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JeffersonClay posted:Is an acceptable definition of cultural appropriation "infringement on the expressive exclusivity of oppressed people over their cultural referents"? I would take out the exclusive part and and something about usage of a ritual or artifact outside of its cultural context.
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Mar 27, 2015 23:19
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JeffersonClay posted:Is an acceptable definition of cultural appropriation "infringement on the expressive exclusivity of oppressed people over their cultural referents"? Wikipedia posted:Cultural appropriation is the adoption of elements of one culture by members of a different cultural group who may eventually become the new face of said cultural practices, passing the illusion that certain cultural practices are authentic to them. Cultural appropriation is the act of copying another people's culture to the extent that it may eventually seem authentic to the mimicker. People may begin to associate certain cultural practices with the mimicker, and not the people who the practices originally belonged to. Specifically, the use by cultural outsiders of a minority, oppressed culture's symbols or other cultural elements, music, dance etc.[1][2] It differs from acculturation or assimilation in that cultural "appropriation" or "misappropriation" refers to the adoption of these cultural elements, taken from minority cultures by members of the dominant culture, and then using these elements outside of their original cultural context. This cultural property may be forms of dress or personal adornment, music or art, religion, language, intellectual property or social behavior, all of which may have deep cultural meaning to the original culture, but may be used as fashion by those from outside that culture.
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Mar 27, 2015 23:20
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I was hoping for a more concise definition but thanks for the wiki paragraphs. blackguy32 posted:I would take out the exclusive part and and something about usage of a ritual or artifact outside of its cultural context. Definition should include things like names, dialects, vocabulary. The black women accusing gay men of cultural appropriation are saying "stop using our style of speech and mannerisms, they aren't yours" which implies exclusivity is a critical part of the definition.
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Mar 27, 2015 23:36
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The term is way too vague and shifts between use as a noun (end result) verb (action) which makes it even muddier. If it's meant to be the negative result of cultural contact (which is constant and ongoing) thats fine but I think it is a poor term for that. The "misappropriation" in the Wikipedia article is a better term for that, the end result not the process. The actual idea of unwanted/unethical borrowing isn't really hard to imagine. Group A has sacred music that is only used in a certain context not meant for "outsiders" and a researcher records and disseminates it, is that the right decision? probably not! Or Marginalized group makes music but isn't marketable because of racism, I purposely promote and make bands in that musical style from the majority group. Is that unethical and a bad thing ? probably. Lumius fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Mar 27, 2015 |
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Mar 27, 2015 23:42
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Really, hardly anyone (in the world) is suggesting that some sort of legal action be taken to account for cultural appropriation or even derogatory speech. (Please, now post examples of people demanding laws to control speech, so that I can point out how marginal and irrelevant they are.) What is happening is that minorities are talking about their own experiences, which is free speech. But free speech used to be a right extended to whites alone, with the understanding that the speech of minorities would be controlled by extrajudicial means (terrorism). Minorities having the ability to speak about their own experiences has proven to be quite intolerable to certain types. As for the Redskins and cultural appropriation, the fact that it has been raised is absurd and damning of those types because they view challenging even the most overt racism as absurd and giving into the forces of political correctness.
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Mar 27, 2015 23:57
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SedanChair posted:Really, hardly anyone (in the world) is suggesting that some sort of legal action be taken to account for cultural appropriation or even derogatory speech. (Please, now post examples of people demanding laws to control speech, so that I can point out how marginal and irrelevant they are.) Pretty much. Nobody realistically expects cultural appropriation to be legislated, that's merely a diversionary strawman from folks who disagree with the fundamental concept. Objection to the idea tends to bounce between "children are dying in Syria how can we talk about this" and "slippery slope into 1984".
