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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:It's also designed for planetary bombardment, so I suppose to appease your It's a space B-52; it's too big to be based on the space-aircraft carriers and is based on planets instead. It can land or dock with the Bengals, but it would probably get in the way of  the fighters around the flight deck.Looking at it in the hanger, I expect they're going to have issues down the road as usual. The wings and most of the engines are at the back, but 4/6 torpedoes are up front.
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Mar 23, 2015 15:26
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you can say the variable configuration allows it to operate in a wide variety of atmospheric conditions.
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DancingShade posted:I still think a literal B-29 only with the propellers swapped for rocket engines would have been the best version. A B-36 with its 10 engines would have been funnier: "...two turning, two burning, two joking, and two smoking, with two engines not accounted for."
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Mar 23, 2015 15:32
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TasogareNoKagi posted:It's a space B-52; Ahem.  
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Mar 23, 2015 15:57
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Look at that jet, all the engines are to the rear. How do they think its supposed to fly? I bet they only gave it TR1 maneuvering thrusters too  Also: no turrets and the specs don't even mention an energy shield. What bullshit.
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Mar 23, 2015 16:24
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They should make a DC-8 shaped spaceship with no explanation at all. And I hope to heck someone gets this reference.
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Mar 23, 2015 16:29
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Warcabbit posted:They should make a DC-8 shaped spaceship with no explanation at all. ^ Xenu likes this post.
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Mar 23, 2015 16:32
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Airplane!
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Mar 23, 2015 16:33
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sorla78 posted:M50 Low Pass: loving awesome. Interesting that the top speeds seem to be relatively low. It's the same in E:D. I assume this is because of the G force limit on human pilots? Our current military jets get up to well over double those top speeds (F22 without using afterburners even). From what I've read there are planned to be two flight modes, with all ships having a 'supercruise' of 0.2c, just seems that 300m/s being top flight speed when dogfighting etc. is a bit odd. Any rational from CIG, i.e. is it just a gameplay thing?
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Mar 23, 2015 17:14
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El Grillo posted:loving awesome. The extremely short answer is: 1- Hardware/Networking limitations. Ping Time + Fast objects don't mix well. Game engine has a 500 m/s speed limit (for player controlled objects) 2- Gameplay. Modern jets go much faster, real spacecraft go much faster. But modern military hardware also relies on missiles. SC is a game where you line up your guns on a target WW2 dogfighting style.
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Mar 23, 2015 17:18
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El Grillo posted:loving awesome. If i remember correctly they once said that they wanted to limit the speed in game in order to make the whole thing more playable and enjoyble. But i cannot surce my quote as i don't remember where i read it. Note that a few ships(like the Avenger) are provided not with the higher engine level, so they will probably be able to go faster
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Mar 23, 2015 17:21
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:I'd like to borrow $200M
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gently caress it. They should just take every single WW2 fighter and bomber, switch out the prop for a jet and turn it into spaceplanes.
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Mar 23, 2015 17:25
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Eldragon posted:The extremely short answer is: Ping + fast objects mix just as well as ping + slow objects. Ridiculous acceleration might cause some stuttering depending on tick rate, but speed never. The problem with speed is float point precision. With double precision happening, that issue is gone. So the only reason left after we have double precision is gameplay, really. We're at ww2 speeds right now pretty much. No need to go away from that IMO.
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Mar 23, 2015 17:42
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 Plz the Bone is way loving cooler. I mean it's called the Bone
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Mar 23, 2015 17:43
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So a long time ago I bought the Hornet F7C package. (Edit, and from looking at it I guess I didn't even get LTI?) I barely remember doing this and have really only been following the game vicariously. I guess now would be a fine time to actually download the game and play? Also on a scale from a little to a lot how much money did I waste? All I know is everybody talks about how the Super Hornet is so much better and I feel like a scrub.
