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Americans have more student-loan debt than credit-card debt today - over $1 trillion. Most of it is held by the 22-40 age cohort, many of whom have too much outstanding debt to buy houses or new cars. But yeah, six figures of debt is worth it to be graded on your paper proving that you listened to your adjunct's analysis of Derrida.
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Dec 27, 2014 21:40
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maybe the problem is how expensive university is and not that kids want to go to university?
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Dec 27, 2014 21:42
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Miltank posted:maybe the problem is how expensive university is and not that kids want to go to university? It's both. Some people just aren't meant to be supported in their delusion that they are intellectuals.
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Dec 27, 2014 21:44
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SedanChair posted:Instead, let's destroy the status of the elites. There will be downsides but nothing so bad as your bigoted attitude. Sufficient repression should control any backlash. Isn't that about it? Reputation is what's really at stake for the very wealthy. For the inheritance issue, find a reasonable and small amount and allow it. So people find a way to take advantage of loopholes? Of course they do. Close the loopholes. It doesn't have to be immediate, it could be an iterative process. Close what seems obvious at first. Wait for people to abuse the remaining legal loopholes. Close those. Wait, repeat, and so on. How about use the funds currently being wasted drug enforcement and make it a war on money cheats. That's something everyone can get behind. And tie it to reputation, positive and negative. Name public buildings after those who leave behind piles of money for their society. And if anyone hates the rich? Get over it. I'd happily let my kids attend Koch University if it meant that the school was free and no little Koch ever get handed a few billion to continue being human plague. My Imaginary GF posted:They insulate the sr. executive management from insider trading and student bullshit. Definitely. It's the same structure as corporations. The layers are there so no one is truly accountable, there is always a "they". I would fix that and change this, but "they" won't let me. It extends up to the top of a corporate structure too, where you'd think it would end, but "they" inverts back around to the the bottom, shareholders, employees or students. I'd fix that and change this, but my employees/shareholders/students won't have it.
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Dec 27, 2014 21:59
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Get back to us when you've got that developed and successfully implemented, even on a small scale. ... how about you go read Will do. That said, please don't confuse my proposal for filtering as my solution. My proposal was, and still is, a return of Free Speech and Free Market. I don't care how you facilitate that, be it public funding, or match money from trust fund babies, new technologies, or one political party to rule them all. Take your pick. All I am saying is, our current "free" speech is like the sound of a tree falling in the empty woods. And our "free" market is also a class based system, due to financial barriers to mass communication, etc. Allow ideas, products, and politicians to stand on their own merits, End the Informational/Financial Civil War, Demand truth in advertising. Coke is not Happiness, Its not the number one movie of the year. Equal time, Fairness Doctrine, Reclaim the public airwaves. Then we will truly have Freedom. The freedom of choice. Then we can tell if we truly choose the abuse and destruction, Or if it is simply propaganda and fear of financial ruin masking the genocide. DBlanK fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Dec 27, 2014 |
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Dec 27, 2014 22:10
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quote:Free Speech and Free Market should be able to course correct everything. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktIzXU4N0Gk
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Dec 27, 2014 22:13
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Yes?
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Dec 27, 2014 22:16
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SedanChair posted:It's both. Some people just aren't meant to be supported in their delusion that they are intellectuals. Undergraduate education seems like a good place to figure that out.
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Dec 27, 2014 22:21
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Miltank posted:Undergraduate education seems like a good place to figure that out. That's what the education industry wants you to think. "Come drop tens of thousands of dollars a year to figure out what you want to be when you grow up."
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Dec 27, 2014 22:26
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It's funny how people pull out their good friend who makes a cool six figgies working as a welder (and how much overtime is he pulling, eh? That's what I want to know) to respond to the fact that people hold having a degree in higher esteem, hold jobs where you don't work with your hands in higher esteem, and believe that manufacturing is on its way out in the USA. Even if there were millions of jobs of slack capacity in terms of skilled trades to take on all the fools in non-STEM degrees, mind.
