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Also that it's stupid.
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Feb 11, 2015 02:01
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DarkCrawler posted:I don't think its stopped any Christian denomination ever, except for the Amish (and Mennonites?) I guess. Doesn't stop me from acknowledging God.
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Feb 11, 2015 02:03
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Crowsbeak posted:Doesn't stop me from acknowledging God. I guess that's a different denomination then? If he is not omniscient then it is just another fallible authority, albeit at a higher level. Maybe there are levels beyond that, after all the universe is infinitely bigger then any religious book has been able to muster. He created the Earth? He created the sky? Even at the Solar System level that is a fraction of the stuff that is out there, I've read my Genesis. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 02:15
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DarkCrawler posted:I guess that's a different denomination then? If he is not omniscient then it is just another fallible authority, albeit at a higher level. Maybe there are levels beyond that, after all the universe is infinitely bigger then any religious book has been able to muster. He created the Earth? He created the sky? Even at the Solar System level that is a fraction of the stuff that is out there, I've read my Genesis. He created the entire universe, so I will acknowledge him.
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Feb 11, 2015 02:21
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Crowsbeak posted:He created the entire universe, so I will acknowledge him. So what is stopping me then, even though I think we were raised equally Christian? According to the Bible, he created the Earth, the heaven, the sky and the waters. Where did all this stuff that is never even mentioned in the Bible comes from? What can God teach me about supernovae, about black holes or dark matter? About different forms of life that might exist out there that have nothing to do with vegetation and trees? About spacetime, about relativity, about the interaction of matter and energy? Nothing. Just the mere minuscule fraction we already know about the universe through the scientific method goes so far beyond old Mesopotamian texts - be it the Torah, the Bible or the Quran - that there is no level of comparison that could even exist between them. There is nothing to acknowledge from religion, because what we can directly observe and measure is infinitely more great. I think God would be a very strange and unworthy being indeed, if he would require us to follow blind faith over the glory we can directly see with just few pieces of correctly shaped glass invented hundreds of years ago. If he invented the universe, and we are his chosen people, why would we be limited to this one rock in the middle of nowhere? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 02:33
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DarkCrawler posted:So what is stopping me then, even though I think we were raised equally Christian? According to the Bible, he created the Earth, the heaven, the sky and the waters. Where did all this stuff that is never even mentioned in the Bible comes from? What can God teach me about supernovae, about black holes or dark matter? About different forms of life that might exist out there that have nothing to do with vegetation and trees? About spacetime, about relativity, about the interaction of matter and energy? Nothing. Just the mere minuscule fraction we already know about the universe through the scientific method goes so far beyond old Mesopotamian texts - be it the Torah, the Bible or the Quran - that there is no level of comparison that could even exist between them. There is nothing to acknowledge from religion, because what we can directly observe and measure is infinitely more great. Remind where in the Bible does it say you cannot study the machine of the Universe?
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Feb 11, 2015 02:35
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Crowsbeak posted:Remind where in the Bible does it say you cannot study the machine of the Universe? Remind me where in the Bible does it even mention the Universe beyond Earth and the Sun? 400 billion stars in Milky Way. 500 billion galaxies. How many are mentioned? How is someone living at the time of Jesus supposed to know about them? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 02:37
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I just think it would be cool if the omniscient, omnipotent God could, just once reveal to someone an objectively verifiable fact that wasn't already known to a living human.
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Feb 11, 2015 02:37
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DarkCrawler posted:Remind me where in the Bible does it even mention the Universe beyond Earth and the Sun? 400 billion stars in Milky Way. 500 billion galaxies. How many are mentioned? How is someone living at the time of Jesus supposed to know about them? Why would God need to talk about it? I mean would that knowledge make people be less shits to each other?
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Feb 11, 2015 02:45
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Crowsbeak posted:Why would God need to talk about it? Because it might give people one iota of reason to think any of the religion is true?
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Feb 11, 2015 02:47
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Crowsbeak posted:Why would God need to talk about it? I mean would that knowledge make people be less shits to each other? If your god's goal was to make people be less shits to each other he probably wouldn't have commanded them to commit genocide. I don't think you understand your god very well.
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Feb 11, 2015 02:48
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Crowsbeak posted:Why would God need to talk about it? I mean would that knowledge make people be less shits to each other? I think literally infinite resources and giving us ready means to access them would be a good place to start from. Instead everything great and remotely good humanity has ever achieved was learnt by humanity without any documented divine intervention. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 02:49
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vessbot posted:Because it might give people one iota of reason to think any of the religion is true? How would telling them that their are other worlds make them believe it? zeal posted:If your god's goal was to make people be less shits to each other he probably wouldn't have commanded them to commit genocide. I don't think you understand your god very well. Well with Jesus it was. Which was his question.
