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What I imagine whenever anyone talks about "The Baron":
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Jan 28, 2015 22:49
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Shady Amish Terror posted:I could be wrong, but it seems like the usual suspects are 'lack of dev time' and 'graphical limitations'. This is especially true of anything that's going on a console, but a lot of 'AAA' games seem to often run into the problem that it takes a LOT of time to develop shiny, well-polished assets, and way too much of a system's resources to display them, so you frequently end up with high-poly models that still look cruddy because of rendering limitations or a lack of good art direction that you can only display a few of at any given point in time. This was odd. For a time, they were saying how Thief was going to be a big next gen game, and how it was going to make the most of what the PS4/XBone had to offer, etc, etc. Then it was suddenly also coming out on PS3 and 360. What happened there?
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Jan 28, 2015 23:08
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My guess? Money. Or the lack thereof.
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Jan 28, 2015 23:23
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Yeah, until I went and looked it up I assumed it was current gen only. It has the feel of an early days console release, half tech demo, half brand update, generally half-hearted.
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Jan 28, 2015 23:23
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Hank Morgan posted:This is the creative genius behind the story of Thief. I admit, the guy has a good voice and clearly shows passion, but the story is extremely lackluster nevertheless.
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Jan 28, 2015 23:32
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Hank Morgan posted:This is the creative genius behind the story of Thief. It's a bit cliched even for improv. Was it a bet to use this as the game's storyline?
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Jan 29, 2015 00:21
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Kangra posted:What I imagine whenever anyone talks about "The Baron":
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Jan 29, 2015 01:19
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After watching the video of the narrative director, I wonder how much of an effect on the plot it would have if Garret had stolen Erin's claw not as "dad taking your toys because you've been bad" but because he is a thief and the opportunity to get a new gadget easily presented itself.
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Jan 29, 2015 05:04
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Prenton posted:This was odd. For a time, they were saying how Thief was going to be a big next gen game, and how it was going to make the most of what the PS4/XBone had to offer, etc, etc. Thi4f was in development for a pretty long time. It was announced in 2009.
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Jan 29, 2015 06:24
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HnK416 posted:This game is just a checklist of tropes to be honest. There's nothing original about any characters or event or aspect. As Yahtzee said, it's the most unoffensive, check-listed stealth game that could be made. Whenever someone mentions that the game suffered from "too many cooks" syndrome, it's important to remember that the ideas of which this game is a jumbled mess are all individually derivative and offensive. Cartheon posted:Anyone who points at graphics as being critical to a game needs to have their head held under until the bubbles stop. Most of the greatest games ever made have some of the shittiest graphics. Example - Ultima 4 and 5, I have yet to play an RPG with their depth. That's the critical, technical failure of this game - it sacrifices large maps on the altar of better graphics and faster loading times; it gave up something awesome about the franchise (excluding Thief 3) for things that don't matter all that much. Map transitions are so loving crazy. On the one hand, they don't seem to matter all that much on a grand scale. The levels are still faithfully represented, after all. But it immediately severs the continuity and tension of the gameplay, giving you a clean slate even if alerts persist. Big levels are like a long take in a movie, with no cuts and an increased feeling of exposure and fragility. We badly need them back.
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Jan 29, 2015 07:00
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Setting aside arguments over hyperbole, I never said that graphics are critical to a game but I think some people are too quick to go "ah gently caress graphics, they don't matter!" because no, they kind of do. Yes, you can make a good game with bad graphics and plenty of bad games have a lot of graphical polish but the two aren't mutually exclusive concepts, you don't have to trade off one for another and graphics, like sound design and voice acting, can play an important role in immersing a player into a game, and that's to say nothing of good graphic design assisting and enhancing gameplay elements (a lot of game developers will happily talk about the way they use color choices or graphical presentation to draw a player's attention or provide them with important information). Also I'm going to disagree with the assertion that Th4ef's failure is one of sacrificing quality on the alter of Big Graphics because Th4ef isn't even all that technically impressive compared to its contemporaries. It's certainly not hideous or anything, but neither is it spectacularly awesome, nor does it do anything impressive in terms of visual design. The idea that the designers spent an inordinate amount of time on the graphics compared to anything else simply doesn't wash because Dishonored exists which is a stealth-action FPS with good graphics and better gameplay and better story than Thief 4, so clearly it can be done. It's just in this case it wasn't.
