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What is it with Ravens fans parachuting in and knowing nothing about baseball?
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Jan 6, 2015 21:29
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Tater Love 
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El Gallinero Gros posted:I mean if you wanna be slightly more contemporary, Dave Concepcion made it in and Vizquel was a bit better with the bat. Dave Concepcion is not in the Hall of Fame, he topped out at 16.9%. Furthermore: Dave Concepcion wRC+: 88 Omar Vizquel wRC+: 83 (Brooks Robinson was 104, Ozzie Smith was 90.) Like, if you want to make a case on "as good as some of the biggest mistakes in the Hall" then enjoy electing Nomar and Miguel Tejada and Jimmy Rollins too, but I don't think that's a consistent or reasonable metric.
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Jan 6, 2015 21:32
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Davey Conception is only in the hall of fame that exists entirely in Joe Morgan's head.
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Jan 6, 2015 21:33
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I don't know why this bothers me as much as it does but here is a list of players better than Omar Vizquel that played during the same "Generation" as Omar Visquel: Nomar Garciapara, Miguel Tejada, Cal Ripken, Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, Barry Larkin, Jimmy Rollins. One of the best shortstops of his generation!!!
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Jan 6, 2015 21:34
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Ironically, Omar Vizquel's fWAR is a half-win lower than Rabbit Maranville.
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Jan 6, 2015 21:40
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Some very subtle trolling going on in this thread today.
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Jan 6, 2015 21:40
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quote:Bruce Levine @MLBBruceLevine 19m19 minutes ago 
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Jan 6, 2015 21:48
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45 out of 162. Jeez.
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Jan 6, 2015 21:51
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So is that WGN Chicago the local station or WGN America the cable network?
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Jan 6, 2015 21:58
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Since when is the Hall of Fame about raw numbers? Vizquel was a way better defender than most (or all) of those shortstops you named. I think he was the second best glove at shortshop during the period, behind Ozzie. Why can't a guy who played nearly a quarter of a century, put up above average offensive numbers, and was one of the top 3 defenders at his position for the period get consideration for the Hall of Fame?
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Jan 6, 2015 22:00
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Tedd_Not_Ed posted:So is that WGN Chicago the local station or WGN America the cable network? Oh crap I assumed it'd be on WGN-A. Bleed Cubbie Blue says no, only WGN Chicago.
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Jan 6, 2015 22:00
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Komet posted:Since when is the Hall of Fame about raw numbers? Vizquel was a way better defender than most (or all) of those shortstops you named. I think he was the second best glove at shortshop during the period, behind Ozzie. Why can't a guy who played nearly a quarter of a century, put up above average offensive numbers, and was one of the top 3 defenders at his position for the period get consideration for the Hall of Fame? Because it's the hall of fame, not the hall of "being good at one half of the game". Especially the half that matters way, way less.
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Jan 6, 2015 22:02
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Komet posted:Since when is the Hall of Fame about raw numbers? Vizquel was a way better defender than most (or all) of those shortstops you named. I think he was the second best glove at shortshop during the period, behind Ozzie. Why can't a guy who played nearly a quarter of a century, put up above average offensive numbers, and was one of the top 3 defenders at his position for the period get consideration for the Hall of Fame? Because he didn't put up even average numbers?
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Jan 6, 2015 22:06
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Neither did Ozzie Smith. Does Ozzie Smith belong in the Hall of Fame?
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Jan 6, 2015 22:07
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Ozzie smith was both better with the bat, and a much better defender.
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Jan 6, 2015 22:08
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Komet posted:Neither did Ozzie Smith. Does Ozzie Smith belong in the Hall of Fame? Ozzie Smith is considered literally the greatest defensive shortstop of all time
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Jan 6, 2015 22:09
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If you want to make his case based on defense I would probably compare him to someone who was not quite possibly the best defensive player in the history of the sport, because that one is not going to be kind to him. Also for all Ozzie's limitations he was still a significantly better hitter. Just loving stop it, Komet.
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Jan 6, 2015 22:10
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Pro title change
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Jan 6, 2015 22:14
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I know Ozzie is the greatest defensive shortstop ever, like Brooks Robinson is the greatest third baseman ever (both of whom were merely average hitters). Ozzie's batting stats aren't "significantly" better. They are fairly comparable. But Vizquel did win 9 Gold Gloves in a row followed by another 2 in the mid-2000s. As I said, I think he was the second best defensive shortstop during the era. And I think that's good enough for the Hall.
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Jan 6, 2015 22:17
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it's not
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Jan 6, 2015 22:19
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Omar Vizquel's defensive numbers are clearly the result of years of steroid abuse. Groucho Marxist posted:it's not e: also this notion that he is the 2nd best defensive shortstop of his generation is extremely generous. He played in the same generation as Cal Ripken. Paul Zuvella fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Jan 6, 2015 |
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Jan 6, 2015 22:20
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Ah yes, gold glove, the true measure of how good defensively a player is *Jetes wins 5 of them* e: My bad, 6 of them
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Jan 6, 2015 22:20
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Paul Zuvella posted:I don't know why this bothers me as much as it does but here is a list of players better than Omar Vizquel that played during the same "Generation" as Omar Visquel: Jimmy Rollins is probably a HoFer and I don't think he'll get any consideration at all.
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Jan 6, 2015 22:21
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Paul Zuvella posted:Omar Vizquel's defensive numbers are clearly the result of years of steroid abuse. I'm an Orioles fan and I idolized Ripken growing up, and I will readily admit that Vizquel was better defensively.