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Mar 28, 2015 00:05
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Suppose your family has some really special and unique holiday (say, Christmas) tradition. Maybe you all bake cinnamon rolls with your great grandmother's special recipe, and you've resolved to do it only once a year and never share them with people outside your family. It's your family's special thing, and it's very important to you that this be part of your family...but now look! Oh no! the recipe got outside your family! The rolls are delicious, so that's not too bad, but look! They're selling them year round and ignoring all the tradition that goes along with it! You complain, but everyone ignores you, because they're too busy eating cinnamon rolls. You'd feel a little pissed off and disrespected, right? It's not the end of the world, but hey, seems reasonable to be at least bothered. Now imagine if you're a member of a minority culture, and this is happening with parts of your culture--very important parts, parts that are symbolically important to you (or parts they plainly don't understand: take people who get Chinese or Japanese character tattoos, and who don't speak Chinese or Japanese). It's not like it's an impossibly hard thing to grasp, nor is it impossible to actually see why someone reasonable could think it's harmful. Cultural (mis)appropriation is a thing that happens, and it can be kind of harmful to a minority culture. (the cinnamon roll example is a distant relative of an anecdote Peter Reinhart tells in The Bread Baker's Apprentice about cooking panettone and Stollen for a group of German chefs and telling them they're basically the same bread...they were offended, and Reinhart speculates it's because of the cultural and religious significance of the breads).
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Mar 28, 2015 00:06
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Suppose your family has some really special and unique holiday (say, Christmas) tradition. Maybe you all bake cinnamon rolls with your great grandmother's special recipe, and you've resolved to do it only once a year and never share them with people outside your family. It's your family's special thing, and it's very important to you that this be part of your family...but now look! Oh no! the recipe got outside your family! The rolls are delicious, so that's not too bad, but look! They're selling them year round and ignoring all the tradition that goes along with it! You complain, but everyone ignores you, because they're too busy eating cinnamon rolls. And then the next time you go to the supermarket to buy dough ingredients, in the flour aisle instead of your favorite all-purpose flour there's a white settler wearing a floppy-brimmed hat, seated in a hunch on the shelf, and he shoots your son in the chest with a pistol ball. Your family is rounded up and put in concentration camps, and for five generations, any time your descendants dare to whisper the words "cinnamon roll" a schoolmarm smacks them across the mouth.
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Mar 28, 2015 00:22
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Suppose your family has some really special and unique holiday (say, Christmas) tradition. Maybe you all bake cinnamon rolls with your great grandmother's special recipe, and you've resolved to do it only once a year and never share them with people outside your family. It's your family's special thing, and it's very important to you that this be part of your family...but now look! Oh no! the recipe got outside your family! The rolls are delicious, so that's not too bad, but look! They're selling them year round and ignoring all the tradition that goes along with it! You complain, but everyone ignores you, because they're too busy eating cinnamon rolls. I don't understand the ire directed towards tattoos with Chinese characters nor how it is cultural misappropriation. I get a character for what I think is water of my arm because water means a lot to me (or something) -- I walk around china town and see the same character everywhere. I know it represents the word for water why does it matter if I speak Chinese? Is the purpose of the character not supposed to transmit the meaning. Transculturation is a continual process so I feel like examples like that are odd and probably why people get really riled up when discussion "cultural appropriation". Like if there was a deep symbolism behind the character and it was used only in certain religious context and was considered sacred sure, but come on.
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Mar 28, 2015 00:34
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what if the term 'redskins' meant a football team? you kind of take away the power of the word as a slur in that sense.
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Mar 28, 2015 01:00
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Lumius posted:I don't understand the ire directed towards tattoos with Chinese characters nor how it is cultural misappropriation. I get a character for what I think is water of my arm because water means a lot to me (or something) -- I walk around china town and see the same character everywhere. I know it represents the word for water why does it matter if I speak Chinese? Is the purpose of the character not supposed to transmit the meaning. Transculturation is a continual process so I feel like examples like that are odd and probably why people get really riled up when discussion "cultural appropriation".
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Mar 28, 2015 01:09
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:It's just a quick example of some other way beyond something being symbolically important that it could be problematic. It can be insensitive because it's taking someone's language and turning it into a fashion statement (you probably wouldn't get the word 'water' tattooed on you in this case, would you?). It's not meant to be the worst case of appropriation, it's just the first obvious case that occurred to me. the chinese culture is going to crumble because of some tattoos are chinese people allowed to get tattoos in their native language without it being considered a fashion accessory?
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Mar 28, 2015 01:12
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Cole posted:what if the term 'redskins' meant a football team? you kind of take away the power of the word as a slur in that sense. That's a great point. Maybe if we rename espresso "liquid friend of the family" it will take away the power of the word as a slur.
