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Saint Celestine posted:Aren't you never really "cut off"? Couldn't you use uninhabited stars to as jump points? If you wanted to commit suicide, sure. To elaborate: If you jump into an uninhabited, uninhabitable system and something goes wrong with your drive? Nobody is going to find your frozen corpse.
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Feb 18, 2015 23:50
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You have to admit, that part sounds perfect for the Clans. WARRIOR JUMPSHIPS. But really I think it'd be fascinating to have them take their nominal goal of Terra and then realize that doesn't mean the Star League is suddenly back in force, that doesn't mean the IS is going to give up, and now they're so over-extended they have no way of forcing the issue. It'd be the ultimate Clans meltdown.
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Feb 18, 2015 23:56
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Psion posted:You have to admit, that part sounds perfect for the Clans. WARRIOR JUMPSHIPS. Why do you think I'm always pushing for goons to play clanners or for them to do awesome/smart things in the political vote on the other LP thread? It'd be GLORIOUS.
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Feb 19, 2015 00:02
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PoptartsNinja posted:Because the Smoke Jaguar Annihilation forced all Clans except the Wolves to give up the quest to retake Terra and reestablish the Star League. They can't retake Terra, and their society is so brittle it pretty much broke apart because of that. Psion posted:I want an alt-universe timeline where the Clans take Terra, take Comstar, but the Fed Suns/rest of the IS say "so what we have space fax machines" and retake the entire rest of the invasion corridor. Suddenly the Clans hold Terra, have no idea what the hell to do, and are cut off by dozens of jumps from home. It'd be a great party. Saint Celestine posted:Aren't you never really "cut off"? Couldn't you use uninhabited stars to as jump points?
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Feb 19, 2015 00:04
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PoptartsNinja posted:Because the Smoke Jaguar Annihilation forced all Clans except the Wolves to give up the quest to retake Terra and reestablish the Star League. They can't retake Terra, and their society is so brittle it pretty much broke apart because of that. Well, to be fair they COULD. They did eventually vote that the Great Refusal on Strana Mechty was null and void due to the collapse of the Second Star League(if you can call something that lasted less than 10 years a true reformation of it) after all. It's just that after Wars of Reaving they either don't truly seem to care any more(all the IS-located Clans) or are too busy doing other stuff with a theoretical restart of the invasion "eventually"(all the homeworld Clans). Both are also rebuilding after the Reaving and the Society rebellion, though the homeworld ones far more so. To the point that I don't think there's any mention of them at all in the history after that portion of the timeline, despite presumably still being out there.
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Feb 19, 2015 00:12
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PoptartsNinja posted:If you wanted to commit suicide, sure. Did the Clans actually not do that between the Inner Sphere and the homeworlds? I don't remember Task Force Serpent running across a lot of Clan infrastructure on the way out, but I don't remember if they tried to deliberately avoid any.
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Feb 19, 2015 01:01
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Exodus Road is a chain of habitable or semi-habitable star systems between the homeworlds and the Inner Sphere. When the Clans returned, they brought infrastructure with them (Olympus-class recharging stations, etc) to any system that wasn't capable of supporting an outpost and an HPG of some sort. Task Force Serpent fought for every world along Exodus Road, it just got glossed over 'cause it's pretty meaningless. Did a fair bit of filming. Next mission is extremely long (because I do something really stupid that should still prove fun to watch) so I'll be calling up one of my co-commentators to help keep it interesting. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 01:10
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I've gotten to a point in my life where, apparently, peoples' summaries of things in BattleTech are more valuable to me than reading any of the canon. Thanks PTN. (and for the excellent BattleTech AU as well).