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Dec 27, 2014 22:29
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Miltank posted:Undergraduate education seems like a good place to figure that out. Properly supported trade schools that begin at 16 would be a better place for some to figure it out. Not that there's a lot of overlap between pomo tenure ghosts and people with a work ethic.
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Dec 27, 2014 22:39
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Smerdyakov posted:Uh, actually it costs about that much if you're in state and quite a bit more if you're out of state. if you want to go to a private liberal arts college you're looking at a minimum of 200k. Of course there are lots of good deals out there and scholarships and stuff, but on average the system of hugely inflated tuition offset by letting 18 year olds borrow six figure sums seems like a terrible idea for a lot of reasons. That's actually a 10-20% difference (e: from $100k I mean), but point taken. computer parts fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Dec 27, 2014 |
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Dec 27, 2014 22:42
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Effectronica posted:It's funny how people pull out their good friend who makes a cool six figgies working as a welder (and how much overtime is he pulling, eh? That's what I want to know) to respond to the fact that people hold having a degree in higher esteem, hold jobs where you don't work with your hands in higher esteem, and believe that manufacturing is on its way out in the USA. Even if there were millions of jobs of slack capacity in terms of skilled trades to take on all the fools in non-STEM degrees, mind. Higher esteem from which people? With most Creative Writing or Sanskrit BAs, I think 'my waiter' and/or 'debt serf.' Don't get me wrong - I love studying linguistics and history - but they are hobbies. Most liberal arts disciplines are professionally worthless without a PhD, and planning on a tenured career in academia these days is only slightly more realistic than planning on becoming a lottery winner. The esteem of your Boomer parents' social circle isn't worth a life of debt serfdom. That's what the Boomer elites who run the education industry want you to think. Can you imagine what it's like trying to pay $1000+ a month to service your student debt while working 25 hours a week at Starbucks?
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Dec 27, 2014 22:48
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DBlanK posted:Will do. That said, please don't confuse my proposal for filtering as my solution. "Return" means this has ever existed or could exist. Neither is the case.
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Dec 27, 2014 22:49
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TheImmigrant posted:That's what the education industry wants you to think. "Come drop tens of thousands of dollars a year to figure out what you want to be when you grow up." what if going to school was a good thing and having to pay 100k to do so was the bad thing?
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Dec 27, 2014 23:01
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Miltank posted:what if going to school was a good thing and having to pay 100k to do so was the bad thing? What if C-A-T really spelled 'cat?' My whole point here is that for many people, the economic significance of a university education is going deep into debt to transfer money to those who are already wealthy. Generationally, it's a massive transfer of wealth from Gen Y and Millenials to Boomers, who by and large still control higher education in the US. Sure, you get the illusory 'esteem' that comes with having done the busywork to earn a BA, but good luck servicing your debt with esteem and a part-time job where you earn peanuts.) Actually, it's more of a transfer of wealth from student loan originators to Boomers, via the conduit of students. Loan originators will make their money back handsomely due to interest, with no risk. This flies in the face of the entire idea of why we charge interest. Banks incur zero risk due to federal guarantees, yet charge interest according to the principle of risk in loaning. Universities can set tuition at whatever they like, since most 18-year olds have little concept of debt and risk-benefit analysis, have been bombarded with propaganda that a person is doomed without a college degree, and can generally borrow as much as they need for higher education. The only party on the hook in this whole dirty transaction is the student borrower. During the Clinton Administration, banks lobbied hard to eliminate student-loan discharge in bankruptcy, and got their wish. So, the trillion-plus in outstanding student loans is like herpes. Many student debtors will be crippled by debt into their 40s and 50s, but at least they have the 'esteem' that welders and plumbers lack! How many of you are currently servicing student debt? I was fortunate enough to emerge from undergrad school debt-free due to a scholarship, but pay just over $1000/month for my graduate degree. That's $13,000 a year. I know people who pay less than that for their mortgage, and they get equity for it.
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Dec 27, 2014 23:23
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Miltank posted:Undergraduate education seems like a good place to figure that out. Junior college in lieu of 11th/12th grade, paid for by school districts, seems like a good place to figure that out.
