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JebanyPedal posted:Golden Sun trolled the poo poo out of me because I must have restarted the game about 4 times before I realized you were SUPPOSED to lose at that specific fight early on. I was like 11 though. Those kind of fights show up a lot in RPGs. Usually the enemy destroys you so thoroughly you'll think "oh, guess I can't win". A game is really trolling you when it seems like you CAN win but its pointless. Tales of Symphonia hosed with me this way. At one point in the game you get thrown into a boss gauntlet. First boss isn't that bad but is still the strongest one you've faced up until now. You can't lose to this guy, as you would expect. Right after you beat this guy, you have to fight another boss. This boss is also one of your former party members doing a heel turn, so I hope you weren't relying on him up until now. Now he's much harder than the first boss but it still feels like you can beat him. He's really tough unless you grind levels but the fight isn't impossibly hard, so you don't think its a fight you're supposed to lose. When I was a kid I reset the game whenever I lost to him so I didn't realize it was actually a fight you CAN lose. Oh, but its worse than that. Lets say you do beat this guy instead of losing to him. What do you get? loving NOTHING. There is absolutely no point in winning the fight. Regardless of how you do, right after the fight ANOTHER boss shows up. He will just casually oneshot your entire party, making all of your previous efforts pointless. Being able to "win" the second fight is just the game loving with you. Of course since this is a JRPG there is also a bunch of long, stupid cutscene inbetween each fight that you cannot skip. Internet Kraken has a new favorite as of 01:28 on Mar 17, 2015 |
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Mar 17, 2015 01:26
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Pound_Coin posted:Matrix: Path of Neo This is the best thing. This is better than all the movies. 
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Mar 17, 2015 01:33
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Internet Kraken posted:Those kind of fights show up a lot in RPGs. Usually the enemy destroys you so thoroughly you'll think "oh, guess I can't win". A game is really trolling you when it seems like you CAN win but its pointless. In Tales of Destiny, if you actually managed to beat Leon, in the fight you are supposed to lose, you get a "Game Over" screen, with Stahn going with....the treasure hunter lady and becoming famous treasure hunters.
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Mar 17, 2015 01:41
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The first Suikoden had an example like that. One of your party members stays behind to delay the enemy vanguard and you use him in a fight - his stats completely dependent on the equipment you've given him and the level he had. If you lose that battle the game continues but he's executed, whereas if you win the beaten enemy is weaker in a later fight and you're one step closer to the "best" ending.
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Mar 17, 2015 01:44
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Kugyou no Tenshi posted:I don't know about the first one, but in Super Paper Mario you can refuse to help and let the universe crumble into darkness right at the start of the game. Wasn't there some part where you could refuse to put on your space helmet and asphyxiate? At the beginning of some particularly terrible Harvest Moon entry your dog attacks the rear end in a top hat mayor, and if you refuse to call the dog off it kills the mayor and you get a game over.
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Mar 17, 2015 01:48
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poptart_fairy posted:The first Suikoden had an example like that. One of your party members stays behind to delay the enemy vanguard and you use him in a fight - his stats completely dependent on the equipment you've given him and the level he had. If you lose that battle the game continues but he's executed, whereas if you win the beaten enemy is weaker in a later fight and you're one step closer to the "best" ending. You talking about Pahn? I'd thought the first time I played it that you were supposed to lose the duel where you use him instead of the main character, and was totally confounded at the end of the game when he didn't get revived along with Gremio. Then I found out that you're supposed to win the duel and it's only the aforementioned other guy that's allowed to die. The Moon Monster posted:Wasn't there some part where you could refuse to put on your space helmet and asphyxiate? Yup! Right after having gone through the trouble of getting the helmet in the first place because the first time you tried to go to space you nearly died from it.
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Mar 17, 2015 01:51
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The Deus Ex games are all about exploration. You start the first mission at your base and you basally just have to go talk to your boss and get your assignment. The place is full of computers to hack, people to talk to, and things to find. The game gives you a few reminders that you should be in a hurry but certainly encourages you to look around. If you take too much time, you'll arrive t the mission site to find a bunch of cops chewing you out because you took to long and all the hostages are dead.