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Jan 29, 2015 07:43
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Everything Kai Tave said plus this: I highly doubt the reason that Thief4 is mediocre was because everyone on the dev team envisioned the same mediocre game (or even the same great game that they fell short of in execution). Rather, it's pretty evident that there were at least 3 or 4 conflicting visions of a game pulling the dev team in different directions. It feels like the guy who designed the lockpicking minigame wasn't speaking with the map designer, who wasn't speaking to the dialogue writing, who wasn't speaking to the storyboard guy etc.
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Jan 29, 2015 08:43
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Of course graphics do matter, and ironically enough, in a sneaking game like Thief they actually are critical - a robust lighting engine, so as to have a good idea if you're actually in the shadows or not; a good draw distance, so as to see if there is anyone in a seeing distance; detailed and sharp guards' models, so as to be sure that they are turned back or something. Graphics is not only fidelity, [x]p and bloom effects. And all things being equal, I'd rather have a good game with good graphics than good game with bad graphics.
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Jan 29, 2015 10:15
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http://kotaku.com/5918203/thief-4-is-that-youquote:One of the more mystifying absences from last week's E3 was Eidos Montreal's Thief 4, a game which has been in development for four years — an amount of time that encompasses the entirety of the development cycle for the studio's first game, Deus Ex: Human Revolution. If a perusal of various online resumes is anything to go by, the project appears to be rather beleaguered. http://www.joystiq.com/2012/06/14/report-thief-4-development-in-trouble/ (paraphrasing the kotaku article in a way that's easier to copy paste) quote:According to a report on Kotaku from internet sleuth Superannuation, not only did audio director and composer Paul Weir leave Eidos Montreal, but so did lead level designer Adam Alim, senior concept artists Nicolas Ferrand and Dan Blomberg, senior technical level designer Eugene Kuczerepa, senior animator Marie-Chantal Larocque and senior level designer Patrick Garon. In addition to the departures, there's also apparently a completed CG trailer created by Goldtooth Creative – the same firm responsible for Deus Ex: Human Revolution's CG and cutscenes – that never saw the light of day, and was planned for a December 2011 unveiling, according to this resume. http://www.polygon.com/2013/4/26/4269912/thief-reboot-impeded-by-office-politics-high-level-departures quote:The Thief reboot began in 2008, first as a series of conceptual meetings, then as a vertical slice from a team within Eidos Montreal. "Vertical slice" is industry terminology for a condensed demonstration of a game's potential art, design, gameplay and tone. A vertical slice is made by small team and helps the publisher decide whether a project should enter full production. quote:While the project attracted a few designers, programmers and artists from across the globe, many came from other Montreal studios. A number of senior team members previously worked together at Ubisoft Montreal, and were quick to recruit local colleagues. According to one source, collegial favoritism began to divide the office. quote:Those same sources cited team politics and conflicting visions as cause for many departures and setbacks. quote:The current version of Thief barely resembles the initial concept, says a source. The vertical slice doesn't load inside Thief's current heavily modified version of Unreal Engine 3. Many programming tricks were necessary to run the current demonstration, like turning off non-playable character AI — the engine has trouble when too many characters are on screen. http://www.computerandvideogames.com/420374/eidos-montreal-boss-resigns-claims-company-lacks-courage/ quote:The former head of Eidos Montreal has quit the company, citing "irreconcilable" differences.
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Jan 29, 2015 10:22
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Also "good graphics" doesn't have to equate with "super photorealistic next-gen ultra-resolution so you can see each pore on the protagonist's nose," a lot of games do impressive things with stylized graphics. My point was simply that if you're going to try and objectively break down the good and the bad of the original Thief games, you kind of have to acknowledge that yeah, the graphics are a definite weak point. Not just "they don't hold up well today" but even at the time they were new, Thief's graphics were never its strong suit and I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that janky origami men moving around like stiff-limbed marionettes really added to the experience. But okay, the graphics weren't that good, so what was? The sound design was very good, which is a thing that's been discussed previously, as was the level design. The core gameplay strongly reinforced the themes of being a skulking thief in the shadows instead of your typical FPS protagonist. The original Thief games did do some nice thing with certain stylistic graphical design decisions, namely the sepia-toned still image cinematics were a clever and atmospheric way of doing a little with a lot, and I think you could make an argument that the original Thief was in many ways a result of the designers understanding that their game was never going to be a visual powerhouse and doing what they could to bring the other aspects up as much as they could so that it would be a good game in spite of that. It's not impossible to carry those lessons forward into a new generation of computer games while also adding graphics that are both better overall as well as serving the themes and gameplay, i.e. lighting and shadow effects, body language for AI characters giving the player more visual cues as to the AI's likely behavior, weather effects (fog or rain, or heck, even snow), and sure, some visual spectacle is always fun while you're there.