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Dec 27, 2014 23:26
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I think Sanskrit would be a pretty good career move actually. Haha what crude tropes TheImmigrant is playing with, anything that doesn't get oil out of the earth or involve tailored suits is just holding seances to channel Marx.
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Dec 27, 2014 23:29
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TheImmigrant posted:Higher esteem from which people? With most Creative Writing or Sanskrit BAs, I think 'my waiter' and/or 'debt serf.' Don't get me wrong - I love studying linguistics and history - but they are hobbies. Most liberal arts disciplines are professionally worthless without a PhD, and planning on a tenured career in academia these days is only slightly more realistic than planning on becoming a lottery winner. Well, frankly, I hold Gen-Xers in much lower esteem than Boomers, since at least some Boomers died at Kent State and in Vietnam while you fucks voted Reagan in again and cheered the destruction of welfare. But to answer your question, from themselves, their parents, and their social circle. The average person looks down on manual labor, and frankly, I bet you do too, even if it's somewhat higher for trades jobs than for the contemptible service worker. The average person respects a college degree, which is why they're considered materially relevant to many jobs even with English, history, forestry, chemistry, and other "useless" degrees. Furthermore, there's an easy solution that doesn't involve gigantic social engineering projects built around Stalinistic glorification of manual labor, or exalting working 60-70 hours a week even more than already happens.
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Dec 27, 2014 23:32
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Smerdyakov posted:This "after the revolution" thinking, and isn't good advice for a person who is actually 18 years right now rather than a member of a future society. You get a degree because it'll let you get your foot in the door for other things, not because it's actually necessary. For instance, if you want to go to medical school you have to have a college degree, even if your actual degree was in creative writing and you learned all the pre-med stuff working in a lab or something. No, not really, most high paying jobs in STEM really do use the stuff you learn, assuming you went to a college that wasn't complete poo poo at teaching. Miltank posted:maybe the problem is how expensive university is and not that kids want to go to university? No, there's also the problem that there simply are no jobs in the areas where the majority of people are graduating. tsa fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Dec 27, 2014 |
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Dec 27, 2014 23:37
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District Selectman posted:Isn't that about it? Reputation is what's really at stake for the very wealthy. This is just moving the problem one step along though. Without threat of physical violence* or death to the super rich how do you keep them quiet and compliant as you take all their money away? How do you stop them bribing legislators, hiring the best consultants and strategists money can buy (TBF Romney shows they can be fleeced on this but still), hiring private detectives or just using the tech companies they own or have connections to to collect all your communications and run rings around you? How do you gain or maintain public support to this in the first place? The population might poll negatively towards the rich but the population were also convinced to support massive tax cuts for the rich because of lies that inheritance tax causes families to lose control of their small farms. What do you do when opponents of inheritance tax and the war on *Not that violence is a solution either, if another group tried a Weather Underground style movement let alone something that might threaten the 1% they'd be slaughtered by local combat police in short order.
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Dec 27, 2014 23:56
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Effectronica posted:predictable and dismissable resentnik tropes quote:The average person looks down on manual labor, and frankly, I bet you do too, even if it's somewhat higher for trades jobs than for the contemptible service worker. I have a lot more respect for a plumber or a long-haul truck driver than I do for a theoryhead with a BA and no practical knowledge of anything. Service workers, well, I worked in restaurants and bars for over a decade before and during grad school (thanks to my liberal arts BAs), so I have a high degree of empathy for them too. quote:The average person respects a college degree, which is why they're considered materially relevant to many jobs even with English, history, forestry, chemistry, and other "useless" degrees. Are you sure about that? Your 'average person' might not match what I consider an average person. Blue-collar types tend to scorn eggheaded Philosophy graduates who couldn't tell you the difference between Phillips and flathead screwdrivers. HR types won't hire most unqualified liberal artistes without a hook or connection, and STEM types tend to think they are retarded dupes whose primary aptitude is abstract bullshit. That leaves Mom and Dad who are SO PROUD of your degree in Semiotics from Directional State University, and whose 401k portfolios benefit handsomely from SLABS whose value continues to grow the more students mortgage their futures to Sallie Mae. quote:Furthermore, there's an easy solution that doesn't involve gigantic social engineering projects built around Stalinistic glorification of manual labor, or exalting working 60-70 hours a week even more than already happens. Enlighten us with your easy solution.