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Mar 28, 2015 01:20
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SedanChair posted:That's a great point. Maybe if we rename espresso "liquid friend of the family" it will take away the power of the word as a slur. i'm glad you agree that constant use of a word robs it of its power. so we can stop talking about the redskins needing to change their name then?
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Mar 28, 2015 01:24
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Cole posted:i'm glad you agree that constant use of a word robs it of its power. so we can stop talking about the redskins needing to change their name then? Actually, the repeated use of a word despite the objections of the group it denigrates actually inculcates it with more, not less power.
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Mar 28, 2015 01:26
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Cole posted:the chinese culture is going to crumble because of some tattoos I also like how the use of an example where I claim "it can be insensitive" becomes "Chinese culture is going to crumble because of tattoos." Cole posted:i'm glad you agree that constant use of a word robs it of its power. so we can stop talking about the redskins needing to change their name then?
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Mar 28, 2015 01:26
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Cole posted:i'm glad you agree that constant use of a word robs it of its power. so we can stop talking about the redskins needing to change their name then? No but I've got an idea. Let's get a black NFL player to go to a press conference and say "I find it difficult to relate to white people." If he doesn't get fined, and doesn't get any death threats, the Redskins can keep their name. Deal?
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Mar 28, 2015 01:29
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SedanChair posted:No but I've got an idea. Let's get a black NFL player to go to a press conference and say "I find it difficult to relate to white people." If he doesn't get fined, and doesn't get any death threats, the Redskins can keep their name. Deal.
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Mar 28, 2015 02:22
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:It's just a quick example of some other way beyond something being symbolically important that it could be problematic. It can be insensitive because it's taking someone's language and turning it into a fashion statement (you probably wouldn't get the word 'water' tattooed on you in this case, would you?). It's not meant to be the worst case of appropriation, it's just the first obvious case that occurred to me. Symbolically important, are you kidding me. I don't think you could orientalize harder if you tried. Those mystical Asians with their inscrutable writing, how offended they must be when uncultured Americans get tattoos that say "Chicken Noodle Soup." It's writing just the same as writing in our culture. There's no higher meaning to Chinese characters anymore than there's a higher meaning to the letter A. The use of Chinese and other East Asian writing in American culture is just as dumb and offensive as the use of English in East Asian culture. Which is to say hella loving dumb and not offensive unless you're a tool. My co-worker who wore a shirt with the Virgin Mary surrounded by the words "gently caress this Earth" is just clueless, and I would roll my eyes at anyone who took offense to it in the same way I roll my eyes at most claims of "cultural appropriation."
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Mar 28, 2015 03:46
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Let us English posted:Symbolically important, are you kidding me. I don't think you could orientalize harder if you tried. Those mystical Asians with their inscrutable writing, how offended they must be when uncultured Americans get tattoos that say "Chicken Noodle Soup." It's writing just the same as writing in our culture. There's no higher meaning to Chinese characters anymore than there's a higher meaning to the letter A. Of course, I should have known that picking a deliberately and obviously mundane real-world example would cause outrage.
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Mar 28, 2015 05:01
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:I'm saying it's not symbolically important. That's what the first sentence says. It's not like calling someone a slur, and I really don't think it's a big deal (worthy of an eye roll, perhaps? I know someone who's expressed her discomfort about it, but it's not like she was really offended), but it's just an example of a way something could be appropriated or inappropriate even if it's not symbolically important. I mean, I can see why someone would be bothered by it, which is why I used it as an example. I think the issue is that "internet people" will and do argue in earnest that the kind of cultural exchanged you described is bad and shouldn't happen. I'm not saying you are making this point but you have to realize people do and in a twisty of (irony?) they become the face of "cultural appropriation" .
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Mar 28, 2015 05:07
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Lumius posted:I think the issue is that "internet people" will and do argue in earnest that the kind of cultural exchanged you described is bad and shouldn't happen. I'm not saying you are making this point but you have to realize people do and in a twisty of (irony?) they become the face of "cultural appropriation" . I don't know where you're getting this from his post. Would you mind explaining it to me?
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Mar 28, 2015 05:08
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There are people who want to contort white people with Chinese letter tattoos into a free speech issue or Political Correctness Gone Mad rather than just agree it's stupid and move on.
