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haveblue posted:The dev commentary also reveals the huge amount of work put into ensuring that Portal's impossible spaces are easy to understand, navigate, and reason about, and that they function as expected when the player takes actions. Also, Portal's "impossible" spaces... aren't actually impossible. They talked about this in the dev commentary, but there are actually no spaces in the game that are physically impossible. Improbable, yes, but still possible in euclidean space. They started out with a lot of impossible rooms or spaces, and the loading and design overhead were just too strenuous. By the time they shipped, every space in the game was translated into 'real space'.... except one, and it wasn't a puzzle space, it was a narrative space. PaletteSwappedNinja posted:Portal is also a game that focuses primarily and almost exclusively on the portals, so they don't have to deal with the million other problems that would arise from trying to implement that stuff into a more traditional FPS. Not true, there isn't any substantial difference between the version of Source used to make Portal 2 and the version TF2 runs. You could rebuild Portal as a TF2 map if you felt like it.
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Feb 20, 2015 02:37
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SilentW posted:Not true, there isn't any substantial difference between the version of Source used to make Portal 2 and the version TF2 runs. You could rebuild Portal as a TF2 map if you felt like it. I think he means in a design and gameplay sense, not a mechanical or code sense.
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Feb 20, 2015 15:39
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Yeah, part of the reason that the only enemies in Portal are unmoving turrets is because the AI literally can't interact with the portals in Source. If you install a Portal Gun into Garry's Mod, the enemies will completely ignore it, and considering Source's AI, they'd probably explode trying to enter one if they could.
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Feb 20, 2015 16:18
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Elliotw2 posted:Yeah, part of the reason that the only enemies in Portal are unmoving turrets is because the AI literally can't interact with the portals in Source. If you install a Portal Gun into Garry's Mod, the enemies will completely ignore it, and considering Source's AI, they'd probably explode trying to enter one if they could. Do you know why not? I get why they wouldn't know how to use the gun itself but shouldn't portals just be treated as doors for AI to interpret?
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Feb 20, 2015 16:50
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site posted:Do you know why not? I get why they wouldn't know how to use the gun itself but shouldn't portals just be treated as doors for AI to interpret? The AI relies on a navigation mesh complied into the map to know where it can walk. It has no capacity to deal with new paths appearing during gameplay.
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Feb 20, 2015 16:56
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The underlying map is not impossible but the connections and interactions created by portals are impossible and it's a situation that Havok was not really prepared to deal with. They ended up solving it by creating "ghost" versions of physics objects in the same place relative to the player in normal space that they appeared to be when looking through the portal. This is what lets you pick up cubes through portals or step through them onto moving platforms or be shoved out the other side by pistons.
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Feb 20, 2015 17:23
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Internet Friend posted:The AI relies on a navigation mesh complied into the map to know where it can walk. It has no capacity to deal with new paths appearing during gameplay. You could make it into a dynamic mesh and add and remove nodes where portals were created if you really wanted to. It'd take some doing, but I mean Portal and Left4Dead and other Valve games already do tons of advanced tricks that require lots of doing. haveblue posted:The underlying map is not impossible but the connections and interactions created by portals are impossible and it's a situation that Havok was not really prepared to deal with. They ended up solving it by creating "ghost" versions of physics objects in the same place relative to the player in normal space that they appeared to be when looking through the portal. This is what lets you pick up cubes through portals or step through them onto moving platforms or be shoved out the other side by pistons. I'm not really sure what "the connections and interactions created by portals are impossible" means. The space is still euclidean. You're just adding portals. Those portals themselves translate through some extra dimension presumably because the space doesn't physically connect, but there's no reason teleporters and connections can't be easily navigated by AI. They do just fine with slipgates and such, and that's equally "impossible". The only real challenge is that the portals are dynamic, so you'd have to keep checking that the player hasn't just closed the portal that you were running to. The player could probably stall the AI by just moving portals back and forth, unless you have the AI just ignore the portals as navigable paths.