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Mar 17, 2015 02:00
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Internet Kraken posted:Those kind of fights show up a lot in RPGs. Usually the enemy destroys you so thoroughly you'll think "oh, guess I can't win". A game is really trolling you when it seems like you CAN win but its pointless. Star Ocean 2 was the worst game in this regard because it had unwinnable boss fights with overwhelmingly powerful enemies. It's actually kinda obvious that they're meant to be unbeatable--they move faster than you can so they can hunt down players who think they're being clever by dodging their hitboxes, they complete their spells instantly, they generally one- or two-shot you, and they're scripted to take 0 damage from almost everything--and they even scale to your level so you can't overpower them no matter what you do. The problem was, you're not actually supposed to die in some of these battles. Sometimes, you're supposed to survive for 60-120 seconds. Against enemies who move faster than you, cast spells that do max damage, and have extremely aggressive AI 
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Mar 17, 2015 03:00
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Mountaineer posted:In the strategy game Europa Universalis there's a random event where a comet is sighted and your country becomes slightly destabilized (because of superstition). Fans of the game complained that the event had no choices, as other similar events usually had alternative options for some penalty other than stability loss. It's even better than that. As of one of the patches from a few months ago if you've got a Natural Scientist as your Admin advisor when the comet turns up you actually gain stability and get a bunch of points. (For those who don't play the game, Natural Scientists are otherwise really weak advisors and you only ever hire them if there's no-one else you can afford.)
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Mar 17, 2015 03:07
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Kumaton posted:Whenever a game gives you a really useful unlock or skill after you reached a point where you don't need it, like in Hotline Miami, where the last mask you get makes it harder for people to see you. (It's remedied a bit since HM is based on high scores and replayability, but still) Fallout 2 did something like that. After you beat the game, you get dropped back into the world to finish quests or whatever. If you go talk to the priest in New Reno, he gives you a Fallout 2 Strategy Guide that maxes all your attributes and skills. I think the player character even remarks that it would have been helpful to have at the beginning of the game.
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Mar 17, 2015 03:08
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The White Dragon posted:Star Ocean 2 was the worst game in this regard because it had unwinnable boss fights with overwhelmingly powerful enemies. It's actually kinda obvious that they're meant to be unbeatable--they move faster than you can so they can hunt down players who think they're being clever by dodging their hitboxes, they complete their spells instantly, they generally one- or two-shot you, and they're scripted to take 0 damage from almost everything--and they even scale to your level so you can't overpower them no matter what you do. The real troll was somehow this game was enough to get me to play 100 or so hours on the ps1 and then replay its entirety when it was rereleased on the psp I loved the lovely little low-poly model of cooked food
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Mar 17, 2015 03:31
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The White Dragon posted:Star Ocean 2 was the worst game in this regard because it had unwinnable boss fights with overwhelmingly powerful enemies. It's actually kinda obvious that they're meant to be unbeatable--they move faster than you can so they can hunt down players who think they're being clever by dodging their hitboxes, they complete their spells instantly, they generally one- or two-shot you, and they're scripted to take 0 damage from almost everything--and they even scale to your level so you can't overpower them no matter what you do. I have no idea why I liked that game as much as I did.
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Mar 17, 2015 03:32
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As I recall the visual novel Hate Plus has an achievement on Steam that's impossible to get. So naturally people went nuts trying to figure out how to unlock something that's not even coded into the game (so it can't be unlocked with Steam Achievement Manager) to, IIRC, the extent of tying to mod in a new route that would let them unlock it.
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Mar 17, 2015 04:13
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Does the Bardock level of Xenoverse count? Because I swear to god it's loving awful. I beat some kind of demon god earlier in the game but defending this stupid, random Saiyan is impossible and it clearly doesn't matter AT loving ALL because he's meant to die anyway.
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Mar 17, 2015 08:26
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Light Gun Man posted:If we're gonna talk about it we gotta post these ... Wait, what are all these people talking about? What is Dango Rompa?
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Mar 17, 2015 11:04
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mitochondritom posted:... Wait, what are all these people talking about? What is Dango Rompa? quote:Dangan Ronpa was largely introduced to the English-speaking web through Something Awful user orenronen’s Let’s Play thread of the game. Though interest in the thread was initially minimal, more people were drawn in as the mystery unfolded. The thread generated over 800 pages of replies, making the thread one of the largest LP threads on the website.
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Mar 17, 2015 11:16
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The White Dragon posted:Star Ocean 2 was the worst game in this regard because it had unwinnable boss fights with overwhelmingly powerful enemies. It's actually kinda obvious that they're meant to be unbeatable--they move faster than you can so they can hunt down players who think they're being clever by dodging their hitboxes, they complete their spells instantly, they generally one- or two-shot you, and they're scripted to take 0 damage from almost everything--and they even scale to your level so you can't overpower them no matter what you do. I think Grandia 2 had a similar deal. There was a fight early on that you were supposed to lose, but only in a specific manner. It was (probably?) impossible to win, but if you just got taken down to 0 HP normally you'd also get a regular game-over. Instead you'd have to keep on fighting until the enemy hits and kills you with a certain specific attack, or something. So you'd still be using out all your healing and boosting items just so you can survive long enough to be killed properly. 