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Feb 19, 2015 04:59
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PoptartsNinja posted:Exodus Road is a chain of habitable or semi-habitable star systems between the homeworlds and the Inner Sphere. When the Clans returned, they brought infrastructure with them (Olympus-class recharging stations, etc) to any system that wasn't capable of supporting an outpost and an HPG of some sort. Task Force Serpent fought for every world along Exodus Road, it just got glossed over 'cause it's pretty meaningless. I thought that Task Force Serpent was actually doing the whole "running parallel" to the Exodus Road specifically to avoid the Clan held worlds in the Periphery? The entire strike was supposed to be a big surprise until they hit Huntress. Serpent only had one fleet engagement with Ghost Bears due to bad luck run-in with them from what I remember. edit: also on the subject of using uninhabited systems. It was mainly the IS and Periphery powers that were superstitious/scared shitless of doing anything like that due to the tech loss of the Succession Wars. Jumpships turned into stuff that was literally irreplaceable for the majority of the IS/Periphery worlds, with their hyperdrives being "black box" sort of tech. The Clans didn't seem to have that sort of proscription against it due to their higher tech base (i.e., knowing how to build Star League poo poo), and it also seemed to be fading from the IS' superstition bucket with the tech renaissance leading into the Clan Invasion era. So, still not remotely preferred, but enterprising/desperate/ballsy forces would think about it. Holybat fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 09:20
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Also, when you're running a fleet like Task Force Serpent, or the original SLDF exodus for that matter, was it's a lot less dangerous to go through uninhabited stars. Even if your jump engine dies, you can get it repaired by the other ships in the fleet or, worst case, evacuate to other ships and abandon the dead ship.
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Feb 19, 2015 10:49
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MechWarrior’s Campaign Journal, Update 33 May 28, 3051 It’s been exceptionally difficult finding work these past few months. Nearly every small operator like myself has banded together to form the company- or battalion-sized units that the Great Houses seem to want. I hate to say it, but I’m starting to miss the days when a company of BattleMechs was seen as an excessively strong defensive force. These Clan invaders have turned the entire Inner Sphere on its head. Well, I’m not about to sell my independence for convenience. July 4, 3051 I just returned from a minor scouting mission on behalf of some Steiner noble. It’s sad when a mixed Heavy and Assault lance can only get recon work since all the lighter (and less successful) BattleMech pilots are marketing themselves as a group. The HIRED GOONS still have the highest success rate against the Clans of any unit in the Inner Sphere, and that’s counting the ones Hohiro Kurita made up for the battle on Wolcott. They beat the Clans once. We’ve done it time and time again. Heh. Now that’s a slogan I think I can market the next time I’m at the hiring hall: HIRED GOONS: Kills Clanners dead. July 20, 3051 Persistence paid off.  Mission Briefing  August 15, 3051 I’ve just been told the plan, it’s very basic stuff. I really think we can do more than just knock out those Clan facilities but when I pitched my plan to Chu-sa Baruki he vetoed it immediately because it would’ve required the rest of my lance. Or maybe he just didn’t like the name I gave Jennifer’s new Hatamoto-Chi?  He told me that my lance were now “honored guests of the ISF,” and that he “wishes to keep the rest of your unit in reserve to help defend the dropship,” but I’m not an idiot. Chu-sa Baruki-chan is a Pretty Soldier DEST operative and the rest of my lance are now hostages of the ISF until I give them whatever it is they want. He said “If you think you can defeat all local Clan forces, go right ahead. We will pay you a minor bonus should you succeed.” I’m going to do it just to spite him.   Mission Track(s) Crystal Storm PTN's Note: Remember when Crystal Storm turned up a couple of missions ago and I was really surprised? That's because it's one of the most "Clan" tracks in the game. It's good to hear it again, though!   October 17, 3051 Well, I did it. That may well have been the most difficult battle of my entire career, but it’s over. Clan radio chatter suggests they’re in full-on panic mode and all it cost was my gauss rifle, two medium lasers, all of my engine shielding and a fist-sized chunk of my gyro. Chu-sa Baruki was dead silent when I returned to the DropShip, but he paid the bonus as promised. Was it worth it?   Monetarily I’m 900,000 c-bills in the hole. But that’s chump change for me now. The look on his face was priceless. With any luck, that’ll discourage his ISF commandos from betraying and murdering me on the way home. Because sure it will.
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Feb 26, 2015 22:45
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Your guest is a lot quieter than you, the music and the game audio.
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Feb 26, 2015 22:57
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I thought I fixed that. I'll give it another pass.
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Feb 26, 2015 23:04
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So dishonorable!
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Feb 26, 2015 23:51
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"That mech? Oh that mech is rubbish." Said mech proceeds to do a shitton of damage. I think the pilot heard you.
