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Byers2142 posted:Again, you'll need to explain for me to understand, because I don't see an effect. Plus, Amoeba is the one who changed the map; how does that reflect on f_v's alignment? Byers, can you talk more about your thought process here? Given that we knew that someone changed the map through a day action, your skepticism re: the map-change actually having affected the game is baffling. Of course it has, but not everybody knows how, and that should be obvious? The second line here especially looks a lot like fishing - you're demanding an explanation and threatening to put someone on your shitlist (but not making a call on their alignment).
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Jan 9, 2015 03:15
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fiery_valkyrie posted:So I'm scum because I'm not posting 100% serious mafia all the time? If the game was at a point where there was some serious discussion going on and I interrupted it to distract with no content posts that would be one thing, but look at the context of the thread when I made those comments. I posted a theory about why someone else might have thought you wee scummy, Not even voting you, and you feel the need to react by writing something meticulously trying to discredit every element of it with a paragraph. This kind of defensiveness Makes me think I'm on the right track. Are you seriously suggesting you couldn't be expected to assume that a day action actually did something that only some players might know, so "how could you be role fishing?" ##vote fiery_valkyrie
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Jan 9, 2015 03:41
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KhyrosFinalCut posted:Are you seriously suggesting you couldn't be expected to assume that a day action actually did something that only some players might know, so "how could you be rolefishing Yes, I'm seriously telling you that it never even occurred to me as an option.
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Jan 9, 2015 03:56
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KhyrosFinalCut posted:I posted a theory about why someone else might have thought you wee scummy, Not even voting you, and you feel the need to react by writing something meticulously trying to discredit every element of it with a paragraph. This kind of defensiveness Makes me think I'm on the right track. Why wouldn't I defend myself? You might not have voted me but you were sure as hell not calling me town.
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Jan 9, 2015 04:03
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Pinterest Mom posted:Byers, can you talk more about your thought process here? Given that we knew that someone changed the map through a day action, your skepticism re: the map-change actually having affected the game is baffling. Of course it has, but not everybody knows how, and that should be obvious? Combination of two things; one, I didn't consider that the map change might have an impact on roles, because it had none on mine. Two, WO used the map change to case f_v and since the only thing I saw different was flavor, I thought he was making a flavor argument. So I tried to figure out what the hell he was talking about, and threatened him in advance if it was a flavor argument because in that situation, making a purely flavor-based case on f_v would deserve a bullet. Now that I understand what he meant? It's a bad case. Not scummy, just bad. For people affected, it seems obvious that the map change was important or whatever, but for those who weren't there's two ways to consider it: assume it's important and you don't know why, or ignore it. I ignored it, f_v and Amoeba both questioned what might have happened. It's not a scum tell to wonder what effect a day action may have had. f_v's scum, but casing based on a general WTF reason isn't a good case. Especially not using WO's given logic (if scum aren't affected by it, they can't know to rolefish, so you can't both look for scum to be unaffected and want to case them for rolefishing).
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Jan 9, 2015 04:14
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KhyrosFinalCut posted:I posted a theory about why someone else might have thought you wee scummy, Not even voting you, and you feel the need to react by writing something meticulously trying to discredit every element of it with a paragraph. This kind of defensiveness Makes me think I'm on the right track. I disagree about the map change casing, but I really like KFC's case that looks at f_v's reaction to it. It's a combination of rapid fire posts and that point by point rebuttal, and it does feel desperate. It also allows f_v to defend against the worst case made against here (map change) and not the better cases laid out yesterday (interactions with YPM, Rarity, and Somber).
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Jan 9, 2015 04:17
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There's a difference between defending yourself, which you could've done by saying "Yeah, that's not what was up, I just wanted to know what happened." and Writing multiple sentences to attack every part of what I brought up -- 2 sentences on the idea of padding.* (also the "if I was doing _this_ I'd be scummy, but I'm not, so I'm not" phrasing/structure pings my gut) and then like 5 more to talk about how big a stretch it is that WO is making some kind of claim (It's not a stretch at all and I was right) and then how silly the idea that you were possibly rolefishing is (hint: it's not). fiery_valkyrie posted:Yes, I'm seriously telling you that it never even occurred to me as an option.