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Mar 17, 2015 13:31
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Internet Kraken posted:Those kind of fights show up a lot in RPGs. Usually the enemy destroys you so thoroughly you'll think "oh, guess I can't win". A game is really trolling you when it seems like you CAN win but its pointless. The worst is when you have limited resources and you use them up only to discover that it was pointless. Like, you go through your entire stash of health potions, die, and the game carries on and you realise the correct way to play it was to not use any health potions at all and save them for when they'll actually be useful.
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Mar 17, 2015 13:49
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In Wolfenstein: The New Order, after the intro part of the game deaths head makes you choose between two people. Whichever you choose changes a bunch of different little things throughout the rest of the game. If you don't choose, he threatens to kill you all. After a bit he does just that and game over.
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Mar 17, 2015 14:22
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Their flashing tongues, spitting out blood and poison.
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How is that a troll from the devs? It's a fail state of a game mechanic clearly communicated to the player.
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Mar 17, 2015 14:35
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This probably wasn't intentional, but the finale of Pokemon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire has you riding on the back of your new Mega Rayquaza into SPACE to battle against Deoxys, who you can finally catch outside of special giveaway events! It's  as all hell and was the stuff of dreams way back in the day. Here's how my battle went."Go! Rayquaza! Rayquaza Mega Evolved! Deoxys used Hyper Beam! Mega Rayquaza fainted!"
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Mar 17, 2015 14:48
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Palpek posted:How is that a troll from the devs? It's a fail state of a game mechanic clearly communicated to the player. I dunno, it struck me as a dick move on the part of the devs, hence my post. Did I miss the definition of "troll?"
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Mar 17, 2015 15:16
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malal posted:I dunno, it struck me as a dick move on the part of the devs, hence my post. Did I miss the definition of "troll?" Well I mean, trolling usually involves a swerve of some kind. The swerve of Internet trolling, for instance, is that the dude doesn't care at all about what he's saying, he just wants to watch a thread melt down. The dude promising to kill you and then actually doing it after a while doesn't qualify imo. That's a good segment of the game, though.
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Mar 17, 2015 15:39
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One of the simplest and best trolls I've seen is a hidden warp pipe area in Mario 2 (lost levels) on world 3 or so, where the only warp pipe option is a pipe that takes you back to world 1. They also have a pit for suicide one you're done laughing, but that game is stingy at best with its extra lives
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Mar 17, 2015 15:44
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Well I mean, trolling usually involves a swerve of some kind. The swerve of Internet trolling, for instance, is that the dude doesn't care at all about what he's saying, he just wants to watch a thread melt down. The dude promising to kill you and then actually doing it after a while doesn't qualify imo. I mean usually during these choices it'll just hang until you pick so if anything I think it's a good thing they don't make it so comical as death's head will stand there for 6 hours.
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Mar 17, 2015 16:04
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Well I mean, trolling usually involves a swerve of some kind. The swerve of Internet trolling, for instance, is that the dude doesn't care at all about what he's saying, he just wants to watch a thread melt down. The dude promising to kill you and then actually doing it after a while doesn't qualify imo. I think the "swerve" might be interpreted as a defiance of expectations. Most games will just have the NPC repeat the line every time, never making good on the threat. At least, it strikes me as similar as letting a player say "no" to saving the world and giving them a game over because it's well established that you have to say yes and the game wont let you do anything else. On the subject of adventure game fail states: Myst had a few. In brief, you're plopped on an island with not a soul in sight, after some searching you find two books, which seem to have a brother trapped in each, who implore you to find the pages to restore the book and free them, telling you not to free the other brother. It's been awhile since I've played, but the game definitely gives you some serious hints that neither brother is up to much good, but if you chose to ignore those hints and complete their quest anyways, you find that you end up switching places, getting trapped in book in place of whatever brother you free. Doesn't matter which brother you free, you lose. The proper ending is finding that the father is also trapped in another book, but you can still screw it up by not bringing the page he needs and ending up trapped when you visit him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMZnqvouMFE None of them are quite as dickish as previously mentioned failstates because it's fairly easy to reload a save and just not do the dumb thing, but there's something amusing about being able to get chewed out for being a total idiot by the guy who made the game (or at least, the guy who made the game playing a character.) While also not quite a troll, in Myst III, there's a fail state segment where if you don't activate a switch quickly enough to stop a crazy guy from getting to you, you get bludgeoned to death (or at least knocked out and forced to reload) - this coming from a game where you can't die and fail-states are pretty much non-existent, it surprised me and my sister at the time who didn't expect it to actually happen.