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Dec 27, 2014 23:56
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Absurd Alhazred posted:"Return" means this has ever existed or could exist. Neither is the case. Time is money, and any form of communication will have some cost associated with it. But being free is not really about cost, instead the ability to speak AND BE HEARD by those willing. Perhaps nature can never live up to our ideals, but we can surely get a poo poo ton closer than this clusterfuck. Basically your right to happiness does not include the right to abuse other people, as if your right some how trumps theirs. There will always be some limitations on speech. However, the goal is that your right to speak and be heard by those willing to receive said speech are not violated. Currently we use the addiction of TV, Sports, Movies, Internet, etc as a means to allow certain people's "free" speech to be heard by those who are essentially coerced into listening, while at the same time completely ignoring popular public opinion. We must reclaim the public airwaves, the parks, and any other form of speech based mass manipulation, so we can verify they are not violating the rights of other people. Yes it will always cost something to bring a product to market. Resources, effort, etc. The notion of a free market is that the price of goods and services are set freely, by consent between sellers and consumers, following supply and demand. However, through the corruption of free speech, the supply and demand is manipulated. We don't know what products are out there and can therefore not see the supply, and artificial demand is created through profit fueled psychological manipulation. Competition is stifled, and we lose the ability to choose our own demands. What would the people spend money on if those products existed? What would people stop spending money on if there were alternatives? The realm of whats possible and wanted, vs whats offered and consumed are so disparate, its disturbing. When I say "return" I guess I mean a return to a time when it was a conscious effort to actually facilitate these ideals to the best of our ability.
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Dec 28, 2014 00:06
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TheImmigrant posted:I have a lot more respect for a plumber or a long-haul truck driver than I do for a theoryhead with a BA and no practical knowledge of anything. Service workers, well, I worked in restaurants and bars for over a decade before and during grad school (thanks to my liberal arts BAs), so I have a high degree of empathy for them too. Fascinating, then, that this is all just self-loathing twisted into urging people not to do what you did. Are you dissatisfied with your life? quote:Are you sure about that? Your 'average person' might not match what I consider an average person. Blue-collar types tend to scorn eggheaded Philosophy graduates who couldn't tell you the difference between Phillips and flathead screwdrivers. HR types won't hire most unqualified liberal artistes without a hook or connection, and STEM types tend to think they are retarded dupes whose primary aptitude is abstract bullshit. That leaves Mom and Dad who are SO PROUD of your degree in Semiotics from Directional State University, and whose 401k portfolios benefit handsomely from SLABS whose value continues to grow the more students mortgage their futures to Sallie Mae. I'm an "STEM type", you dipshit, and actually, most people in the real sciences look down on engineers and programmers more than on history majors or fine arts types. At least, this is judging from casual conversation. Blue-collar types may hate "eggheads" enough to zero in on the bastards in the liberal and fine arts over science majors or prissy engineers (not quite my experience, admittedly), HR types may greedily snap up biology majors, and once you graduate with a BS in Astronomy maybe you do become a raging rear end in a top hat. But in any case, what I get from your last sentence is that young people should kill their parents. Lol. quote:Enlighten us with your easy solution. Debt forgiveness and free tertiary education. These are policies other countries have in place, are mainly a matter of political will to implement, and involve very little shifting of people's fundamental beliefs, and what would shift wouldn't be in the insane direction you're espousing.
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Dec 28, 2014 00:11
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Effectronica posted:
This alone qualifies everything you have said up to this point, and people should listen and not insult you. I'm glad there are others out there who know whats up.