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Jan 9, 2015 04:21
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a) I'm not scum b) I haven't replied to YPM or yourself Byers because I'm phone posting from work and had more that I wanted to say/quote than I can easily do this way c) I'm not scum
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Jan 9, 2015 04:22
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Byers2142 posted:Especially not using WO's given logic (if scum aren't affected by it, they can't know to rolefish, so you can't both look for scum to be unaffected and want to case them for rolefishing). My thoughts were more along the line of scum trying to figure out exactly what the map change did, and the rolefishing being more of effectfishing if that makes sense. Sorry, I'm not good at explaining what I mean.
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Jan 9, 2015 04:26
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did i #vote valary yet
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Jan 9, 2015 04:27
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KhyrosFinalCut posted:There's a difference between defending yourself, which you could've done by saying "Yeah, that's not what was up, I just wanted to know what happened." and Writing multiple sentences to attack every part of what I brought up -- 2 sentences on the idea of padding.* (also the "if I was doing _this_ I'd be scummy, but I'm not, so I'm not" phrasing/structure pings my gut) That's how I write. Using a different number of words than you would doesn't make me scum. KhyrosFinalCut posted:That strains credibility. Why would a mod have a day action that triggered public flavor and did NOTHING else? Pmom's already commented on how strange this was coming from Byers. I don't know why a mod would have a day action that did nothing but trigger flavour. That's why I asked if there wasn't an effect. Because I didn't see one. Is it really so incredulous for me to have not assumed that there would be private effects? How is it scummy to have not assumed this?
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Jan 9, 2015 04:27
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valary does it make you mad to know that im not really reading your posts or anyone elses and am just going by my first impression which you will never be able to change no matter what you do or how convincingly you post
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Jan 9, 2015 04:28
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uranus posted:valary does it make you mad to know that im not really reading your posts or anyone elses and am just going by my first impression which you will never be able to change no matter what you do or how convincingly you post No, because I've played with you plenty of times before. Keep on trucking.
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Jan 9, 2015 04:30
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KhyrosFinalCut posted:That strains credibility. Why would a mod have a day action that triggered public flavor and did NOTHING else? Pmom's already commented on how strange this was coming from Byers. To be fair, why would a mod have a Godfather in a game without a cop? Why would a mod have an insane cop? To play with the idea of an informed minority/uninformed majority through misinformation. I've been in games where the mods have given out day actions that did nothing, sometimes with superficial effects to them. f_v's initial reaction to the map change was a null tell, but I agree with the rest of what you're saying.
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Jan 9, 2015 04:37
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Winged Orpheus posted:My thoughts were more along the line of scum trying to figure out exactly what the map change did, and the rolefishing being more of effectfishing if that makes sense. Sorry, I'm not good at explaining what I mean. That makes more sense. Now, why is it a scum tell to want to know the effect? That's the part I'm not getting; someone trying to learn what was affected by a day action is a null tell. At best, you could make the argument that all it tells us is that Amoeba and f_v can't be scumbros, or else why ask in the thread, but even that's a weak argument to make with other supporting evidence to shore it up.
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Jan 9, 2015 04:41
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uranus posted:valary does it make you mad to know that im not really reading your posts or anyone elses and am just going by my first impression which you will never be able to change no matter what you do or how convincingly you post Keep up, spacebutt, you established D1 that Allen's the one that you make mad. I mean, gently caress.
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Jan 9, 2015 04:42
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fiery_valkyrie posted:Is it really so incredulous for me to have not assumed that there would be private effects? How is it scummy to have not assumed this? Yes, it is -- My first thought after seeing the the result of the day action as only flavor was "Well I bet that did something for someone" -- mostly because I wasn't directly impacted myself. Not thinking about it is extremely dumb, and prodding people for information about is anti-town. What are the possible outcomes of this mysterious thing having happened? a) It helped a town PR/the town - possibly negated or lessened by the scum becoming aware of this/who/how b) it hurt a town PR/the town - exacerbated by the scum becoming aware of this/who/how c) it helped or hurt a non-town entity inc, scum. - if scum, unlikely to be disclosed/discernable from reactions either way, - 3p weird to speculate about, but if it was going to be helpful to have it come out, would probably do so on its own. d) it did nothing (very unlikely) - just going to distract the town from scumhunting. So in the vast majority of cases, talking about a thing that impacted unknown players in unknown ways is going to probably benefit the scum, even if the thing itself did something pro town.