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Feb 27, 2015 00:50
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A bad Clan OmniMech is still a Clan OmniMech. And even though Clan ER PPCs are unlikely to hit, they still do 50% more damage than our PPCS and match our Gauss Rifle's power at about half the weight.
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Feb 27, 2015 01:05
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I've beaten this mission in an Atlas. I'm not sure how, but I suspect I took advantage of the terrain. Get them to peek their heads over the top, in a position where their weapons can't hit you. Craters are especially good for that, since enemies can't just go around them, unlike mountains.
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Feb 27, 2015 03:45
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I'm curious why the small ER laser. I assume that's all you had the weight and space for by the time you'd wedged in everything else?
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Feb 27, 2015 08:54
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I'm still impressed they programmed the AI to fight honorably. Pity they couldn't also be intelligent about it. I mean, what did that last guy think was going to happen after you crippled his comrade?
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Feb 27, 2015 22:00
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Speaking of which, I'm admittedly not all that familiar with the Clan rules of engagement, but surely they'd just dogpile you if you kept refusing challenges and swapping targets like that?
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Feb 27, 2015 22:06
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Kaislioc posted:Speaking of which, I'm admittedly not all that familiar with the Clan rules of engagement, but surely they'd just dogpile you if you kept refusing challenges and swapping targets like that? Eh, the Clans are all about personal honor. While they could declare you dezgra and dogpile you to death, it's within the realm of possibility that they'd just say "hey, he engaged me, my target now, back the gently caress off!" If you want to headcanon it, the fact that PTN's running around in a Timber Wolf makes it easier for the Clanners to think in terms of their own rules than if he'd been walking around in the Atlas.
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Feb 27, 2015 22:26
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Kaislioc posted:Speaking of which, I'm admittedly not all that familiar with the Clan rules of engagement, but surely they'd just dogpile you if you kept refusing challenges and swapping targets like that? Well, they've also got their own honor to look out for. I think that's why each pair waits for you to break the rules before doing so themselves.
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Feb 27, 2015 22:33
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Yeah, it takes years and years before the invading clans finally get it through their thick heads on a general basis that no one in the Inner Sphere gives a gently caress about their honor rules unless they think they can exploit them.
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Feb 28, 2015 02:56
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Kaislioc posted:Speaking of which, I'm admittedly not all that familiar with the Clan rules of engagement, but surely they'd just dogpile you if you kept refusing challenges and swapping targets like that? Remember that they're starting from the position of saving face and protecting honor, even at the cost of their own life. The Clans revile mercenaries. There's no honor to be found in killing them, even one on one, and stooping to dogpiling a single mercenary? Unthinkable. The pilots involved would never live something like that down. They seriously would march single file into the guns of a talented mechwarrior. Watching their sibko get cut down, one by one, and every single one of them would be thinking, in order, "Ha! I can't believe that moron got himself killed. Now to deal with this mercenary scu-" Edit: Although I guess the Ghost Bears might be a bit more mellow about it than that, but not by much. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 07:39 on Mar 1, 2015 |
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Mar 1, 2015 07:33
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Is the next mission the one that everyone talks about as being really, really awesome for what you can manage to do in it?
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Mar 1, 2015 12:00
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I get the reason for having ritual combat and bidding and all that, but why did they transfer their honor system to people outside the bounds of their society instead of treating them as outlaws unworthy of being shown honor?
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Mar 1, 2015 12:55
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Skippy McPants posted:Edit: Although I guess the Ghost Bears might be a bit more mellow about it than that, but not by much. The Ghost Bears hate Mercenaries more than the other Clans, not less. whowhatwhere posted:I get the reason for having ritual combat and bidding and all that, but why did they transfer their honor system to people outside the bounds of their society instead of treating them as outlaws unworthy of being shown honor? Because violating their honor rules is seen as something akin to violating the laws of gravity. The rules of honor are the first thing Trueborns are taught, and those rules are so deeply ingrained that not using them is as disconcerting for them as something that defies the natural laws of the universe would be for us. In Canon, the Clans are pretty much held up as an example of why indoctrination is bad. Their purpose-made child soldiers are raised on a steady intellectual diet of Glory, Honor, and Ritualized Murder until they're reduced to barely-functioning meat puppets who only know how to express themselves with violence. Anyone with even a little compassion probably isn't going to make it through the Clan training process and their society is so messed up that they actively praise the most creatively brutal murderers amongst them and elevate them into positions of power. By the way, Way of the Clans (Jade Phoenix book 1) is a pretty bad novel until you realize it's not a story about how great the Clan way of life is, but is instead a story pointing out how subtly or not-so-subtly wrong and horrifying their society has become.