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Dec 28, 2014 00:12
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Effectronica posted:Fascinating, then, that this is all just self-loathing twisted into urging people not to do what you did. Are you dissatisfied with your life? Debt, and the unconscionable way in which the education industry encourages it, is my big concern. My liberal arts degrees were on full scholarship. Emerging from school without debt changes the analysis. I didn't have any serious job prospects with my undergrad degrees, but I didn't have life-ending debt hanging over my head either. I'm quite happy with my life, but I'm self-employed in a very narrow niche law practice. (I counsel against law school even more strongly for most people.) quote:I'm an "STEM type", you dipshit, and actually, most people in the real sciences look down on engineers and programmers more than on history majors or fine arts types. At least, this is judging from casual conversation. Blue-collar types may hate "eggheads" enough to zero in on the bastards in the liberal and fine arts over science majors or prissy engineers (not quite my experience, admittedly), HR types may greedily snap up biology majors, and once you graduate with a BS in Astronomy maybe you do become a raging rear end in a top hat. But in any case, what I get from your last sentence is that young people should kill their parents. Lol. Why do you sound so angry all the time? Lighten up, Francis. No, I don't advocate killing Boomers. I do take their 'esteem' over a worthless degree with a grain of salt though, since the American economy has changed quite significantly since they had to weigh the pros and cons of a university education, and most of them aren't aware of just how. Seeking understanding from that generation for the student debt crisis is akin to expecting them to appreciate St. Vincent's latest album or Quentin Tarantino's films. quote:Debt forgiveness and free tertiary education. These are policies other countries have in place, are mainly a matter of political will to implement, and involve very little shifting of people's fundamental beliefs, and what would shift wouldn't be in the insane direction you're espousing. That's great. I also want a pet unicorn that can shoot powerful lasers from its eyes and breathe fire to incinerate my enemies on telepathic command. By the way, what's the insane direction I'm espousing? Up to this point, I've been criticizing the belief that there is no dollar value too high for a BA degree. If you asked what affirmative solution I have to runaway tuition and ballooning student debt, I would a) end federal guarantees for student loans, and b) make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy once again. This would shift the risk back to lenders, where it belongs. With universities unable to use students as ATMs for federally-backed loans any longer, they would be forced to lower tuition to reasonable levels. No one has 'free' tertiary education. Much of Europe has tertiary education that is affordable for the student, most of which is paid for by other means. Nothing is 'free.' Even France charges fees to attend university, although they are much more reasonable than what we have in the States.
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Dec 28, 2014 00:31
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TheImmigrant posted:Debt, and the unconscionable way in which the education industry encourages it, is my big concern. My liberal arts degrees were on full scholarship. Emerging from school without debt changes the analysis. I didn't have any serious job prospects with my undergrad degrees, but I didn't have life-ending debt hanging over my head either. I'm quite happy with my life, but I'm self-employed in a very narrow niche law practice. (I counsel against law school even more strongly for most people.) Funnily enough, you're pure poo poo at communicating electronically as far as I can tell, since what's coming across is a lot of sneering about those goddamn liberal arts majors and whining about the previous generations. quote:Why do you sound so angry all the time? Lighten up, Francis. No, I don't advocate killing Boomers. I do take their 'esteem' over a worthless degree with a grain of salt though, since the American economy has changed quite significantly since they had to weigh the pros and cons of a university education, and most of them aren't aware of just how. Seeking understanding from that generation for the student debt crisis is akin to expecting them to appreciate St. Vincent's latest album or Quentin Tarantino's films. I sound angry because you're an rear end in a top hat and I don't want to be polite to you. I think that you're going about this in such a backwards way that I also don't want to explain that I was talking about why people go for college degrees and that in order to change things away from the current trends you need to address these factors instead of brutal contempt for the average American. quote:That's great. I also want a pet unicorn that can shoot powerful lasers from its eyes and breathe fire to incinerate my enemies on telepathic command. No you haven't. You've been pulling out the old saws about skilled trades and "STEM", that is, engineering and programming, far more than anything else. Getting people to view plumbing as prestigious requires a Stalinistic glorification of manual labor that even the USSR never really committed to, and the fact that drawing lots of jack from those jobs requires lengthy overtime means glorifying the 70-hour workweek in order to keep people from gazing enviously at 70k/year office jobs where you can go home by six. This is not a direction I, as one of the "Che brigade", think the world should go in. But now that you've brought out your "actual" opinion, I'd like to point out that it relies on the assumption that universities are raising tuition for no reason, rather than to cover the increased size of their student bodies and the lack of state and direct federal funding. If that isn't the case, chopping Stafford loans just means that fewer people will get into college period (and of course firing lecturers, cutting TA positions, leaving expanded dorms and lecture halls and the like to rot) as universities are unable to afford teaching them. The fact that you started up on haruffing about how nothing is free makes it pretty clear you won't accept that someone would use "free" as a metonym for "fees are kept essentially nominal to ensure all students have access to university education", so I'll just imagine you standing in a Wal-mart and bitching at people for mentioning "buy one get one free" sales.