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Mar 23, 2015 17:52
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Michaellaneous posted:gently caress it. They should just take every single WW2 fighter and bomber, switch out the prop for a jet and turn it into spaceplanes. There's a recent short interview clip on youtube of someone asking Chris Roberts about the cryengine license. (I should really bookmark this stuff), he said they own the code outright and can whatever they want as long as it's part of the Star Citizen game. So a lot further down the road, assuming this game is amazing as promised etc, there is a lot of potential for what they can do in Arena Commander as it's a virtual software entertainment system set in the universe of the far future. The recent reference to "Historical Battles" in Arena Commander would most likely mean space battles with current game assets, the Retaliator especially being a good candidate for this due to it's role and description "The Retaliator is the United Earth Empire’s premiere, if aging, jump-capable heavy bomber" Chris Roberts is a WWII nerd so never say never. edit found the link, Chris Roberts Discusses CryEngine AP fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Mar 23, 2015 |
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Mar 23, 2015 17:53
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Truga posted:Ping + fast objects mix just as well as ping + slow objects. Ridiculous acceleration might cause some stuttering depending on tick rate, but speed never. The problem with speed is float point precision. With double precision happening, that issue is gone. I see this hilarious assertion on the brown sea constantly. You've been drinking from the brown sea too much. Double precision solves the rounding errors that occur when doing vector math. Also you get closer to the edge of the map, the rounding errors get more pronounced because you are approaching the boundaries of the floating point number. Floating point rounding errors is a factor, but switching to double precision does not solve it. The real problem is Ping (aka the lag time between the server and client(s)). I could write at length at all the problem ping plays in keeping objects between clients synced, but I'll just leave you with this very simple example: If you have a 100 ms ping, and your object is traveling 1000 m/s, that means there is a 100 meter margin of error between where the server thinks your ship is, where your client thinks your ship is, and where the other clients thinks your ship is. Game programmers compensate for this difference by writing prediction routines. Writing a prediction routine for a Train traveling at 1000 m/s is easy. Its on the track. Its speed might be changing, but its direction is not. Its operating on a single,very predictable axis. Compare that to writing a prediction routine for space-jets with 6DOF of freedom. Not only do you need to predict if the space-jet has changed its Yaw/Pitch/Roll, but it can also strafe on the XYZ axis. TLDR: Predictive routines are not going to be able to accurately model this, and the faster the object, the larger ther margin of error.
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Mar 23, 2015 18:11
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M_Gargantua posted:So a long time ago I bought the Hornet F7C package. (Edit, and from looking at it I guess I didn't even get LTI?) I barely remember doing this and have really only been following the game vicariously. I guess now would be a fine time to actually download the game and play? Also on a scale from a little to a lot how much money did I waste? All I know is everybody talks about how the Super Hornet is so much better and I feel like a scrub. Did you get Alpha access? Because at least that'll stop you needing to spend $15 on module passes over the next few months.
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Mar 23, 2015 18:14
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ROCKET SCIENCE
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You wrote a lot of words about something I've worked on IRL. Good job. Now explain why I can fly mach 2 in DCS (or IL-2 for crying out loud), and yet there's zero issues with it? illectro posted:Haven't the devs already commented on prediction desync bugs being caused by players adjusting the amount of power available to the engines and that change not being communicated across to the server? Prediction in multiplayer games is a huge bitch to tackle, and something I envy absolutely nobody, but yeah, desyncs happen due to bugs or idiots with 3000 ping dicking about your server, not speed. Truga fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Mar 23, 2015 |
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Mar 23, 2015 18:16
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Bolow posted:
Which is why, by extension, the Retaliator is cool. They straight up used pictures of the Bone while making it.
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Mar 23, 2015 18:16
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Eldragon posted:Game programmers compensate for this difference by writing prediction routines. Writing a prediction routine for a Train traveling at 1000 m/s is easy. Its on the track. Its speed might be changing, but its direction is not. Its operating on a single,very predictable axis. Haven't the devs already commented on prediction desync bugs being caused by players adjusting the amount of power available to the engines and that change not being communicated across to the server?
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Mar 23, 2015 18:16
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Truga posted:You wrote a lot of words about something I've worked on IRL. Good job. Tick rate and the number of objects' location/orientation that must be tracked per tick?
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Mar 23, 2015 18:19
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illectro posted:Haven't the devs already commented on prediction desync bugs being caused by players adjusting the amount of power available to the engines and that change not being communicated across to the server? If you're referring to the comments I think you are, that was specifically a bug in their state syncing code where they weren't communicating the changed state of engine power to the server whatsoever, rather than the state getting desynced from communications delay. Same essential result, different root cause.
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Mar 23, 2015 18:31
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Contingency posted:Tick rate and the number of objects' location/orientation that must be tracked per tick? But that's a bandwidth, not a latency issue. My point is, high acceleration, especially when coupled with a high latency can introduce jerkiness into your game. This is very very bad, because it's both annoying and looks poo poo when a guy is jumping between single frames on your screen. Enjoy your whack-a-mole shooter. This was a common occurrence in the analog modem age with the "best" predictions, in games where the speed isn't exactly fast compared to spaceships. Someone decides to start moving, 300ms later the data gets to you and he's half a block away because by the time "hey, this guy is moving in that direction" gets to you, according to your client's prediction he's already all the way over there. High speed alone, on the other hand, doesn't really do this, if I fly at 1000m/s with 100 ping, I'll be 100m behind me on the server. This isn't a huge deal, I'll still be flying at 1000m/s for everyone else smoothly, and won't act in a jerky manner. I might get hit by a bullet that should have passed 100m behind me, but honestly who here can say they have 0.1s reflexes for that to even matter? All that said, I didn't exactly dig deep into how SC netcode works yet. If speed+ping alone is causing them actual dessync problems, rather than negligible inconvenience, oh boy are they in for a treat, because it points to a really loving terrible implementation of their latency logic. Which, honestly, wouldn't exactly surprise me either, considering how other things have gone with SC in the past.