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Mar 1, 2015 13:19
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The clans keep up their honor system when they invade, as its been so ingrained into them they cant understand that the inner sphere don't think like that, its like growing up on mars and moving to earth and still thinking of the sky as red, even though its now blue.
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Mar 1, 2015 13:21
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Think of it in real world terms. Nations have codes of conduct for warfare in this day and age. Most of it makes sense to us naturally, but imagine a foe from beyond our scope, a group so bizarrely different in culture or utterly alien that neither side can comprehend each others behavior. 'What do you mean Nation X ritualistically marinades it's PoW's in Au Jus for a month before killing them and serving them to their war leaders? How hosed up is that?' 'What, you mean Nation Y isn't killing the soldiers that surrender? They're what? They're keeping them alive and well fed, and giving them medical attention so they can be returned to us after the war? What the gently caress are they thinking?' I dunno. i feel like i have a good thought here and not a good way of presenting it.
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Mar 1, 2015 13:45
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It sounds like you're describing Blue And Orange Morality.
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Mar 1, 2015 14:55
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Another thing that's worth pointing out is that to the Clans, the IS way of thinking isn't just dishonourable, but worse. As in, less likely to succeed as strategy. Your average Clanner Mechwarrior is almost certainly a better pilot and gunner than the average IS Mechwarrior, but the Clanner would put that excellence down to their honourable ways just as much as the genetic engineering and upbringing. They don't just think they're the right ways, they think they're superior tacticians. What this ends up meaning is that paradoxically any IS unit that uses things like guerilla warfare or manipulation of challenges and actually gets some success against the Clans makes a Clanner think they're weak. And not just "Aha, look at these weaklings, who have to resort to such tactics to face us!" but "These idiots using their foolish tactics will soon be defeated! I'll march over there and stomp them out just like that!" To the Clans, it's not about applying honour-based combat to dishonourable foes and then wondering why they keep losing despite all their advantages. The idea that in the face of opposition that doesn't respect honour they should consider dropping it all wouldn't even occur to most Clanners - the idea wouldn't make any sense to them (they do, eventually, learn). They apply their ways of going about things because they genuinely believe it's the best way to win, even in the face of all the evidence against it. As it's been pointed out, they will happily march to their deaths against an enemy that's slaughtering all their comrades, because their cheating means they're weak, and it'll be easy to defeat them. Clan warriors are deeply, deeply hosed up. Revenant Threshold fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Mar 1, 2015 |
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Mar 1, 2015 17:21
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Before anyone knew anything about the Clans, Anastasius Focht (a high-up ComStar guy) first theorized the Clans were an alien race of adaptive shapeshifters a-la The Thing who ate Kerensky's people and, because they're social chameleons with no history of their own, took up the trappings of Human culture without really understanding any of it. Then ComStar found out the Clans were human and tried to make friends. Then ComStar realized Focht's first guess was closer to reality and Tukayyid happened. Edit: The only "need" a Clan warrior acknowledges is the need to reproduce. Since they're all grown in tanks until they're like, ten years old, the only way a Clanner has to pass on his or her genetics is to fight better and more honorably than all the other Clanners fighting to add to the same gene pool. Trueborn Clanners can only reproduce through physical violence. They're probably less hosed-up and less alien than they should be. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Mar 1, 2015 |
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Mar 1, 2015 19:11
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PoptartsNinja posted:Before anyone knew anything about the Clans, Anastasius Focht (a high-up ComStar guy) first theorized the Clans were an alien race of adaptive shapeshifters a-la The Thing who ate Kerensky's people and, because they're social chameleons with no history of their own, took up the trappings of Human culture without really understanding any of it. tbh this would be much more interesting.