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Mar 17, 2015 16:07
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Oxyclean posted:I think the "swerve" might be interpreted as a defiance of expectations. Most games will just have the NPC repeat the line every time, never making good on the threat. At least, it strikes me as similar as letting a player say "no" to saving the world and giving them a game over because it's well established that you have to say yes and the game wont let you do anything else. Fair enough, guess I just saw it as a game finally making good on the seriousness of a choice. Anyway, a conversation about dickish adventure games isn't complete without King's Quest, the game where you have to tell the character to swim when you enter water. That's one of those cases where I don't know if it was just an odd design choice, but the first game also lets you pull a rock and crush yourself if you don't move it from the correct side.
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Mar 17, 2015 16:58
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Regarding discussion of difficult to win battles that don't matter, I'm reminded of the intro to blitzball in Final Fantasy X. Blitzball's basically underwater rugby, and the first time you play it is mandatory, but you're against a team that at the time is MUCH better than you. It's EXTREMELY hard to beat them, but not impossible. This is the only mandatory time you have to play the game. If you lose, the game plays on as normal, as it expect you to. If you win, your main character gets this trophy he carries through the rest of the game, that actively effects nothing. That's the only real difference. I won't admit how many hours I spent getting good at Blitzball. A different type of troll that comes to mind is in Metal Gear Solid 3. That game takes place chronologically before the rest of the series. There's a character, Revolver Ocelot, that is important in the series, and early in 3 you get in a fight with him. If you defeat him using lethal methods (which nothing tells you you can't at the time), you get a game over, and the screen says "A time paradox was created."
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Mar 17, 2015 17:00
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Choco1980 posted:A different type of troll that comes to mind is in Metal Gear Solid 3. That game takes place chronologically before the rest of the series. There's a character, Revolver Ocelot, that is important in the series, and early in 3 you get in a fight with him. If you defeat him using lethal methods (which nothing tells you you can't at the time), you get a game over, and the screen says "A time paradox was created." I think it should be clarified that: 1. The "fight" you are talking about is a cutscene 2. After the cutscene you can execute him while he's unconscious lying on the ground, resulting in a Game Over 3. You actually get to fight him later and you can use lethal weapons on him. Depleting his health will have no effect on the actual storyline as he won't be killed. tbh I find it to be a bit of an annoying inconsistency. It would've been funnier if the actual boss fight resulted in a Game Over if fought incorrectly, which would truly make it a troll. WaltherFeng has a new favorite as of 17:30 on Mar 17, 2015 |
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Mar 17, 2015 17:04
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ChaosArgate posted:This probably wasn't intentional, but the finale of Pokemon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire has you riding on the back of your new Mega Rayquaza into SPACE to battle against Deoxys, who you can finally catch outside of special giveaway events! It's Where is the trolling in this? (I've never played a Pokemon game.)
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Mar 17, 2015 17:05
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Jerry Cotton posted:Where is the trolling in this? (I've never played a Pokemon game.) You get a big new toy and then the stats on the enemy you get to fight and capture got rolled such so that it was faster than my big fancy dragon that didn't get to do anything. Like I said, probably not intentional!
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Mar 17, 2015 17:22
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I thought I heard there's no save point between Rayquaza and Deoxys? For those unfamiliar, legendary pokemon can be VERY annoying to capture, at least, I've certainly had times where I've burned through 100 ultra balls to try to capture a legendary that had a sliver of health and is a sleep, only for it to wake up, be out of moves, which causes it to use struggle and KO itself. Not having a save between them isn't so much a troll as it would be a dick move - although I suppose you could consider it a troll for people who reset if the legendary doesn't have the right nature (a stat randomized when you first capture, with no the way to change it other then to save scum and capture again and again )
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Mar 17, 2015 17:30
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Oxyclean posted:I thought I heard there's no save point between Rayquaza and Deoxys? For those unfamiliar, legendary pokemon can be VERY annoying to capture, at least, I've certainly had times where I've burned through 100 ultra balls to try to capture a legendary that had a sliver of health and is a sleep, only for it to wake up, be out of moves, which causes it to use struggle and KO itself. I think I used drat near every ball I had in my inventory catching Mewtwo in X. Finally, the instant catch chance proc'd on a Premiere Ball. Kinda wish they made Master Balls more available to the player; I get that part of what makes legendaries so cool is that they take so much effort to catch, but restricting you to just one Master Ball every game while they add more and more legendaries to each one is kinda bullshit.
