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hectorgrey posted:Thing to remember is that by and large, people do in fact "just follow orders". When somebody with perceived authority claims responsibility for a person's actions when following those orders, and orders that person to do something horrific, a person's natural inclination is to do as they're told. They might feel horrible about it later, or even at the time, but they'll do it. Look up Stanley Milgram's study from the 1960's. My bullets are ordering the nazis to stop immediately. 
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Dec 20, 2014 15:51
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CommissarMega posted:Inmate A: "Why are you in the gulag?" "'But doctor', he says, 'I am Pagliacci.' Good joke. Everybody laughs. Roll on snare drum." There's another Soviet joke, that goes something like this: An old man is interrogated by the KGB. The interrogator asks him: "Where were you born?" The old man answers: "Saint Petersburg." The interrogator nods, and hits the old man in the stomach. He asks: "Where did you go to school?" The old man, coughing: "Petrograd." The interrogator hits the old man again, and says: Where do you live now?" The old man says: "Leningrad." The interrogator asks the old man again, gun to his head: "Where would you like to die?" The old man answers: "Saint Petersburg."
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Dec 20, 2014 16:49
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Citizen, report to unit 1138 in the "Sea Foam Green" section for your compulsory beachside vacation. E: Prora in Civ V as a wonder made me laugh real hard the first time I saw it.
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Dec 20, 2014 19:40
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Pvt.Scott posted:Citizen, report to unit 1138 in the "Sea Foam Green" section for your compulsory beachside vacation. Yeah, I'm so angry about it today. Here's the Civ V wonder image;  Look at how grand and majestic it looks. Meanwhile, in real life: a lengthy row of what Soviet apartments will like in 1960s. Grrr.
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Dec 20, 2014 19:55
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JcDent posted:Yeah, I'm so angry about it today. Here's the Civ V wonder image; image is broken
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Dec 20, 2014 20:19
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Blind Sally posted:image is broken I honestly don't think anything Civ can come up with can piss me off more than they did by including Stalin in Civ IV.
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Dec 20, 2014 20:34
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anilEhilated posted:That's how ugly it is. Yeah, since Stalin got a free pass into Civ, I want Adolph Hitler, Vlad Tepes, Pol Pot and Saddam Hussein in. It would give Gandhi more targets to nuke. E: and Andrew Jackson, too.
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Dec 20, 2014 20:47
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North Korea for playable civ!
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Dec 20, 2014 20:52
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JcDent posted:Yeah, I'm so angry about it today. Here's the Civ V wonder image;  Imgur is your friend.
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Dec 20, 2014 20:58
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I didnt know Prora was a wonder in Civ V and now I am kinda angry it is. Because A. Nazis and B. its a piece of poo poo. ^^ that gives me bioshock infinite vibes for some reason.
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Dec 20, 2014 22:11
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ZeusCannon posted:I didnt know Prora was a wonder in Civ V and now I am kinda angry it is. Because A. Nazis and B. its a piece of poo poo. In Civ5's final expansion, there are three ideologies in the late game, each with an associated wonder. Freedom (Western style democracy) gets the Statue of Liberty and Order (Soviet style communism) gets the Kremlin. The remaining ideology is Autocracy (fascism), which uh didn't leave a lot of choice or room for political correctness.
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Dec 20, 2014 22:38
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Let's face it, the only other thing I can think of associated with fascism that'd make a wonder is Mussolini's train timetables. It is kinda difficult, really, fascist countries usually tend to focus on statues as opposed to buildings for their monuments.
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Dec 20, 2014 22:45
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anilEhilated posted:Let's face it, the only other thing I can think of associated with fascism that'd make a wonder is Mussolini's train timetables. It is kinda difficult, really, fascist countries usually tend to focus on statues as opposed to buildings for their monuments. Which also didn't actually work out at all. He did not, in fact, make the trains run on time. Fascists are hilariously bad at economies.
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Dec 20, 2014 22:54
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Of course it didn't, trains running late is an universal constant: man was a dictator, not a demigod. But hey, there's some degree of fiction involved, it's not like the USSR had anything to do with actual communism either. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Dec 20, 2014 |
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Dec 20, 2014 22:55
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ZeusCannon posted:I didnt know Prora was a wonder in Civ V and now I am kinda angry it is. Because A. Nazis and B. its a piece of poo poo. Oh yeah, I suppose the context is that you can only build Prora if you decided to go fascist and take the Autocracy ideology. I won an Autocracy culture victory, because I could. Everyone was buying my Hugo Boss blue jeans and listening to my pop music, like Siouxsie and the Valkyries. Of course I was playing the Aztecs, so there's blood sacrifice in the mix, too!