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Feb 11, 2015 02:52
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DarkCrawler posted:I think literally infinite resources and giving us ready means to access them would be a good place to start from. Ah, but we had that in the Garden of Eden until the original humans, who literally did not know right from wrong, were tricked by a talking serpent into eating forbidden fruit. For that transgression Crowsbeak's genocide-promoting tutelary spirit doomed not just humans but the entire ecological system Earth to suffering and death for the rest of time. But really, He Is Love. E: Crowsbeak posted:Well with Jesus it was. Which was his question. Unless you're from a non-trinitarian sect don't you regard the OT's cosmic tyrant-father as the same being as the 1st century Nazarene carpenter? Isn't Jesus of 'turn the other cheek' consubstantial with the Jehova who instructed his chosen warriors to crush their enemies and wring lamentations from their women? 1994 Toyota Celica fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 02:53
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Crowsbeak posted:How would telling them that their are other worlds make them believe it? Well when they verify that stuff on their own, they might have some more faith in him. Interesting that the only thing he's willing to share is stuff that people already know and coping mechanisms for human mortality.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:05
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Crowsbeak posted:How would telling them that their are other worlds make them believe it?. So telling people that there is literally infinite space and resources for them to exist and giving them the means to reach them would in your opinion have achieved nothing? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 03:08
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Crowsbeak posted:He created the entire universe, so I will acknowledge him. It'd be nice if there was something to show that he did it, instead of the natural process that we know did it.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:14
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Starving Autist posted:Well when they verify that stuff on their own, they might have some more faith in him. Interesting that the only thing he's willing to share is stuff that people already know and coping mechanisms for human mortality. Considering that it spread far and wide across an empire I say it worked out quite well didn't it? Plus most learned people were willing to admit there was a prime mover. DarkCrawler posted:So telling people that there is literally infinite space and resources for them to exist and giving them the means to reach them would in your opinion have achieved nothing? Of course he gave us the means, its our intelligence. Whether we use it to combine together and leave the cradle is up to us. CommieGIR posted:It'd be nice if there was something to show that he did it, instead of the natural process that we know did it. Commie Gir, of course he has working through those processes. BTW I notice how we are no longer trying to deny that Christianity was the main force behind abolitionism. Seems we now have moved to. "If Jesus didn't mention Extra Solar Planets, NO GOD." Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 03:30
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Crowsbeak posted:Jesus being God kind of makes the whole idea of murdering your enemies a bad thing now. Now I know that didn't stop the Catholic church in the 1000s using that to justify the crusades. You know what God never does? Say owning people as property is wrong. loving interesting, that.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:57
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All of the facts contained within the bible are pretty much exactly the same as what we can expect people to have known at the time. This is a real problem for me because it doesn't appear to be a universal compendium of God and his creation, but rather a pamphlet designed for a very specific era. Or, more likely, it was written by men with limited knowledge who could not even conceive of other galaxies. But I'm arguing up the wrong tree here.. Faith is what drives a religious person and not fact, and the blunt force trauma of reason can only do so much with religious individuals. I do not think religion should be banned, hell I don't even care so long as it is kept personal, but if push came to shove, it probably is something we should jettison.
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Feb 11, 2015 04:23
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Crowsbeak posted:Commie Gir, of course he has working through those processes. BTW I notice how we are no longer trying to deny that Christianity was the main force behind abolitionism. Seems we now have moved to. "If Jesus didn't mention Extra Solar Planets, NO GOD." I'm not because he agreed that the abolition movement was no doubt not exclusively Christian. How do you know that Zeus or Odin didn't create the universe? Why is the only possibility YOUR God? Why any God? Thats some nice set of blinders you are wearing there.
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Feb 11, 2015 04:31
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Who What Now posted:You know what God never does? Say owning people as property is wrong. loving interesting, that. Well, maybe it's not wrong. Maybe this whole "slavery is bad" thing is a phase. Did you ever consider that, r/atheist?
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Feb 11, 2015 04:32
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Who What Now posted:You know what God never does? Say owning people as property is wrong. loving interesting, that. Yep thats why slave traders are personally called out. That is also why manumission is suggested. Because there is nothing wring their with slavery., Its also a mystery as to why with Christianity that you have pushes to stop slavery, as say compared under platoism or aristoelism. Seriously what is it with a poster having religion that turns other posters into parodies of r/athieism. CommieGIR posted:I'm not because he agreed that the abolition movement was no doubt not exclusively Christian. Well those Gods may or may not exist they are not the prime mover, which my God is. Just read both mythologies, you'll see both acknowledge that they are not in fact the prime movers, while my God actually is said to create them and every other thing out there.
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Feb 11, 2015 04:37
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Crowsbeak posted:Well those Gods may or may not exist they are not the prime mover, which my God is. Just read both mythologies, you'll see both acknowledge that they are not in fact the prime movers, while my God actually is said to create them and every other thing out there. They all have as much credibility as the other. Well, that is, very little credibility. Its fine if you BELIEVE that, but theres no rational reason to treat at as a reality outside of your personal faith. It reeks of anthropocentrism. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 04:42
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CommieGIR posted:I'm not because he agreed that the abolition movement was no doubt not exclusively Christian. zeus and odin are finite beings that inhabit the world and so they cannot be the source of its existence. classical theism involves the belief that god is a necessary being that is the source and ground of contingent reality. if zeus and odin were to exist they would simply be creatures whose contingent existence depends upon a necessary source, ie the god of classical theism (religious and philosophical). classical theism is consistent with an infinity of zeuses, or demiurges, or whatever. the reason that zeus and odin aren't the creators of contingent reality is because its logically impossible.