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Feb 20, 2015 17:50
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Portals allow you to create a scenario where 2 parallel lines intersect. If you want to be spergy, that's the definition of non-euclidian. If you view it as a box with a magic portal that connects a to b its a possible space. If you view it as a room that seamlessly transitions from one side to the opposite side, and wraps around itself, its an impossible space. Its not much different than what anti-chamber does, anti-chamber just doesn't let you see the portals. eSporks fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Feb 20, 2015 |
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Feb 20, 2015 18:03
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Zaphod42 posted:You could make it into a dynamic mesh and add and remove nodes where portals were created if you really wanted to. I'm pretty sure that Source's AI has absolutely no dynamic pathing though. It runs completely off a precompiled botpath, and if it's missing they just sit there and shoot at anything that comes close. You can have lots of bot paths and have the bots charge at/away from a player, but they'll just resume the path/idling after they lose track of you.
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Feb 20, 2015 18:10
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Wadjamaloo posted:Portals allow you to create a scenario where 2 parallel lines intersect. If you want to be spergy, that's the definition of non-euclidian. You can't really overlap portals though (for the most part) so I wouldn't really call them "parallel". I mean yeah, the portals themselves have to be extra-dimensional, I already said that. But the world space itself is always pretty drat straightforward. Elliotw2 posted:I'm pretty sure that Source's AI has absolutely no dynamic pathing though. It runs completely off a precompiled botpath, and if it's missing they just sit there and shoot at anything that comes close. You can have lots of bot paths and have the bots charge at/away from a player, but they'll just resume the path/idling after they lose track of you. Nah you're totally right. I'm just saying, like, Left4Dead has like dozens of zombie actor parts that are randomly jumbled about to instantiate hundreds of different zombie models, which then have dozens of damage meshes and decals and poo poo that get applied so they can be gibbed in really creative ways without ruining the source engine's performance. Before Left4Dead that wasn't something source engine tech could really do. So all I'm saying is if Valve really wanted to, I have no doubt they could have implemented dynamic pathing. But I guess it wasn't worth the effort to them. I'm just not sure that turrets being the only enemies is such a technical restriction, I think that was more of a deliberate design choice. If they really needed more enemies in Portal, they would have implemented dynamic pathing. They didn't because they didn't need to, not because they couldn't. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Feb 20, 2015 |
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Feb 20, 2015 18:13
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AI really needs a rethink away from precomputed pathing. Are there any games that have intelligent, more dynamic AI nowadays?
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Feb 20, 2015 19:03
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SwissCM posted:AI really needs a rethink away from precomputed pathing. Are there any games that have intelligent, more dynamic AI nowadays? Quite a few, but they're almost always mocked as having terrible AI. See Crysis, the Arma series, etc. People never remember that time an AI navigated a dynamic jungle for five minutes to track you down, but they sure as hell will when you lure the AI into water and it doesn't have a failsafe stopping it from drowning itself.
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Feb 20, 2015 19:17
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You can make Dynamic AI work pretty well in close quarters in Unreal or Crysis/Arma, but it sucks in the standard type of maps.
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Feb 20, 2015 19:23
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Hideous Destructor has obscenely complicated AI.
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Feb 20, 2015 19:23
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TerminusEst13 posted:Hideous Destructor has obscenely complicated AI. Can you elaborate on this at all? I'm really curious about implementing complex AI in the GZDoom engine. "Obscenely complicated" may not mean complex or intelligent, though.
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Feb 20, 2015 19:42
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Does Source really not do dynamic pathing? I remember having to compile pathways for custom maps a lot back when i played cs; could they not enable that functionality real-time and offload it to a core nowadays?
site fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Feb 20, 2015 |
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Feb 20, 2015 20:02
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site posted:Does Source really not do dynamic pathing? I remember having to compile pathways for custom maps a lot back when i played cs; could they not enable that functionality real-time and offload it to a core nowadays?
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Feb 20, 2015 20:14
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Does Source 2 use something that's not DirectX loving 9?
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Feb 20, 2015 20:19
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Segmentation Fault posted:Does Source 2 use something that's not DirectX loving 9? Valve probably values compatibility with lovely integrated video. Being able to run on loving everything is a good business plan for f2p games.
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Feb 20, 2015 20:28
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Are there any into dumps around on source 2? I'd be interested in seeing what's new/changed.