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Jan 29, 2015 10:44
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Kai Tave posted:Also I'm going to disagree with the assertion that Th4ef's failure is one of sacrificing quality on the alter of Big Graphics because Th4ef isn't even all that technically impressive compared to its contemporaries. It's certainly not hideous or anything, but neither is it spectacularly awesome, nor does it do anything impressive in terms of visual design. The completely scrambled vision evident in the post above aside, there is one thing that make quality and graphics a trade-off: Poly count and level size. I'm not saying that high poly count is equivalent to good graphics, because I disagree with that, but it is certainly an element in graphical detail. And you can only fit so many polygons in memory at once, especially if you are designing with consoles in mind.
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Jan 29, 2015 10:50
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 Let's all agree that it isn't just about making GPUs melt with polygon counts and uncompressed textures antialiased into a fine sand, it's also about execution.
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Jan 29, 2015 10:52
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Yeah, I agree with that but I also admit the "design for consoles" thing is a factor I guess I've been glossing over, it's definitely a factor though it seems like some studios are better at squeezing more out of limited hardware options than others. And holy poo poo, I knew that Th4ef's development had been turbulent but I hadn't ever seen it laid out like that before, that sounds like a complete clusterfuck. Also "Cinemax-level sex sequences," really?
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Jan 29, 2015 11:10
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Kai Tave posted:Also "Cinemax-level sex sequences," really? You've seen em already if you've watched the videos...
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Jan 29, 2015 11:26
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Eh, I was taking away from that that they were originally planning something a bit more daring, or maybe my young teenage self's memories of Cinemax have become embellished over the years. Still, it kind of says something about the direction your project is headed when your animators are going "man, do we have to do this?"
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Jan 29, 2015 11:37
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bhlaab posted:http://kotaku.com/5918203/thief-4-is-that-you Perfect timing for someone to scoop up the DX and Thief licenses! I doubt Squeenix know what to do to resolve the situation since they've issues producing their own main titles.
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Jan 29, 2015 11:48
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evilmiera posted:Perfect timing for someone to scoop up the DX and Thief licenses! I doubt Squeenix know what to do to resolve the situation since they've issues producing their own main titles. Hey, Deus Ex: HR's development went pretty swimmingly (well, about as much as any game), was well received, I never heard anything to imply that its sales fell short of expectations (unlike, say, Hitman 5, Tomb Raider, Sleeping Dogs, and, uh, MindJack) , and they've already charted a course for a "Deus Ex Universe" including a new game built on a proprietary engine. And possibly a film adaptation, Deus Ex: The Spirits Within. I just wouldn't expect a 5hief any time soon.
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Jan 29, 2015 12:03
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bhlaab posted:I never heard anything to imply that its sales fell short of expectations (unlike, say, Hitman 5, Tomb Raider, Sleeping Dogs, and, uh, MindJack) Mindjack not withstanding, all the rest sold pretty well. It's just that square enix wanted them to sell like a cod game.
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Jan 29, 2015 16:42
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Kai Tave posted:Eh, I was taking away from that that they were originally planning something a bit more daring, or maybe my young teenage self's memories of Cinemax have become embellished over the years. Still, it kind of says something about the direction your project is headed when your animators are going "man, do we have to do this?" I felt the same way when I had to record that level.
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Jan 29, 2015 17:22
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Kai Tave posted:Also "good graphics" doesn't have to equate with "super photorealistic next-gen ultra-resolution so you can see each pore on the protagonist's nose," a lot of games do impressive things with stylized graphics. I will agree with that. My issue is that great gameplay can save a game with poor graphics. Great graphics will not save a game with poor gameplay. Too often I have arguments with chowderheads who praise games with great graphics but no real substance. If you want great graphics and no substance, watch a Michael Bay film. Szurumbur posted:Of course graphics do matter, and ironically enough, in a sneaking game like Thief they actually are critical - a robust lighting engine, so as to have a good idea if you're actually in the shadows or not; a good draw distance, so as to see if there is anyone in a seeing distance; detailed and sharp guards' models, so as to be sure that they are turned back or something. Graphics is not only fidelity, [x]p and bloom effects. And yet, everyone here seems to agree that this game - the Thief game with the best graphics - is complete poo poo when compared to Thief 1 and 2 - games with graphics that we all agree are leaving a lot to be desired. Thus they are not critical. Otherwise we would all be praising this game despite its gameplay flaws. Great graphics are nice to have, like a sun-roof on your BMW, but not a necessity. As long as you have the minimum graphics to support the great gameplay, you will have a great game. Cartheon fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 17:34
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   De Grenefeld's Acquisitions New Objectives A Warning Ulcer Treatment De Grenefeld's Diary Treatise on Undeath Vol. 1 Me Gold Final Objectives
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Jan 29, 2015 18:07
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   holy poo poo I don't wanna see the Dark Mod anymore, we're loving marked men now. Jesus that was awesome. I really did like the change in objectives there after that...horrifying segment, that was pretty nice. Also wait you can clean bloodstains in this game?! Did I hear that right?