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Mar 23, 2015 18:46
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illectro posted:Did you get Alpha access? Because at least that'll stop you needing to spend $15 on module passes over the next few months. Yes, so I guess not all is wasted.
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Mar 23, 2015 18:52
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M_Gargantua posted:Yes, so I guess not all is wasted. Yeah at this point when you consider the cheapest ship (The Aurora ES) is $35 and $15 for the passes it's awfully close to full price, makes it harder to justify the game as a pre-order when you only save a small amount compared to a future, better release. Getting in early seems to have been more viable.
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Mar 23, 2015 19:10
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Truga posted:You wrote a lot of words about something I've worked on IRL. Good job. I've only played the single player DCS game, Is DCS world a functioning MMO? Keeping cheating in check? Even ignoring all the server side data tracking/authoritative issues, Airplanes are more predictable than spaceplanes. They don't strafe and turn on a dime like SC ships do. If someone took the DCS engine, gave airplanes the abilities SC craft have (strafe, boost, decouple, etc), sync issues are going to show up. DCS isn't designed for space-plane dogfighting at 1000 m/s no more than cry engine is. There is no doubt in my mind that the DCS devs have put a lot of effort into making their predictive code top notch for the handful of planes they need to support. CIG could certainly put a ton of effort into making the prediction code excellent, but they also need to prevent cheating, have reliable hit detection, etc. I'm not saying higher speeds are impossible, I'm saying the have huge technical hurdles to overcome because Ping + Speed is a difficult problem to solve. Certainly not solved by just switching to double precision. Truga posted:High speed alone, on the other hand, doesn't really do this, if I fly at 1000m/s with 100 ping, I'll be 100m behind me on the server. This isn't a huge deal, I'll still be flying at 1000m/s for everyone else smoothly, and won't act in a jerky manner. I might get hit by a bullet that should have passed 100m behind me, but honestly who here can say they have 0.1s reflexes for that to even matter?. If your only concern is keeping the ships from looking jerky, then yes speed isn't a problem. Your example is admitting a discrepancy between the client and server. But when you're dogfighting at 1000 m/s, having shots miss is a very big deal. What happens on my screen my bullets are hitting you, but on your screen (and the server) my bullets are 100m behind you. Its terrible and frustrating. You don't need to have .1s reflexes to see this problem, you just need to have a situation where the client isn't up to date on where the server is tracking the object. Host State Rewind solves a lot of this, but that just turns the frustration from the attacker to the target. Which is most apparent when you see the other guy missing you, but the server is registering damage.
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Mar 23, 2015 19:11
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I'd like to mention War Thunder in the netcode/flying debate: Up to 32 Players in a match (with cheat protection) Speeds up to ~300m/s max G allowed 6-12g (depending on the plane) up to 14 guns firing at more thann 700 rpm each. (each shot gets simulated, if you believe :gaijin:) And the felt latency is zero. Unless you do have a ping greater than ~250 ms, or package loss. But that's a given. The max g-forces are similar to the limit as set in SC. EDIT Also most maps features at least 60 NPC units (ground, sea and/or air). Tank Boy Ken fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Mar 23, 2015 |
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Mar 23, 2015 19:28
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Truga posted:But that's a bandwidth, not a latency issue. It is a latency issue, and also server-side resource utilization. 15 tick = 67 ms between updates, so an average of 33 ms of extra latency tacked on to what you do and what everyone else sees. The difference between a WW II flight sim and other games is the amount of objects to track. I've only played IL2 briefly, but I imagine the ground is static--the focus on tracking is on the planes, their pieces, and non-bullet projectiles. Just like early-2000s FPS games with static environments, you can have a very high tick rate. Compare to something like Battlefield, where you have tick rate of 10, so updates every 10th of a second. BF3 took shortcuts to reduce the size of updates--if you knocked a box around, physics was performed on the client and not shared with everyone.You'd be hiding behind a box, but to at least a portion of the players, you'd be visible. In a space sim, if pieces of debris/asteroids will be tracked and not falling to earth, the exact location, orientation, and momentum of those pieces must be tracked. If you are budgeting server resources, you have to make a decision on tick rate early on. If you go with a low tick rate, then the increased interval between ticks makes accurate player interpolation much more difficult. Constraining player speed can help with this somewhat--it's not too bad if you have a 5m^3 box of possible player positions instead of a 15m^3 box. You are correct that modeling a plane instead of a spaceship that can turn on a dime makes interpolation easier as the number of possible locations is reduced, but increased speed will make the box bigger regardless.