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Mar 17, 2015 17:36
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There isn't, but that's almost par for the course by now. What probably can be considered a troll though is giving a legendary a healing move. Guess what the box legendaries of Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire have?
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Mar 17, 2015 17:40
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ChaosArgate posted:There isn't, but that's almost par for the course by now. What probably can be considered a troll though is giving a legendary a healing move. Guess what the box legendaries of Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire have? And Primal Groudon has Desloate Land, which causes harsh sunlight - negating all Water-type moves. Rest + removing his most-used weakness = Three attempts, the final successful one requiring four or so Dusk Balls. Funny enough, you can get more Master Balls in ORAS if you play games on the Pokemon Global Link.
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Mar 17, 2015 17:47
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Kugyou no Tenshi posted:I would like to point out that Wishbringer, one of Infocom's few adventure games that were completely logical, did not require a ton of foreknowledge, and could be beaten with a full score after just a few tries, was rated more or less as a children's game by the developers. Let that sink in - if you wanted to play a text adventure game that made any drat sense whatsoever, you had to buy from the "kiddie games" rack alongside Reader Rabbit and Math Blasters. Don't get me wrong - I love a good puzzle. I love a good hard puzzle, and I can even tolerate puzzles that sort of make sense after solving them. But so many puzzles of the text adventure era only made marginal sense after solving them, at best, and made no sense as a line from start-to-finish, because they were designed in entirely the opposite direction. Holy poo poo. I thought i was the only one. Me and my sister blazed through willy beamish just using our vast 7 year old intelligence up to the point im sure your talking about (something involving a fish tank or hooks or something i think... been a while). We actually convinced my dad to order the loving hint book with that piece of red plastic you need to use to read the hints. We tried so many times to get through that part even with the hint book and kept getting the cutscene youre talking about and id automatically just load the save game again and try and try until i finally gave up and watched that god forsaken death scene.... only for it to continue past the point where i normally would have died. me and my sister still talk about that bullshit to this day.
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Mar 17, 2015 17:49
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Kugyou no Tenshi posted:And Primal Groudon has Desloate Land, which causes harsh sunlight - negating all Water-type moves. Rest + removing his most-used weakness = Three attempts, the final successful one requiring four or so Dusk Balls. Strangely, the RNG was very kind to me the day I caught Primal Groudon. Did it on my first attempt, second ball thrown (it was a Premiere Ball). That came back to bite me when I went to get literally any other optional legendary though, which all took at least two tries because the first run sucked and I would always run out of Poke Balls.
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Mar 17, 2015 17:50
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ScreamingNinja posted:Holy poo poo. I thought i was the only one. Me and my sister blazed through willy beamish just using our vast 7 year old intelligence up to the point im sure your talking about (something involving a fish tank or hooks or something i think... been a while). We actually convinced my dad to order the loving hint book with that piece of red plastic you need to use to read the hints. The one I was remembering was the scene with the ninja family. If you haven't done everything right up to that point, you get a cutscene where you get jumped in an alleyway (if memory serves)...and if you have done everything right, you get the same cutscene with the same dialogue up until the ninjas show up.
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Mar 17, 2015 17:55
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Choco1980 posted:Regarding discussion of difficult to win battles that don't matter, I'm reminded of the intro to blitzball in Final Fantasy X. Blitzball's basically underwater rugby, and the first time you play it is mandatory, but you're against a team that at the time is MUCH better than you. It's EXTREMELY hard to beat them, but not impossible. This is the only mandatory time you have to play the game. If you lose, the game plays on as normal, as it expect you to. If you win, your main character gets this trophy he carries through the rest of the game, that actively effects nothing. That's the only real difference. I won't admit how many hours I spent getting good at Blitzball. Making the Blitzball tutorial one of the hardest Blitzball games is a troll by itself, you barely get given the opportunity to learn the game before you lose it.
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Mar 17, 2015 23:23
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the secret to winning that game is score once or twice then just gently caress around behind the goal for as long as possible, the defense won't fore check and hopefully when wakka comes in he doesn't gently caress everything up
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Mar 17, 2015 23:29
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