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Dec 20, 2014 23:48
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anilEhilated posted:Let's face it, the only other thing I can think of associated with fascism that'd make a wonder is Mussolini's train timetables. It is kinda difficult, really, fascist countries usually tend to focus on statues as opposed to buildings for their monuments. The supposed "trains running on time" was a myth created by the fascist regime to try and show off how revolutionary and awesome Mussolini was. The Italian rail system was lovely after World War I and Mussolini took the credit for pre-fascist rebuilding. The trains still never reliably ran on time in the first place.
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Dec 20, 2014 23:56
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Pvt.Scott posted:Oh yeah, I suppose the context is that you can only build Prora if you decided to go fascist and take the Autocracy ideology. I won an Autocracy culture victory, because I could. Everyone was buying my Hugo Boss blue jeans and listening to my pop music, like Siouxsie and the Valkyries. Of course I was playing the Aztecs, so there's blood sacrifice in the mix, too! The best part about culture victories is when you force your arch nemesis to either adopt your ideology or die as his cities defect. I had Ghengis go from denouncing me on turn 250 to suggesting that we start an alliance due to our similar ideologies on turn 251.
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Dec 21, 2014 02:26
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Kurieg posted:The best part about culture victories is when you force your arch nemesis to either adopt your ideology or die as his cities defect. I had Ghengis go from denouncing me on turn 250 to suggesting that we start an alliance due to our similar ideologies on turn 251. It's always fun to watch this happen. Last game I had Carthage being an enormous dick the entire game until I culture-bombed them so hard half the cities switched allegiances to me. Serves you right, Carthage. I gave them all back because haha wow they were poo poo cities but still, it's the principle of the thing. Then they defected again, and I started gifting them to random other civs. That got an interesting series of wars started, let me tell you.
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Dec 21, 2014 02:33
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Pvt.Scott posted:Oh yeah, I suppose the context is that you can only build Prora if you decided to go fascist and take the Autocracy ideology. I won an Autocracy culture victory, because I could. Everyone was buying my Hugo Boss blue jeans and listening to my pop music, like Siouxsie and the Valkyries. Of course I was playing the Aztecs, so there's blood sacrifice in the mix, too! I think it was in one of the Call to Power games that switching to Fascism as your government type killed two or three points of population in every city to a minimum city size of one to represent your government purging "undesirables."
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Dec 21, 2014 03:17
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hectorgrey posted:Thing to remember is that by and large, people do in fact "just follow orders". When somebody with perceived authority claims responsibility for a person's actions when following those orders, and orders that person to do something horrific, a person's natural inclination is to do as they're told. They might feel horrible about it later, or even at the time, but they'll do it. Look up Stanley Milgram's study from the 1960's. No, that's only the first experiment. Milgram did several, and in fact, what the experiments show is that people expressly don't follow orders "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir". However, they will go to great lengths to do things that might be unpleasant if it is to further what they percieve to be a noble goal. I suggest listening to Radiolab's episode about it, titled "The Bad show".
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Dec 21, 2014 03:56
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Well, I'm a bad person and the only cultural victory I achieved in Civ V was autocracy. Probably because of teenage rebelion and anarchistic tendencies I got a fascination with Imperium of Man and that never went away. Tho the problem with simulating different political or government forms in games is that they largely depend on game devs view, so most of the time you end up with United Planets of Spacemerica, because it's the most efficient (gameplay wise) choice. Hell, even in Endless Space, the only ways to increase happyness is to increase consumerism and to release control over civil life, and eventually give planets self control like in a federation. Course, that's all flavor text and federated planets still obediently build dreadnoughts and factories. Still, it's kind of silly when the same stuff applies to Space Aztec Birds, Shattered Hivemind Crystals and Always Hostile Cyborg Bug Warrior Swarm.