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Dec 28, 2014 00:47
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Effectronica posted:Funnily enough, you're pure poo poo at communicating electronically as far as I can tell, since what's coming across is a lot of sneering about those goddamn liberal arts majors and whining about the previous generations. Maybe you are just a poor reader. My spleen is reserved for rapacious university admins and banks. quote:I sound angry because you're an rear end in a top hat and I don't want to be polite to you. I think that you're going about this in such a backwards way that I also don't want to explain that I was talking about why people go for college degrees and that in order to change things away from the current trends you need to address these factors instead of brutal contempt for the average American. Lighten up, Francis. quote:No you haven't. You've been pulling out the old saws about skilled trades and "STEM", that is, engineering and programming, far more than anything else. Getting people to view plumbing as prestigious requires a Stalinistic glorification of manual labor that even the USSR never really committed to, and the fact that drawing lots of jack from those jobs requires lengthy overtime means glorifying the 70-hour workweek in order to keep people from gazing enviously at 70k/year office jobs where you can go home by six. This is not a direction I, as one of the "Che brigade", think the world should go in. A healthy, non-teenaged person doesn't need validation of his or her work by random muppets. Fact is, an 'unprestigious' plumber will usually have a much better quality of life than a bartender or file clerk, both in terms of income and debt. quote:But now that you've brought out your "actual" opinion, I'd like to point out that it relies on the assumption that universities are raising tuition for no reason, rather than to cover the increased size of their student bodies and the lack of state and direct federal funding. If that isn't the case, chopping Stafford loans just means that fewer people will get into college period (and of course firing lecturers, cutting TA positions, leaving expanded dorms and lecture halls and the like to rot) as universities are unable to afford teaching them. Universities in the US are not these benevolent nurturers that you seem to think they are. Even the public state schools offer misleading statistics and flat-out lies to attract students, and more importantly, their federally-guaranteed loan money. Their tactics arguably constitute fraud in the inducement, although universities are still sacred cows in this society, as demonstrated by your reflexive defense of anything they do. Fact is that too many people go to college in the US right now. Many of them will suffer serious adverse effects from drinking the Kool-Aid and acting on the belief that any university education at any price is always a good thing.
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Dec 28, 2014 01:00
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ReV VAdAUL posted:This is just moving the problem one step along though. Without threat of physical violence* or death to the super rich how do you keep them quiet and compliant as you take all their money away? How do you stop them bribing legislators, hiring the best consultants and strategists money can buy (TBF Romney shows they can be fleeced on this but still), hiring private detectives or just using the tech companies they own or have connections to to collect all your communications and run rings around you? How do you gain or maintain public support to this in the first place? The population might poll negatively towards the rich but the population were also convinced to support massive tax cuts for the rich because of lies that inheritance tax causes families to lose control of their small farms. This sounds gross, but it all needs to be marketed better. US conservatives have been so much better at this than US liberals for so long. How loving genius is it to market loving estate taxes for absurdly wealthy as death taxes that will bankrupt good ol' American farmers? But there are some wins. Here we are in 2014 and something like legal weed is real and has somehow been judo'ed into something that many conservatives are getting behind, supposedly because it makes money and free market. I cannot believe anything other than some really smart people did a really good job at marketing weed legalization and knew what to spin it as. I'm not pretending to be that smart and I'm not in advertising. Something has to come along that allows you judo some segment of the population into agreeing with your position. I don't think that something is violence in the US in 2015. That's why I think the War on Tax Cheats might be at least an ok idea, and you could use that to beef up revenue collection enforcement or something, and then maybe use that to simplify the tax code, close loopholes and so on. Maybe the estate tax is the last thing to go. poo poo, if we ever end the war on drugs, the prison system is going to be thirsty for prisoners. Sell them the tax cheating rich.
