interaction is enough. With Erin, she isn't presented as an actual human being. We don't have even a bit of normal interaction with her. She doesn't behave as a friend, romantic interest or a coworker. They seem to dislike each other and I don't get why Basso even sent them together on a dangerous mission. Guilt could have worked as a motivation, because Garrett pretty much killed her with his childish prank. He stole the tool which Erin heavily relied on in the middle of dangerous territory; of course it ended badly. Except that he never acknowledges it in any way, or shows any shreds of regret. He raised her and actually probably remembers her as someone else than a bully on meth. If he doesn't give a poo poo about causing her death, why should the player care?
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Dec 17, 2014 00:15
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There's not really much to say about the upcoming level. I think it's pretty and relatively well designed but the game's bugs/shortcomings shine through and the game just gets downright juvenile here because "HEY LIKE DISHONORED HAD A BROTHEL BUT OURS IS LIKE WAY MORE HARDCORE MAN IT HAS TITTIES AND ACTUAL SEX AND STUFF LOOK AT MEEEEEE" I'm curious to see if a particular gimmick bugs out for you like it did for me.
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Dec 17, 2014 00:29
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Thief 2014's story starts out clichéd, garbled and inept, and stays that way for the duration.resurgam40 posted:*This assumes, of course, that we have seen a "best moment" thus far. Have we? Bobbin Threadbare posted:I believe I'd say that Chapter 4 is simultaneously the best part and the stupidest waste of potential of the entire game. insanityv2 posted:^^I'd argue the the first half of Chapter 6 is good as well. Also I'm going to defend the first half of the brothel level when we get to it, that is to say, the part of hte level where you are actually stealing stuff. Not much of chapters 4 and 6 really stuck with me (I had to do a bit of googling just now to jog my memory), but chapter 5 was probably the most memorable and effective part of the game for me. Quite gimmicky and derivative by nature, though.
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Dec 17, 2014 01:25
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Finally getting around to watching the Dark Mod videos (been putting them off because I wanted to try out some of the missions you're playing) and they're really highlighted my biggest problem with it and the original Thief games; Why the gently caress do Garret Classic and Not-Garret not invest in a pair of soft sole boots that don't go clomp clomp clack on every surface? It was worse in the old games, I mean hell you could hear him scuff his shoes on the floor but I mean if you're walking on hard-wood floors and you're making loud noticeable clacks then you need to revisit your footwear. FakeEdit: I know it's so you can tell how loud you're being and gameplay stuff and all of that, but it bugs the heck out of me HnK416 fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 04:29
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IIRC that's something bobbin brought up in his lp. Universe wise, who the gently caress knows. Mechanics wise it let players know exactly how much noise they were making at any point in time.
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Dec 17, 2014 04:35
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Style has always been more important than function with footwear. Sure, Garret could get some slippers or something, but just think how absolutely embarrassed he would be if he was apprehended while not wearing a pair of proper gentleman's high heels?
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Dec 17, 2014 07:02
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I never let it bother me, it just seemed like an exaggerated abstraction in the same way that light and dark were so stark. Even back in the day though there were some places you could be totally unseen that were pretty hilarious, really anywhere you'd make a really obvious silhouette against a bright lit area behind you but nope, Garrett is one with the shadows.
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Dec 17, 2014 07:16
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The Protagonist posted:I never let it bother me, it just seemed like an exaggerated abstraction in the same way that light and dark were so stark. Even back in the day though there were some places you could be totally unseen that were pretty hilarious, really anywhere you'd make a really obvious silhouette against a bright lit area behind you but nope, Garrett is one with the shadows. I treat regenerating health and radar in fps games as abstractions the same way, really. Radar (or x-Ray vision, or target tagging, etc) is needed because the player is working with only two senses, sight and hearing, and they are quite limited in scope as well. The character being controlled has all five senses, combat experience and peripheral vision, and is often familiar with his surroundings and foes, to name a few advantages over the player controlling them. Regenerating health and taking dozens of bullets I just treat as near misses and the like, with your luck eventually running out when you take that last bullet. Garret hiding in shadows like you describe would be much easier for him to accomplish in "real life" by pressing flat against a surface or leaning into the shadows more, holding still and holding his breath, all things a player who has "crouch or run" as his options cannot do. Picking a night with a dim moon, thick cloud cover, high winds or pouring rain would help avoid detection as well. All Garret really needs to be stealthy is a cardboard box, though.
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Dec 17, 2014 08:09
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