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Dec 21, 2014 04:59
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I think that Civ 5's devs did the best they could; even though Freedom was objectively the best ideology, there were plenty of things in the other ideologies that made them strong. It's just that they strongly promoted certain victory types- Order promoted Science victories and Autocracy promoted Conquest. it's just that Freedom was so versatile, you could go for anything and adapt your strategy on the fly.
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Dec 21, 2014 05:11
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To be fair, CiV 5 Prora is basically supposed to be the whole thing actually getting finished and turned into something at least a bit nicer-looking than the lovely construction site that got looted by the Soviets and then left to rot.Pvt.Scott posted:E: Maybe a WWII movie about some heroic Wehrmacht soldiers or something? Cross of Iron is pretty good. Stalingrad (not the new russian one) is also pretty good. Downfall in a way. Bookwise, there's a slew of biographies and quasi-novels written by low-ranking soldiers like Rot schien die Sonne (a veteran of 1st Fallschirmjäger turned his experiences into a novel - from boot camp to being XO of a company of disableds trying to prevent the local SS commander from sacrificing them as a last futile gesture). Lazyfire posted:Young Lions has a story line that concerns a young German soldier who at first thinks the Nazis are good for Germany but later comes to hate what they and the war have done to the country. The movie adaptation of the book stars Marlon Brando in that role. I remember reading a IRL diary of a Waffen SS private that was publicised after his death that's basically this story. Can't remember the title or name anymore. One of the most depressing things I ever read - guy volunteered a few days before the war as a true believer ideologically (he considers the whole race thing a bit silly at times but is otherwise right on board) and you can read through the entries how the war and him witnessing atrocities just erodes his entire worldview. By '43 he's bitter, cynical, traumatised and just loving hates himself for having been dumb enough to believe any of it. The only reason he keeps fighting at all is that he's convinced that if the Soviets ever make it to Germany, they'd just wipe out everyone wholesale. Didn't make him out as him as a good person per se, but holy poo poo if it didn't made you feel at least some sympathy and pity for the guy. Magni fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 05:29
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Pulling six foreign legionnaires out of your rear end with Liberty is a good way to kick start your Freedom March.
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Dec 21, 2014 05:29
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A better "fascist wonder" would be the EUR district. Or maybe the Volkshalle.
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Dec 21, 2014 10:48
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You can also try the movie "The Bridge", or the book it's based on. In it, a group of Volkssturm-Teenagers is supposed to guard a bridge until the demolition squad arrives and blows it up before the american tanks arrive. Spoilers: It doesn't go so well.
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Dec 21, 2014 11:26
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Nuramor posted:You can also try the movie "The Bridge", or the book it's based on. Make sure it is the 1959 original and not the 2008 remake. Also, the well-known Das Boot was based on a novel by Lothar-Günther Buchheim, who had been a naval war correspondent during the war and based the narrative on his own experiences.
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Dec 21, 2014 11:41
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Kopijeger posted:A better "fascist wonder" would be the EUR district. Or maybe the Volkshalle. Then again, order could probably have something better than The Kremlin... like something actual commies built.
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Dec 21, 2014 14:37
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Sure, one of Stalin's bombastic skyscrapers would be a good fit. The most iconic one would probably be the MGU building.
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Dec 21, 2014 14:57
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JcDent posted:Then again, order could probably have something better than The Kremlin... like something actual commies built. I can forgive this one in Civ5's case. The Kremlin and Statue of Liberty were existing wonders from the game before the final expansion added the democracy/communism/fascism ideologies as a major thing, and I can understand why Firaxis didn't want to remove the Kremlin. It is a pretty iconic Russian/Soviet building.
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Dec 21, 2014 15:02
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Fanzay posted:No, that's only the first experiment. Milgram did several, and in fact, what the experiments show is that people expressly don't follow orders "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir". However, they will go to great lengths to do things that might be unpleasant if it is to further what they percieve to be a noble goal. I suggest listening to Radiolab's episode about it, titled "The Bad show". Huh. You learn something new every day. Thanks for that.