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Dec 28, 2014 01:14
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TheImmigrant posted:Maybe you are just a poor reader. My spleen is reserved for rapacious university admins and banks. Oh, this is you being polite, then? I guess when I start hearing a vast sucking sound I'll know you're finally venting. quote:Lighten up, Francis. Be more polite if you want people to be nice to you. quote:A healthy, non-teenaged person doesn't need validation of his or her work by random muppets. Fact is, an 'unprestigious' plumber will usually have a much better quality of life than a bartender or file clerk, both in terms of income and debt. Quality of life being a function of income and debt solely tells me a lot about you, and explains most of your responses. In any case, I'm not comparing plumbers to bartenders. quote:Universities in the US are not these benevolent nurturers that you seem to think they are. Even the public state schools offer misleading statistics and flat-out lies to attract students, and more importantly, their federally-guaranteed loan money. Their tactics arguably constitute fraud in the inducement, although universities are still sacred cows in this society, as demonstrated by your reflexive defense of anything they do. Fact is that too many people go to college in the US right now. Many of them will suffer serious adverse effects from drinking the Kool-Aid and acting on the belief that any university education at any price is always a good thing. Yes, okay, the decline in state funding and the increase in enrollment has nothing to do with real increases in tuition, and universities are salting all their money away, not even pouring it into prestige projects. This isn't even necessary for your real argument, which is that only a few people should go to university. That's what I even said was one of the consequences of your approach in my view, so all this was bullshit you could have avoided by saying, "Yes, I believe that fewer people should go to universities in the United States."
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Dec 28, 2014 01:32
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Effectronica posted:Quality of life being a function of income and debt solely tells me a lot about you, and explains most of your responses. In any case, I'm not comparing plumbers to bartenders. Quality of life being a function of the prestige that strangers accord your profession tells me a lot about you. And I will absolutely stand by my assertion that earning $60,000 a year at a trade with minimal debt is preferable, in terms of quality of life, to earning $35,000 a year with $100,000 of debt without any equity in anything, but a BA with much 'esteem.' quote:Yes, okay, the decline in state funding and the increase in enrollment has nothing to do with real increases in tuition, and universities are salting all their money away, not even pouring it into prestige projects. This isn't even necessary for your real argument, which is that only a few people should go to university. That's what I even said was one of the consequences of your approach in my view, so all this was bullshit you could have avoided by saying, "Yes, I believe that fewer people should go to universities in the United States." Do you disagree with the idea that too many people matriculate at colleges and universities in the US? I'd much prefer the German system.
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Dec 28, 2014 01:37
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Naw, effectronica is right about you, you sould more like an anti-intellectual dipshit than someone who thinks there is a real problem with university admin
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Dec 28, 2014 01:43
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B-but it's so hard being white! Waaaaaagh!
TheImmigrant posted:Quality of life being a function of the prestige that strangers accord your profession tells me a lot about you. And I will absolutely stand by my assertion that earning $60,000 a year at a trade with minimal debt is preferable, in terms of quality of life, to earning $35,000 a year with $100,000 of debt without any equity in anything, but a BA with much 'esteem.' I never said that at any point, nor am I comparing plumbers and bartenders. Unless you know of jobs where you can make 70 grand a year doing filing, in which case please let me know so I can get my kid sister a job. However, a 70k job where you work 50 hours a week is not so obviously worse than a 100k job where you work 70 hours a week. If you want to have a family, for example, it's a difficult tradeoff, isn't it? quote:Do you disagree with the idea that too many people matriculate at colleges and universities in the US? I'd much prefer the German system. I can't actually answer this with yes or no and I feel assured that you'll ignore any qualifications so I'm going to respond with option three: go piss up a rope. But just in case, I do disagree with the idea that too many people go to colleges or graduate from colleges, with a lot of qualifications that I won't bother writing.