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Jan 9, 2015 04:54
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KhyrosFinalCut posted:Not thinking about it is extremely dumb Being dumb doesn't make me scum.
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Jan 9, 2015 05:05
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Ok, I've read things.
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Jan 9, 2015 05:08
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Dugong posted:the other games i have played i have been quite rightly been called just saying "i dont like this" rather than actually voting. I feel more sure about YPM being 3rd non-town than any of the 3 leaders. This is literally the worst post in the thread so far. I think it's where my vote is going: ##vote Dugong I do have more thoughts. Sec.
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Jan 9, 2015 05:11
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Pinterest Mom posted:yah merk's trying to push the chic case hard is baaaaad This is the second worst post of the thread.
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Jan 9, 2015 05:12
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...and then all of Chic's stuff about me is bad. My list is Dugong->Chic->Pinterest
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Jan 9, 2015 05:13
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I was going to post a case on Chic, but I think I've already done that. I also think the best case on Dugong is literally quoting that one post. Rarity made a case on Pinterest that is 'eh.' I think my one quote of Pinterest just nakedly out there is stronger than Rarity's whole case.
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Jan 9, 2015 05:14
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Byers2142 posted:That makes more sense. Now, why is it a scum tell to want to know the effect? That's the part I'm not getting; someone trying to learn what was affected by a day action is a null tell. At best, you could make the argument that all it tells us is that Amoeba and f_v can't be scumbros, or else why ask in the thread, but even that's a weak argument to make with other supporting evidence to shore it up. My original thoughts were that since it was scum wouldn't know what the effects were, they would want to know more than town would and people asking would be more likely to be scum. Looking back, it doesn't really hold up under more thoughtful scrutiny. I mostly got excited about thinking I caught a tell and wanted to see what other people thought.
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Jan 9, 2015 05:17
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Winged Orpheus posted:My original thoughts were that since it was scum wouldn't know what the effects were, they would want to know more than town would and people asking would be more likely to be scum. Looking back, it doesn't really hold up under more thoughtful scrutiny. I mostly got excited about thinking I caught a tell and wanted to see what other people thought. Uh, no, Your initial thought process is correct, WO, read my breakdown of why prodding about the unknown effect is likely anti town, and the way FV reacted to even the impression of pressure is bearing out the idea.... I don't understand why you're backpedaling since it's working out.
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Jan 9, 2015 05:24
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fiery_valkyrie posted:Do you have any other thoughts? Your contribution yesterday was negligible Not really but I'm glad to show up and give you something to deflect towards.
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Jan 9, 2015 05:35
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Little Mac posted:Not really but I'm glad to show up and give you something to deflect towards. This is a petty looking snipe. I too would love substantial thoughts from you Little Mac.
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Jan 9, 2015 06:16
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Not right now! Will give something substantialish over the weekend.
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Jan 9, 2015 07:18
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Also it wasn't petty I like to believe it was just funny thankyouverymuch
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Jan 9, 2015 07:18
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##vote fiery
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Jan 9, 2015 08:21
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merk posted:This is literally the worst post in the thread so far. I think it's where my vote is going: ##vote Dugong I'm more interested in Dugong's out of nowhere vote on YPM late in D1; I'm hoping he gives me an explanation for that like I asked. What I'm more worried about is that you're currently looking for posts that look scummy in isolation. With the exception of Chic, your cases all boil down to "look at this post." It's easy to find scummy posts; everyone makes a scummy post of two in every game, regardless of alignment. Someone pointed out to me once that scum like to case based on individual posts because it's easier to make the case, that it's harder to make an average town player's total body of work look scummy. I think it was yuming? Sounds like yuming. Please don't be scum, merk. Are you scum?
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Jan 9, 2015 14:09
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Little Mac posted:Not right now! Will give something substantialish over the weekend. Isn't the deadline on Sunday, and don't most games die over weekends? You're basically saying you'll come back and make some points when people aren't around and there won't be time for discussion prior to deadline.
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Jan 9, 2015 14:11
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Byers2142 posted:I'm more interested in Dugong's out of nowhere vote on YPM late in D1; I'm hoping he gives me an explanation for that like I asked. On this day 1 very few people have enough content filled posts to look at a body of work. The single posts are the strongest reads at the moment.