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Jan 29, 2015 18:50
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FinalGamer posted:
Some clever use of a water arrow, that. Expanding on stuff your gear can do with an evolved engine is why I like the look of this mod. Now all we need is for flash bombs to boil away water puddles.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:34
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I thought you could always wash away bloodstains with a water arrow, even in the original Theif?
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Jan 29, 2015 19:38
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HeadGrenade posted:I thought you could always wash away bloodstains with a water arrow, even in the original Theif? You could.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:43
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Cartheon posted:You could. Well that certainly blows my mind. I don't remember that at all! Then again I never did anything but blackjack people anyway.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:44
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I am unironically surprised that De Grenefeld did not turn out to be planning to double-cross Thomas Porter, since it's such a commonly used trope. It's nice to see something that goes against expectations 
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Jan 29, 2015 21:56
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Cartheon posted:I will agree with that. My issue is that great gameplay can save a game with poor graphics. Great graphics will not save a game with poor gameplay. Too often I have arguments with chowderheads who praise games with great graphics but no real substance. If you want great graphics and no substance, watch a Michael Bay film. Well, part of that is also that Thief 1 and 2's environmental design and art direction made up for technical shortcomings in character models. The actual environments got a sense of place across well enough that despite graphical shortcomings, the visual and art elements of the early Thief games still added to them.
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Jan 29, 2015 22:00
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Mikl posted:I am unironically surprised that De Grenefeld did not turn out to be planning to double-cross Thomas Porter, since it's such a commonly used trope. It's nice to see something that goes against expectations On the other hand, the basement is probably the most obvious trap ever. I remember going through this mission and becoming increasingly alarmed after going through long, narrow stairs into a vast, dark series of rooms with multiple exit and having to light a fireplace able to illuminate most of the level. I expected to have an another showdown of the Lich Queen, though. It makes sense in the retrospect that the guards did find Thomas, because of that lit fireplace. The smoke had to go somewhere and the house haven't been inhabited by anyone since a long time ago. If you are a fugitive who wants to hide in an abandoned building, take a warm blanket with you It has to be said: Thomas Porter is a moron.
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Jan 29, 2015 22:22
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He even gave his real name to a guy who deals in occult texts and experiments with magical portals of fire.
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Jan 29, 2015 22:31
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Gantolandon posted:On the other hand, the basement is probably the most obvious trap ever. I remember going through this mission and becoming increasingly alarmed after going through long, narrow stairs into a vast, dark series of rooms with multiple exit and having to light a fireplace able to illuminate most of the level. I expected to have an another showdown of the Lich Queen, though.  plus yanno, takes a lot of guts to stand up to the Lich Queen which I really hope we expand upon further down the mod.
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Jan 29, 2015 23:07
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Let's just say it plain: the whole Lich Queen plotline development is amazing! It's genuinely creepy, the personal note was a great touch and I was on the edge of my seat that entire sleep section expecting her to appear. I mean, yes, I know liches are supposed to take a few days to reappear at their phylactery, but it sure seemed like she didn't waste much time coming back to life after Porter dropped a mine on her face, and you try being rational when your character's been marked for death with a specific note to 'sleep lightly'.
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Jan 29, 2015 23:41
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Good (not really) news for anyone with a PS3 and Playstation+. as of next week, you can experience this game first hand for yourself! I'm glad it's a plus game, as I never had a desire to spend any money on it, being that I loved the originals, but I've had a morbid curiosity to try it myself.
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Jan 30, 2015 00:16
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I guess we're going to Bridgeport next. Not really the type you want chasing after you.
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Jan 30, 2015 00:24
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I am legitimately surprised. I too expected the double-cross instead of the surprisingly awesome turn the mod took (and I'm kicking myself a bit that I didn't expect it; I mean, GO FIGURE you didn't really kill the lich and GO FIGURE a lich is going to kind of hold a grudge, especially when you're loving around with their secret lich poo poo). It's wonderful what a dedicated person can do with an open-resource tool like TDM.
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Jan 30, 2015 02:50
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