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Mar 23, 2015 19:33
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A little side project I did to thank Chelsea for outstanding Customer Service.  I sent a whole package... made 2 bottles, one for Chris and one for Chelsea for helping me out with an issue I was having on the account... also sent Stylus pens for the whole community team and some bamboo note pads for the team as well.
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Mar 23, 2015 19:42
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Eldragon posted:If your only concern is keeping the ships from looking jerky, then yes speed isn't a problem. Your example is admitting a discrepancy between the client and server. But when you're dogfighting at 1000 m/s, having shots miss is a very big deal. What happens on my screen my bullets are hitting you, but on your screen (and the server) my bullets are 100m behind you. Its terrible and frustrating. You don't need to have .1s reflexes to see this problem, you just need to have a situation where the client isn't up to date on where the server is tracking the object. Host State Rewind solves a lot of this, but that just turns the frustration from the attacker to the target. Which is most apparent when you see the other guy missing you, but the server is registering damage. Yes, this is exactly what I wanted to say. For fast paced action games (which I think we both agree SC is), you see what was happening <ping> milliseconds ago and adjust your actions accordingly. You come to terms with this, because the alternative is you get some jackass who clogs his bandwidth (or plays on a 14400 modem) and kills you after firing into thin air, because his client is showing you floating about like a soggy mattress in straight lines, and all he does is points and clicks at the lead indicator. I'll take me not killing someone I thought I hit over people killing me before they appear from behind the asteroid. E: especially in a game where exploding means I might actually lose something. Hell, you can introduce the ping factor into your lead indicator, too, that's what it's there for after all. Who cares if it calculates internet latency along with weapon flight latency? Truga fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Mar 23, 2015 |
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Mar 23, 2015 19:45
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Truga posted:Yes, this is exactly what I wanted to say. For me it depends on the genre. For FPS games I prefer no Host State Rewind (HSR) because normally you have hitscan rapid fire weapons where only few bullets kill and I can just spray-and-pray the lag away. Staying alive means having cover, so I like to know that when I'm behind cover I know I'm safe. However for Mechwarrior Online, the difference between with/without HSR was night and day. (Where they added HSR 6 mo. into the beta) That game was slow fire right hitscan weapons (lasers), where missing your shot was a serious problem. And while cover was important, for all but the light mechs getting behind cover was a slow affair, so getting shot through cover was rare. Being a light mech pre-HSR made you practically immortal. For SC I'm not sure which is better. There isn't much cover, and lots of repeating weapons, so probably no HSR is better, and I can just accept that fast agile ships will be really hard to hit.
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Mar 23, 2015 20:36
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Zeike posted:A little side project I did to thank Chelsea for outstanding Customer Service. Wow they must have solved you a huge problem to get all that stuff plus many bucks
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Mar 23, 2015 20:52
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RattiRatto posted:Wow they must have solved you a huge problem to get all that stuff plus many bucks Home brewing small batches isn't to expensive. Shipping however... How much for a bottle of your fine wares Zeike?
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Mar 23, 2015 21:02
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I'm sorry
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Mar 23, 2015 21:50
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I'm sure you will pay dearly for that mistake. No need for us to berate you.
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Mar 23, 2015 21:55
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Komrade, you must look to the future! http://uk.businessinsider.com/russias-next-generation-transport-plane-2015-3
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Mar 23, 2015 22:27
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People who send alcohol to game developers are weird.
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Mar 23, 2015 22:29
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:People who send alcohol to game developers are weird. They probably can't keep up with the speed of development and want them to continue at a more sedated pace. We're all weird.
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Mar 23, 2015 22:35
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Tank Boy Ken posted:They probably can't keep up with the speed of development and want them to continue at a more sedated pace. We're all weird. Yeah. At least that guy didn't do something super weird like brew his own booze or something.
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Mar 23, 2015 22:37
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Truga posted:My point is, high acceleration, especially when coupled with a high latency can introduce jerkiness into your game. This is very very bad, because it's both annoying and looks poo poo when a guy is jumping between single frames on your screen. Enjoy your whack-a-mole shooter. This was a common occurrence in the analog modem age with the "best" predictions, in games where the speed isn't exactly fast compared to spaceships. Someone decides to start moving, 300ms later the data gets to you and he's half a block away because by the time "hey, this guy is moving in that direction" gets to you, according to your client's prediction he's already all the way over there. I do not think it is THAT bad. The thing about these imaginary spaceships is that the imaginary thrusters take time to re-align and to reach maximum power to actually cause course change. When you push forward on your stick, your client can send to the server your desired move, but that does not mean that the move for you is instant. Your thrusters start to align to carry out that move. The server which accepts the signal knows this and can calculate your thruster position and send it to other clients before your thrusters even reach the desired alignment and will start having an effect on your course. Sure ping plays a role, but it is not as bad as in Cod or some other very twitchy games where the mouse move or a button push is instantly translated to position change.
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