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Dec 28, 2014 01:44
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God forbid that the youth of today have higher aspirations than working with poo poo-filled pipes 70 hours a week for the rest of their miserable wage slave lives
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Dec 28, 2014 01:48
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TheImmigrant posted:Quality of life being a function of the prestige that strangers accord your profession tells me a lot about you. And I will absolutely stand by my assertion that earning $60,000 a year at a trade with minimal debt is preferable, in terms of quality of life, to earning $35,000 a year with $100,000 of debt without any equity in anything, but a BA with much 'esteem.' Given that 60k is well above the median household income in the US, methinks you are not comparing two realistic scenarios.
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Dec 28, 2014 01:52
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Effectronica posted:I'm an "STEM type", you dipshit, and actually, most people in the real sciences look down on engineers and programmers more than on history majors or fine arts types. At least, this is judging from casual conversation. Yep, the god complex that many in the engineering fields seem to have doesn't exactly match up to the difficulty of their chosen profession. I bounced between a few majors in undergrad, and out of Evolutionary Bio, English - CW, and Computer Science I would have to say that the latter was by far the least intellectually engaging. Applied Sciences are all well and good, but they're not the end-all be-all of education.
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Dec 28, 2014 02:42
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You should all be plumbers.  But not I; I need time to post on the forums.
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Dec 28, 2014 04:24
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Vaginapocalypse posted:God forbid that the youth of today have higher aspirations than working with poo poo-filled pipes 70 hours a week for the rest of their miserable wage slave lives I seriously respect the plumber, and any handy man/woman for that matter. I think it's perfectly fine to aspire to help people build things, and fix things when they break.
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Dec 28, 2014 05:20
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DBlanK posted:I seriously respect the plumber, and any handy man/woman for that matter. No one's aspiring to it though, it's "we have TOO MANY people going to college so some of them have to go somewhere else". And you're not going to see a rich man's son become a plumber.
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Dec 28, 2014 05:23
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420DD Butts posted:Yep, the god complex that many in the engineering fields seem to have doesn't exactly match up to the difficulty of their chosen profession. I bounced between a few majors in undergrad, and out of Evolutionary Bio, English - CW, and Computer Science I would have to say that the latter was by far the least intellectually engaging. Applied Sciences are all well and good, but they're not the end-all be-all of education. I don't really disagree but in terms of 'education leading to a profession directly related to the economy' applied sciences of every kind are pretty much at the top of the ladder both in terms of intellectual effort and (I think) average financial return (I said I think because my guess would be that education that helps get into the more lucrative management positions is probably a bit of a gamble and probably ends up being less rewarding on average, but that's just my instinct and it may not be correct). That isn't meant as a dig at theoretical science, theoretical science is awesome but the number of people we can sit in a lab doing fuzzy things isn't something that is really very well driven by markets so it's almost always going to be the product of public policy. What this means is that if your interest in getting an education is primarily to get a big financial return your best bet is probably going to be in some form of applied science because there are a ton of high paying jobs available for engineers, physicians, computer scientists, pharmaceutical scientists, etc. In terms of intellectual stimulation though I think it's also worth mentioning that in something like computer science you can get more out of it if you're willing to put more into it. It may be difficult to participate in creative writing without really challenging yourself and evolutionary biology is multi-disciplinary to an extent that if you come at it head on you have a poo poo-ton to learn but if you go at computer science with some purpose other than getting a job as a web applications developer then it can be just as challenging and rewarding. On the other hand it does give you that option and you'll get job offers even before finishing your CS degree whereas if your goal is to be a scientist or professor (or both) you'll need to do another 4-6 years of school afterwards and really you'd better plan on being pretty drat smart if you want to mainly be pursuing your own interests rather than doing what someone else wants you to (which I'm assuming is a big part of the goal, here).
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Dec 28, 2014 05:27
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