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Feb 20, 2015 20:44
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Why does Zandronum run so much worse than GZdoom? I like to play coop sometimes, but it the fps will drop in the stock doom 1 maps. Also goddamn the menu text scaling is poo poo and needs fixed.
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Feb 20, 2015 21:30
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Elliotw2 posted:Why does Zandronum run so much worse than GZdoom? It's basically a several-year-old build of GZDoom with much better netcode. I really hope that some day they update it to modern spec.
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Feb 20, 2015 21:32
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Don't worry, they'll upgrade it to the current latest gzdoom release in approximately 2018
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Feb 20, 2015 21:34
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Zaphod42 posted:You can't really overlap portals though (for the most part) so I wouldn't really call them "parallel". I mean yeah, the portals themselves have to be extra-dimensional, I already said that. But the world space itself is always pretty drat straightforward. You can make 2 parallel laser beams intersect each other. Also imagine trying to build a real life model of a room with two portals without just saying " this one teleports you to this one" but actually connecting them. Its not possible in traditional 3d geometry. I realize the game is just making normal 3d rooms, but the actual space created by the portals doesn't behave consistent with reality. It does behave consistent with the players expectations and that's why it works. In a way its similar to how doom uses 2d to cheat 3d. Portals use 3d to cheat an extra dimensional non-euclidian space. Again, imagine instead of the portals you just have one hallway that is open and leads to a different hallway.
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Feb 20, 2015 21:40
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There's a new release in testing that should only be 2 or 3 years behind 
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Feb 20, 2015 21:41
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site posted:Does Source really not do dynamic pathing? I remember having to compile pathways for custom maps a lot back when i played cs; could they not enable that functionality real-time and offload it to a core nowadays? Nope, they use meshes. The format is rather static so no, its not the kind of thing you could update every frame, even f you're offloading it to some core. If you're not updating it every frame then its not really all that useful as a dynamic mesh, unless you only perform key changes when certain things happen, like responding to Battlefield's levolution or something. Like I've been saying though if they really wanted to though could just redeisgn it to be an inherently dynamic format so you don't have to compile the whole thing at once. Or you could just have your dynamic AI use A* on the real geometry or whatever, but that's gonna be pretty drat expensive computationally. Wadjamaloo posted:Imaging two laser beams on the edge of a cliff... For the third time Zaphod42 posted:I mean yeah, the portals themselves have to be extra-dimensional, I already said that. You're entirely misunderstanding what I was saying. I already acknowledged that was the case. But you're interpreting my point the wrong way. Its not really important though so lets just move along.
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Feb 20, 2015 22:08
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site posted:Are there any into dumps around on source 2? I'd be interested in seeing what's new/changed.
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Feb 21, 2015 04:44
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Elliotw2 posted:Why does Zandronum run so much worse than GZdoom? I like to play coop sometimes, but it the fps will drop in the stock doom 1 maps. I tried Zandronum before GZDoom. It's amazing how differently they perform. I don't play multiplayer so the quality of the netcode isn't an issue for me.
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Feb 21, 2015 04:59
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Zaphod42 posted:Nope, they use meshes. The format is rather static so no, its not the kind of thing you could update every frame, even f you're offloading it to some core. If you're not updating it every frame then its not really all that useful as a dynamic mesh, unless you only perform key changes when certain things happen, like responding to Battlefield's levolution or something. Here is a better explanation for how this all works: When the object enters the mesh, the mesh begins to correct itself. Let me use this example: Imagine four balls on the edge of a cliff. Say a direct copy of the ball nearest the cliff is sent to the back of the line of balls and takes the place of the first ball. The formerly first ball becomes the second, the second becomes the third, and the fourth falls off the cliff. Static meshes work the same way.
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Feb 21, 2015 07:42
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Jakcson posted:Here is a better explanation for how this all works: When the object enters the mesh, the mesh begins to correct itself. Let me use this example: Imagine four balls on the edge of a cliff. Say a direct copy of the ball nearest the cliff is sent to the back of the line of balls and takes the place of the first ball. The formerly first ball becomes the second, the second becomes the third, and the fourth falls off the cliff. I didn't see you taking it there 
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Feb 21, 2015 07:54
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Elliotw2 posted:Why does Zandronum run so much worse than GZdoom? I like to play coop sometimes, but it the fps will drop in the stock doom 1 maps.