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Mar 28, 2015 05:11
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Effectronica posted:I don't know where you're getting this from his post. Would you mind explaining it to me? I mostly agree with Ghost of Reagan Past's viewpoint , I probably misread his last post so my last post is dumb and not coherent. I just don't like the example too much but I've voiced that so I'm done.
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Mar 28, 2015 05:37
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Cole posted:what if the term 'redskins' meant a football team? you kind of take away the power of the word as a slur in that sense. Someone hasn't watched the redskins play in the last few years.
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Mar 28, 2015 06:30
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Let us English posted:Symbolically important, are you kidding me. I don't think you could orientalize harder if you tried. Those mystical Asians with their inscrutable writing, how offended they must be when uncultured Americans get tattoos that say "Chicken Noodle Soup." It's writing just the same as writing in our culture. There's no higher meaning to Chinese characters anymore than there's a higher meaning to the letter A. Wait, what? The true orientalism is people getting Chinese characters tattooed on their arm cause it looks cool. No nuance or context . Also, telling people not to be offended about something is an rear end in a top hat thing to do and happens to minorities alot.
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Mar 28, 2015 08:26
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blackguy32 posted:Wait, what? The true orientalism is people getting Chinese characters tattooed on their arm cause it looks cool. No nuance or context . This sort of hyperbole is why people cannot take the left seriously. The true orientalism is getting a letter of the alphabet tatooed on your arm. Also white people with dreadlocks are literally oppression.
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Mar 28, 2015 08:32
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Typical Pubbie posted:This sort of hyperbole is why people cannot take the left seriously. The true orientalism is getting a letter of the alphabet tatooed on your arm. Also white people with dreadlocks are literally oppression. What do you mean true orientalism? Orientalism can encompass many things, even minute things.
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Mar 28, 2015 08:38
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Today we're dressing up our son as a Native American for Carnaval. That's it I'm out.
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Mar 28, 2015 09:06
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blackguy32 posted:What do you mean true orientalism? Orientalism can encompass many things, even minute things. In what way is a person fostering negative stereotypes about Asians by getting a tattoo of an inoffensive word or even something as simple as a letter? I mean, I won't deny that exoticism may be a motivating factor for some people with these tattoos, but it isn't essential. It is possible to just like something for what it is. I think calling a Chinese character tattoo "true orientalism" is endemic of the rhetorical malpractice which discredits the left, especially among the proletariat who do not have the time or desire to separate the ant poo poo from the pepper with regards to what is and is not orientalism.
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Mar 28, 2015 09:09
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"What is the formula for calculating if my Bruce Lee poster exceeds the appropriation threshold?"
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Mar 28, 2015 09:14
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blackguy32 posted:
In the context if my anecdote I am part of the minority in question. East Asians exoticise English in the same way westerners do Hanzi. Getting offended by either is stupid.
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Mar 28, 2015 10:11
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Echo Chamber posted:There are people who want to contort white people with Chinese letter tattoos into a free speech issue or Political Correctness Gone Mad rather than just agree it's stupid and move on. white people aping glorious was that so hard sorry for infringing on bogan culture suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Mar 28, 2015 |
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Mar 28, 2015 10:22
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
Typical Pubbie posted:In what way is a person fostering negative stereotypes about Asians by getting a tattoo of an inoffensive word or even something as simple as a letter? I mean, I won't deny that exoticism may be a motivating factor for some people with these tattoos, but it isn't essential. It is possible to just like something for what it is. Orientalism doesn't mean fostering negative stereotypes. I realize that this is "rhetorical malpractice" and that my snide aside about how your view of anti-racism as being about fighting this enormous blob with "Racism" written on the front is sadly accurate. Now, in theory, you could find someone who got a hanzi tattoo solely for aesthetic reasons rather than because of the fetishization of "Oriental" cultures making hanzi exotic, sure. Just like you could find someone who wears high heels solely because of aesthetic reasons rather than because heels are considered an important part of women's dress in our culture.
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Mar 28, 2015 14:43
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blowfish posted:white people aping glorious I get the impression that they're not even arguing about the thing supposedly in question but are instead displaying the tip of the iceberg of anxiety and resentment. "Making fun of clueless weaboos and sinophiles? It's gone too far. This is where I draw the line."