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Jan 9, 2015 14:24
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KhyrosFinalCut posted:Uh, no, Your initial thought process is correct, WO, read my breakdown of why prodding about the unknown effect is likely anti town, and the way FV reacted to even the impression of pressure is bearing out the idea.... I don't understand why you're backpedaling since it's working out. KFC, I'd love to debate the reason the case was effective, but I don't want to distract right now from the reaction it warranted from f_v or the overall scumminess of f_v's play this game. Remind me after the game to come back to this, because while it's interesting to me I'm not sure it's relevant right now.
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Jan 9, 2015 14:24
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merk posted:On this day 1 very few people have enough content filled posts to look at a body of work. The single posts are the strongest reads at the moment. I disagree, at this point in the game there's been plenty of posts and time to get a sense of most player's body of work or lack thereof. Moreso, I think it speaks to a scum mentality to consider the game like that right now. Dugong had enough posts. You pointed at one post, but I think it's worse for him to have voted YPM as he did with no prior mention or interactions with YPM. It was a vote in vacuum, but the reason it looks worse to me is when you compare it to what he said. f_v had enough posts. Over and over, she accused people of being scum while doing the exact same thing, often in the same situation, that she was casing them for. When questioned about it, she's deflected or outright ignored the points raised. Again, one post alone doesn't give you the information needed to recognize that pattern. PMom... may or may not have had enough posts. I need to reread PMom before I can say that. In short, the single posts are not the strongest reads, they're the easiest means to make strong statements about. You hold up a post and say, "This is a scummy post." That's a strong statement, due to the simplicity in it. There's no room for ambiguity or contradiction in it. But it's easy to find a post by a person and hold that post, in isolation, up as evidence of scumminess. For instance: merk posted:I'll literally vote anyone. I haven't read much. Made 12 hours before deadline. This is a scummy post.
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Jan 9, 2015 14:40
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It's fine that you disagree. I disagree with your disagreement.
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Jan 9, 2015 16:12
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merk posted:It's fine that you disagree. I disagree with your disagreement. It's not just that I disagree, I find it scummy.
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Jan 9, 2015 16:49
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Byers2142 posted:Isn't the deadline on Sunday, and don't most games die over weekends? You're basically saying you'll come back and make some points when people aren't around and there won't be time for discussion prior to deadline. Okay? Weak response tbh. I work during the week
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Jan 9, 2015 17:23
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Byers2142 posted:It's not just that I disagree, I find it scummy. Cool
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Jan 9, 2015 17:35
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merk posted:Cool God dammit, this is going to be just like X-Men. ##vote merk merk is scum. He's hiding behind an apparent lack of caring, purposefully making it hard to case him at all. The only time he has been truly engaged has been when Chic went after him. Not because he's scared of the case but because he's offended that he's been cased for the wrong reasons. He can accept being caught as scum, but he's not going to stand by and by accidentally caught as scum when the case used isn't solid. His response to the other points against him are to brush it off, as he has here, because it forces the casers to box shadows. There's no resistance, we tire ourselves out, and we look for an easier case to push. It's part of why pushing a case against merk is so tiring; he makes you work for it and pay for every vote gained in spent effort. Look back at Ernie's point from yesterday; it was a good one. This is merk, and he seemingly wasted his shot if you consider it from a town point of view. That was not a town shot. Look at the casing he's doing that does not involve Chic. He finds one post that can be called scummy, uses the post as the entirety of the case, and sits on it until forced to do something more. This isn't happenstance; by taking this stance, he can let town run around casing and lynching each other. In terms of scumminess, f_v has done more to be cased on, but make no mistake, this is merk playing out a scum ploy. And we can't let him stick around because the evidence isn't as abundant, or he will make us pay. In the X-Men game, I said that he's currently the best player playing on SA. I haven't seen anything to make me think that this has changed. He is very good at game theory, and even better at social manipulation. If we let him stick around, he will find a way to either continue to deflect and survive, use his delayed death to suss out PRs, or protect his scumbros behind seemingly solid defenses based on a lot of WIFOM. I wanted to believe, merk. You broke my heart. 
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Jan 9, 2015 18:07
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