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Feb 11, 2015 04:47
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CommieGIR posted:They all have as much credibility as the other. Well, that is, very little credibility. Oh I do not doubt God has created others, that is foolish when I see the heavens. Also I wouldn't be surprised if man is the first one God has revealed its presence to.
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Feb 11, 2015 04:48
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Crowsbeak posted:Oh I do not doubt God has created others, that is foolish when I see the heavens. Also I wouldn't be surprised if man is the first one God has revealed its presence to. Why God?
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Feb 11, 2015 05:03
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CommieGIR posted:Why God? I'm not going to commit blasphemy by trying to give God a motive for creation.
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Feb 11, 2015 05:07
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CommieGIR posted:Why God? Why believe God exists? or 'why, God, why?!'
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Feb 11, 2015 05:08
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Crowsbeak posted:Yep thats why slave traders are personally called out. In the bible? Because if so this never actually happens.
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Feb 11, 2015 05:38
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Who What Now posted:In the bible? Because if so this never actually happens. I quoted the exact verse on the previous page.
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Feb 11, 2015 05:56
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Who What Now posted:In the bible? Because if so this never actually happens. Crowsbeak pointed out Timothy 1:10 here's the full thing with the surrounding context: Warning against False Teaching …9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted. the "kidnappers" is translated as slave-traders or slavers and other things in other versions We aren't quoting Jesus and we aren't quoting Yahweh so who gives a poo poo, but this is all that we can really point to Al Harrington fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 06:00
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It sure is weird when a centurion asks Jesus to heal his slave in Luke 7, that Jesus simply remarks the man has great faith and doesn't say "Oh and also you should release your slave or at least adopt him as a family member so he isn't actually a slave anymore." Maybe Jesus said it though and Luke just didn't really feel like it was important to write down. Also I guess Paul is speaking in a metaphor or telling a parable when he says in 1 Corinthians 7, "Were you a slave when called? Do not be concerned about it. Even if you can gain your freedom, make use of your present condition now more than ever." The author of Ephesians must be doing the same in chapter 6 where he says: 5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; 6 not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. 7 Render service with enthusiasm, as to the Lord and not to men and women, 8 knowing that whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord, whether we are slaves or free. 9 And, masters, do the same to them. Stop threatening them, for you know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and with him there is no partiality. Maybe he meant to actually say "Actually slavery is bad and masters you should set your slaves free" but he got distracted by something and then when he continued the letter he forgot to put it in. It happens. I guess the author of Colossians also got distracted too, since he says in chapter 3: Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything, not only while being watched and in order to please them, but wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord. And then in chapter 4, he says Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, for you know that you also have a Master in heaven. Those wacky forgetful early Christians, totally meaning to say slavery is bad but absentmindedly leaving it out. Heck, even Timothy forgets when he says in chapter 6: Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. 2 Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Oh Timothy, you nut, "Whoops I forgot to say actually slavery is bad and it should be ended!" What's this, Titus chapter 2? 9 Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, 10 not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior. Even Peter had a brain fart and forgot to say how slavery sucks. 18 Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. 19 For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. 20 If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God’s approval.
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Feb 11, 2015 06:06
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Yet they also do not defend it do they? Also can you not deny their is ambivalence? Lets compare that to platoism or aristotelism that argued for it.
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Feb 11, 2015 06:14
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you're hilarious
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Feb 11, 2015 06:18
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Crowsbeak posted:Yet they also do not defend it do they? Also can you not deny their is ambivalence? Lets compare that to platoism or aristotelism that argued for it. I think telling the slaves that they should meekly obey their masters amounts to an endorsement of slavery, in my opinion.
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Feb 11, 2015 06:20
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I love a good handwave in the morning.
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Feb 11, 2015 06:20
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Starving Autist posted:I think telling the slaves that they should meekly obey their masters amounts to an endorsement of slavery, in my opinion. that is all rendered irrelevant by Timothy 1:10
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Feb 11, 2015 06:21
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The Christians were radical enough for the Romans without being accused of agitating to end slavery in the Empire. The teachings of Jesus, when taken at face value, leave no doubt that chattel slavery is wrong. Christianity, as a radical pacifist movement taught submission for slaves the same way that it expected submission from those who were being persecuted in other ways.
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Feb 11, 2015 06:25
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Al Harrington posted:that is all rendered irrelevant by Timothy 1:10 Actually it is especially since that verse would lead to Abolitionism that you anti theists seem to want to maintain was founded by a bunch of preadamite justifying enlightenment types. Look I understand it perfectly we all have our own little myths. Mine are that JC did do everything the Bible has, and yours are that the enlightenment was perfect. Except when it wasn't and then unlike with Church fathers its perfectly fine because of"men of their time". Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 06:27
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