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Mar 1, 2015 19:14
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Or the clone pods and tech are the only things that survive. A cult springs up around the apparatus and we get the weird society we love to hate.
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Mar 1, 2015 21:05
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I don't know enough about the history of the series to answer this, but does natural selection eventually bear fruit and the future generations of Clan warriors and leadership learn to adapt to the Inner Sphere? Presumably someone, at some point with two brain cells to rub together would notice the correlation between the IS's success and their use of tactics supposedly seen as inferior and dishonorable by the Clans. Hell, you'd think sooner or later Clans with ambitious leaders would make secret pacts and schemes with Inner Sphere nations for support to help them take over the Clans, like making use of the IS's larger population and production base to gain an edge on the resource-poor clans or secretly coordinating military campaigns and intelligence actions to elevate one clan over others. There has to be some clan leader out there who'd be happy to sabotage the impossible goal of clan conquest of the inner sphere in return for getting to run the clans and destroy their rivals.
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Mar 1, 2015 21:24
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Clan honor rules are 3/4 about conserving limited resources in a world where canister born idiots challenge each other to robot fights over every petty grievance. You don't gang up on people so you don't overkill the hell out of their mech, you don't run up and kick them because it's a good way to wreck both your machines, etc. You burn that poo poo hard into their inbred little brains because otherwise maintenance costs eat up what few resources you can scrape up on the lovely Clan homeworlds.
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Mar 1, 2015 21:41
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Dolash posted:I don't know enough about the history of the series to answer this, but does natural selection eventually bear fruit and the future generations of Clan warriors and leadership learn to adapt to the Inner Sphere? Presumably someone, at some point with two brain cells to rub together would notice the correlation between the IS's success and their use of tactics supposedly seen as inferior and dishonorable by the Clans..
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Mar 1, 2015 23:19
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Dolash posted:I don't know enough about the history of the series to answer this, but does natural selection eventually bear fruit and the future generations of Clan warriors and leadership learn to adapt to the Inner Sphere? Presumably someone, at some point with two brain cells to rub together would notice the correlation between the IS's success and their use of tactics supposedly seen as inferior and dishonorable by the Clans. Clan Nova Cat is unique since they're the only clan to actually realize that the IS was going to win the war, and they jumped ship as soon as it was obvious.
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Mar 2, 2015 01:59
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Dolash posted:Hell, you'd think sooner or later Clans with ambitious leaders would make secret pacts and schemes with Inner Sphere nations for support to help them take over the Clans, like making use of the IS's larger population and production base to gain an edge on the resource-poor clans or secretly coordinating military campaigns and intelligence actions to elevate one clan over others. There has to be some clan leader out there who'd be happy to sabotage the impossible goal of clan conquest of the inner sphere in return for getting to run the clans and destroy their rivals. This ends up happening quite a bit down the road. One clan ends up with an Inner Sphere pilot as a Khan who leads a good portion of the Clan into exile into the Inner Sphere. Another Clan sees the Inner Sphere's victory in a dream and joins up with them. A third eventually ends up merging with the Inner Sphere nation that it invaded. A couple end up merging with Periphery Nations. 30-40 years down the line basically every invading Clan is vastly different from the ones who stayed behind.
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Mar 2, 2015 03:25
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Elliotw2 posted:Clan Nova Cat is unique since they're the only clan to actually realize that the IS was going to win the war, and they jumped ship as soon as it was obvious. But this isn't true at all? They jumped ship because they're the super-spiritual Clan and viewed the IS forming the second Star League as clearly a sign that they were in the right, the Clan invasion was in the wrong, etc. The collapse of the second Star League a few years later sent huge shocks through the whole Clan, as something they had fundamentally believed was proved to be a lie. And then they got wiped out a bit later, because they moronically decided to settle in the Draconis Combine. Claiming the Nova Cats used any sort of intelligent thought process in their decisions is pretty off. There were Clans and Clanners who didn't really believe a victory was ever in the offing - at least not anywhere near as easily as the hopes and dreams the invasion started on - but Nova Cat is not really a good example.
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Mar 2, 2015 05:08
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