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Jan 6, 2015 22:26
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Komet posted:I know Ozzie is the greatest defensive shortstop ever, like Brooks Robinson is the greatest third baseman ever (both of whom were merely average hitters). Ozzie's batting stats aren't "significantly" better. They are fairly comparable. But Vizquel did win 9 Gold Gloves in a row followed by another 2 in the mid-2000s. As I said, I think he was the second best defensive shortstop during the era. And I think that's good enough for the Hall. The best 3B of all time is Michael Jack Schmidt
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Jan 6, 2015 22:37
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Harlock posted:What happens to us in the future? Do we become assholes or something? Become?
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Jan 6, 2015 22:52
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If you want to make it into the Hall of Fame based entirely on defense, you also need to hit at least one Game 7 World Series winning dinger.
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Jan 6, 2015 22:54
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Intruder posted:Ah yes, gold glove, the true measure of how good defensively a player is *Jetes wins 5 of them* Headley has one which I find hilarious considering he's pretty run of the mill in my opinion and I think statistically too. How do they even decide them these days?
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Jan 6, 2015 22:56
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Komet posted:I'm an Orioles fan and I idolized Ripken growing up, and I will readily admit that Vizquel was better defensively. Even if he was better defensively, 30 loving points of OPS+ (seriously) is a whole lot of difference.
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Jan 6, 2015 22:56
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thompson posted:Headley has one which I find hilarious considering he's pretty run of the mill in my opinion and I think statistically too. How do they even decide them these days? Voted on by the managers and coaches, hence Rafael "Vitamin B12" Palmeiro winning a GG while appearing in 130 games as a DH one year.
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Jan 6, 2015 22:58
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Angry Grimace posted:If you want to make it into the Hall of Fame based entirely on defense, you also need to hit at least one Game 7 World Series winning dinger. Also do a rad backflip
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Jan 6, 2015 22:58
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This conversation kind of makes me wonder how Scott Rolen will do when he comes up.
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Jan 6, 2015 23:00
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Paul Zuvella posted:Omar Vizquel's defensive numbers are clearly the result of years of steroid abuse. This man is correct. Ripken doesn't get a lot of credit because of how big he was but advanced and traditional stats love him.
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Jan 6, 2015 23:05
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Zythrst posted:This conversation kind of makes me wonder how Scott Rolen will do when he comes up. Poorly. The Hall hates 3b for whatever reason, and Rolen spent the second half of his career being a shadow of his former self after Alex Cintron and Hee-Seop Choi bashed into him repeatedly. As a result, he doesn't really have the counting stats, either. Interestingly, I think he has a better case than Jim Edmonds, but I think Edmonds has a better chance of getting in (though I don't think either will.) e: Adrian Beltre's another interesting case, and there's a decent chance he has 3000 hits by the time he hangs 'em up. Was never the best at his position, but was above average for a while (Seattle was weird) before a monster bounceback in his 30s as a Ranger. FairGame fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Jan 6, 2015 |
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Jan 6, 2015 23:06
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FairGame posted:Poorly. The Hall hates 3b for whatever reason, and Rolen spent the second half of his career being a shadow of his former self after Alex Cintron and Hee-Seop Choi bashed into him repeatedly. As a result, he doesn't really have the counting stats, either. Interestingly, I think he has a better case than Jim Edmonds, but I think Edmonds has a better chance of getting in (though I don't think either will.) Also, everybody who votes for the hall is like 80 so they haven't actually watched a baseball game since 1999 or so.
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Jan 6, 2015 23:09
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I'm still really interested to see if Trevor Hoffman can make it in on the first ballot next year. He's always going to exist in Rivera's shadow and being the first guy to break the save record kind of doesn't matter when the guy with the save record isn't in the Hall of Fame to begin with.
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Jan 6, 2015 23:11
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Angry Grimace posted:I'm still really interested to see if Trevor Hoffman can make it in on the first ballot next year. He's always going to exist in Rivera's shadow and being the first guy to break the save record kind of doesn't matter when the guy with the save record isn't in the Hall of Fame to begin with. saves are bullshit hth also discard two cards at random plz
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Jan 6, 2015 23:12
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Angry Grimace posted:I'm still really interested to see if Trevor Hoffman can make it in on the first ballot next year. He's always going to exist in Rivera's shadow and being the first guy to break the save record kind of doesn't matter when the guy with the save record isn't in the Hall of Fame to begin with. He has a very similar case to Lee Smith, imo, when it comes to saves except Smith held the record for much longer. Smith had more career strikeouts and a lower ERA. Hoffman has a better career ERA+ but about 3 HoF voters know how to read that stat.
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Jan 6, 2015 23:15
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I have spent way too much time recently looking at Vizquel's stats and he is not a hall of famer. Interestingly I've also spent a ton of time comparing his stats to Concepcion and Vizquel is so much worse as a hitter that his defense doesn't make up for being a offensive black hole.
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Jan 6, 2015 23:19
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tadashi posted:He has a very similar case to Lee Smith, imo, when it comes to saves except Smith held the record for much longer. Smith had more career strikeouts and a lower ERA. Hoffman has a better career ERA+ but about 3 HoF voters know how to read that stat. The idea he's not getting in at all is pretty out there, I think. He's getting in, its just a question of whether he gets in immediately. The save might be a bullshit stat, but so are a lot of stats that voters care about and Hoffman broke Smith's record by about 125.
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Jan 6, 2015 23:20
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