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Dec 21, 2014 17:14
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Magni posted:I remember reading a IRL diary of a Waffen SS private that was publicised after his death that's basically this story. Can't remember the title or name anymore. One of the most depressing things I ever read - guy volunteered a few days before the war as a true believer ideologically (he considers the whole race thing a bit silly at times but is otherwise right on board) and you can read through the entries how the war and him witnessing atrocities just erodes his entire worldview. By '43 he's bitter, cynical, traumatised and just loving hates himself for having been dumb enough to believe any of it. The only reason he keeps fighting at all is that he's convinced that if the Soviets ever make it to Germany, they'd just wipe out everyone wholesale. Didn't make him out as him as a good person per se, but holy poo poo if it didn't made you feel at least some sympathy and pity for the guy. I remember reading somewhere that the reason the Nazis invented the gas chambers was because they'd originally tried to send Waffen SS units to just mass-execute the people they considered undesirable, but the soldiers kept going insane from doing it. Accounts of attempts to manually execute people on the scale the Nazis intended to generally suggest that for the most part, even fanatical soldiers have a hard time doing it consistently. It should say a lot about the Nazis that they saw 'Hey even our craziest guys are having a hard time doing the things we tell them to do' as a problem to be solved by the simple expedient of granting some more psychological distance, rather than 'So maybe these are not good things.'
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Dec 21, 2014 17:25
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Kopijeger posted:Make sure it is the 1959 original and not the 2008 remake. THIS. So much this. Wrote a thesis paper on why the remake was utter garbage while the original won a bunch of international awards and is still a good movie today. gregory fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 17:25
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Night10194 posted:I remember reading somewhere that the reason the Nazis invented the gas chambers was because they'd originally tried to send Waffen SS units to just mass-execute the people they considered undesirable, but the soldiers kept going insane from doing it. Accounts of attempts to manually execute people on the scale the Nazis intended to generally suggest that for the most part, even fanatical soldiers have a hard time doing it consistently. More than likely they knew it wasn't a good thing, but thought that is was good for the unification of the rest of the people. For the greater good mentality if you will.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:11
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Night10194 posted:It should say a lot about the Nazis that they saw 'Hey even our craziest guys are having a hard time doing the things we tell them to do' as a problem to be solved by the simple expedient of granting some more psychological distance, rather than 'So maybe these are not good things.' WirelessPillow posted:More than likely they knew it wasn't a good thing, but thought that is was good for the unification of the rest of the people. For the greater good mentality if you will. I'd guess it's more that Hitler just didn't give a gently caress, the guy was pretty much completely off his rocker the entire war. Keep in mind, he was abjectly opposed to using chemical weapons against the soldiers or citizens of opposing nations because, even if most of his war record from WWI was forged, he did at least see first-hand the effects it had on people - and then he turned right around and had the concentration camps using them to execute their prisoners, because he didn't view them as human beings. It'd be far from the only weird or stupid decision he made during the war.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:52
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Kadorhal posted:I'd guess it's more that Hitler just didn't give a gently caress, the guy was pretty much completely off his rocker the entire war. Destroying the untermensch and the unworthy was kind of a big deal for Nazis, you know. That's why I hate various historical question like "well, what if Hitler hadn't killed jews?" "what if he had been friendly to the occupied Russian people" and so on, because that wouldn't be very Nazi of him.
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Dec 22, 2014 02:59
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JcDent posted:Destroying the untermensch and the unworthy was kind of a big deal for Nazis, you know. That's why I hate various historical question like "well, what if Hitler hadn't killed jews?" "what if he had been friendly to the occupied Russian people" and so on, because that wouldn't be very Nazi of him. how did the Italian alliance end up if they were against anyone not Aryan? And why did they end up using North Africans in their troops? It seems contradictory to the statements regarding what they wanted, or did Nazi ideals not fully extend past Germany?
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Dec 22, 2014 05:41
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WirelessPillow posted:how did the Italian alliance end up if they were against anyone not Aryan? And why did they end up using North Africans in their troops? The impression I had is that they usually made up some aryan mumbo jumbo about their allies being half aryan or something like that to explain how their allies weren't all to be shot on sight.
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Dec 22, 2014 05:51
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WirelessPillow posted:It seems contradictory to the statements regarding what they wanted, or did Nazi ideals not fully extend past Germany? Hi. Welcome to Nazism.
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Dec 22, 2014 05:52
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citybeatnik posted:Hi. Welcome to Nazism. Pretty much. The Nazi regime was crazy, racist, and crazy racist. But they were also pragmatic enough not to just start wildly shooting everyone who didn't match the Aryan ideal.
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Dec 22, 2014 06:19
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