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Feb 21, 2015 08:36
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Wamdoodle posted:I didn't see you taking it there I wouldn't have got that reference were it not for New Vegas.
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Feb 21, 2015 08:39
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Casimir Radon posted:Also why don't the (G)Zdoom people do some work on the netcode? Everything else seems to be in good working order, why not get multiplayer implemented? It already has netcode, Doom's netcode (which is kind of expected seeing as it's a Doom source port). It just doesn't have the exact functions you want, it seems. It is being worked on, however. Rocket Pan fucked around with this message at 08:45 on Feb 21, 2015 |
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Feb 21, 2015 08:42
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Mak0rz posted:I wouldn't have got that reference were it not for New Vegas. Huh? I thought it used to pop up at least once a year in GBS before the Great Restructuring that made it a totally different type of subforum (I liked it better when it was more like D&D but with more drama). Next you're going to tell me you never heard of Awful Fantasy III. Anyhow, does anyone know what's going on with Brutal Doom? I thought it was supposed to have been released in January. I suspect that this mod will make Freedoom considerably more playable, although actually getting through all of the included levels may still present a challenge.
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Feb 21, 2015 08:54
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Jakcson posted:Huh? http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Johnny I knew about Zyborne Clock beforehand, but the balls on the cliff thing was completely new to me until I played New Vegas less than a year ago. Jakcson posted:Next you're going to tell me you never heard of Awful Fantasy III. I haven't, actually
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Feb 21, 2015 09:05
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Casimir Radon posted:Also why don't the (G)Zdoom people do some work on the netcode? Everything else seems to be in good working order, why not get multiplayer implemented? Zandronum's take on netcode doesn't like heavily scripted wads and requires some dedicated server infrastructure.
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Feb 21, 2015 09:08
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Netcode itself is a gigantic pain in the rear end to develop. Even professional game devs have major issues with it, like most of the netcode in the Serious Sam series from The Second Encounter to HD The First Encounter being absolute dogshit and the major net-related hickups you get with almost every new game in the first day or so after they're release. On the ports front, the EDuke32 guys have been slowly grinding away at it for years, and they seem to know what they're doing.
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Feb 21, 2015 10:40
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Recently, I realized I never played the original Unreal, so I decided to fix that. So far, I'm really enjoying it: it has a flavor all of its own, and it feels as if –had Epic not started working on the Tournament series after this– a proper sequel would have been much closer to something such as Metroid Prime than Quake. Anyway, I've started encountering a problem. From time to time, when I load a save, all my weapons are missing their textures. Reloading an earlier save (which means restarting the level, most of the times) seems to fix the problem, but I'd like to know if anyone else encountered this and found another way around this.
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Feb 21, 2015 11:03
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Unreal is a very different experience from most FPS games. Instead of zooming around tight hallways like in Doom and Quake, you're trapped in gigantic outdoors areas and big indoors areas. Combat is about tense 1v1 or 1v2 engagements with smart and powerful foes instead of tossing a lot of trash at you. Anything more powerful than a Krall Elite can and will utterly destroy you if you don't keep up the pace. The music perfectly compliments the maps and helps make it even more atmospheric. There is zero dialogue in the game, making you figure out the world of Na Pali and what's been happening to it since the Skaarj took over by reading text messages from fellow humans, inscriptions from temples, notes from Nali, and interpreting the levels themselves instead of having someone over a radio or whatever tell you everything. Some of the graphics, like skyboxes, hold up well today. Several of the levels, like Noork's Elbow, The Trench, Bluff Eversmoking, and The Sunspire, are still impressive. There's really been nothing made like it since. After two replays, it's usurped HL1 as my favorite out of all the FPS games released in 1998. Basically, it's basically Myst with Guns.
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Feb 21, 2015 12:12
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Unreal is my favourite fps of all time. I was almost 16 when it got released so I could enjoy it more the first time compared to Doom, wich I enjoyed more years after release.
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Feb 21, 2015 13:58
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