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Mar 28, 2015 14:49
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Effectronica posted:Orientalism doesn't mean fostering negative stereotypes. I realize that this is "rhetorical malpractice" and that my snide aside about how your view of anti-racism as being about fighting this enormous blob with "Racism" written on the front is sadly accurate. People are rightfully asking "is this really racist?" or "does this foster negative stereotypes?" because that's what they care about and they don't give two shits about academic subjects such as orientalism. That subject, btw, is much better discussed in a scholarly environment and not on the internet over dumb tattoos. edit: also, I don't find people finding Chinese/Japanese calligraphy beautiful as weird or dumb because that was the artist's intention. You people honestly need to relax a bit. fspades fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Mar 28, 2015 |
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Mar 28, 2015 15:32
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It's fine to exoticize and fetishize. It's a vital part of artistic production.
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Mar 28, 2015 15:48
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fspades posted:People are rightfully asking "is this really racist?" or "does this foster negative stereotypes?" because that's what they care about and they don't give two shits about academic subjects such as orientalism. That subject, btw, is much better discussed in a scholarly environment and not on the internet over dumb tattoos. No, I don't think that's what "people" care about, I believe that's what you care about, and are transplanting onto people generally. I dunno, don't think your objections are good enough without having to invoke a silent majority? But between the guy who believes that systemic discrimination emerges from the lumiferous ether and you regurgitating 101-level responses to the concept of systemic problems, this is a pretty diverse thread.
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Mar 28, 2015 16:09
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Effectronica posted:No, I don't think that's what "people" care about, I believe that's what you care about, and are transplanting onto people generally. I dunno, don't think your objections are good enough without having to invoke a silent majority? This thread has failed to bring a coherent and clear definition for cultural appropriation. Ultimately all you claim is "I know it, when I see it." It's very easy (and satisfying, I bet) to throw empty platitudes about cultural sensitivity and not being a dick, but if you can't even define a problem how are you expecting to solve it? In fact, the ample amount of snark and not-so-subtle accusations of racism going on in this thread helped to confirm my suspicion that cultural appropriation is a rhetorical beating stick to claim social superiority over others and feel good about it. fspades fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Mar 28, 2015 |
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Mar 28, 2015 16:19
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fspades posted:This thread has failed to bring a coherent and clear definition for cultural appropriation. Ultimately all you claim is "I know it, when I see it." It's very easy to throw empty platitudes about cultural sensitivity and not being a dick, but if you can't even define a problem how are you expecting to solve it? There have been multiple people posting varied definitions of cultural appropriation, none of which you have responded to as far as I can see beyond this post saying that none of them satisfy your criteria. Well, is there anything that would satisfy your criteria? I suspect that nothing will ever convince you, because you have already made up your mind on the issue. So for example, this statement from the UN Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples: quote:Indigenous peoples have the right to maintain, control, protect and develop their cultural heritage, traditional knowledge and traditional cultural expressions, as well as the manifestations of their sciences, technologies and cultures, including human and genetic resources, seeds, medicines, knowledge of the properties of fauna and flora, oral traditions, literatures, designs, sports and traditional games and visual and performing arts. They also have the right to maintain, control, protect and develop their intellectual property over such cultural heritage, traditional knowledge, and traditional cultural expressions. and this one from the Declaration of War Against Exploiters of Lakota Spirituality: quote:We especially urge all our Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota people to take action to prevent our own people from contributing to and enabling the abuse of our sacred ceremonies and spiritual practices by outsiders; for, as we all know, there are certain ones among our own people who are prostituting our spiritual ways for their own selfish gain, with no regard for the spiritual well-being of the people as a whole. 5. We assert a posture of zero-tolerance for any "white man's shaman" who rises from within our own communities to "authorize" the expropriation of our ceremonial ways by non-Indians; all such "plastic medicine men" are enemies of the Lakota, Dakota and Nakota people. will not serve as evidence that it exists outside of a bludgeon by teenagers from livejournal. Instead, the forecast shows a 60% chance of nitpicking, with a substantial likelihood that you'll do some quick googling and declare that since UN Declarations aren't international law, it doesn't matter. Maybe you'll insist that the Declaration of War is irrelevant because you know better than the Lakota what their priorities should be.
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Mar 28, 2015 16:28
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