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rear end in a top hat Businessman posted:Is dressing up as a geisha an attack on Japanese culture in general, or is it a specific attack on a norm we need not encourage? It's neither. Geisha are an aspect of Japanese culture that are actively promoted to foreigners, and held up as an example of Japanese soft power. Their relationship with feminism in Japan is long and very complicated. Western feminists should not dictate how feminism is expressed in Japan by protesting Geisha imagery. There is a long, unfortunate history of western women's rights activists lecturing and disparaging Japanese feminists because westerners don't like how Japanese choose to practice feminism in their own culture. Edit: None of this is to say that there aren't some serious issues regarding women's rights in Japan. Let us English fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Apr 1, 2015 |
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Apr 1, 2015 07:40
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Let us English posted:I don't think it's a wise strategy for the left to pretend that their crazies are only 15 year-olds on tumblr. To be sure, that's a great way to understand a lot of social justice BS on the internet, but there are plenty of idiotic think pieces writting for Salon, The Atlantic, or the The Guardian that rival anything seen on Tumblr. Would you care to post some of these pieces?
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Apr 1, 2015 08:56
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SedanChair posted:Would you care to post some of these pieces? http://www.everysingleMLKspeech.org/ Take that, liberals  I'm too real for you.But seriously is there some Conservative Talking Points newsletter on how to ignore minorities that everyone reads? IF minority says "Hey this bothers me" THEN go "pffft, Tumblr" and you don't have to think about them anymore! VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 09:50 on Apr 1, 2015 |
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Apr 1, 2015 09:36
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SedanChair posted:Would you care to post some of these pieces? Engagement rings are "down payment on a virgin vagina" http://www.salon.com/2013/10/08/engagement_rings_are_barbaric_partner/ (For the record, all the "villains" on Thomas and Friends are the dirty diesel engines. I'd like to think there was a good environmental message in there, but when the good engines pump out white smoke and the bad engines pump out black smoke – and they are all pumping out smoke – it's not hard to make the leap into the race territory.)"http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/22/thomas-the-tank-engine-children-parents#start-of-comments "
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Apr 1, 2015 10:07
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Let us English posted:Engagement rings are "down payment on a virgin vagina" http://www.salon.com/2013/10/08/engagement_rings_are_barbaric_partner/ If someone decides that the color of smoke in a children cartoon is a veiled insult against their race, who are you to tell them otherwise? Have you noticed that the coal they burn in their furnaces is always black? Take that, reactards.
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Apr 1, 2015 11:04
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SedanChair posted:In America? They didn't. Maybe my memory is going but when I was younger I remember it being a term used to tactfully tell someone to stop saying bigoted and or inappropriate poo poo for a long time before it became appropriated by the far right.
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Apr 1, 2015 12:16
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Jarmak posted:Maybe my memory is going but when I was younger I remember it being a term used to tactfully tell someone to stop saying bigoted and or inappropriate poo poo for a long time before it became appropriated by the far right. The term was used for decades before the Limbaugh poo poo, mostly in a positive context, that guy's just talking out his rear end.
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Apr 1, 2015 12:22
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Thug Lessons posted:It's difficult to talk about the ideas that define the term because there isn't any formal definition. Talk of cultural appropriation grew out of specific localized objections to things like frat boys in war bonnets and was then generalized into a loose conception that white people doing things associated with other cultures is bad, with the specifics of what defines this more or less entirely up to individual interpretation. It was probably inevitable that the loudest and most numerous voices were going to idiots because this isn't a great way to generate ideas, you can't just scale up from war bonnets to the entire world. Except that that's not really the case. First of all, there's a growing realization that white cultures are capable of being appropriated, which someone in-tune with internet leftism should be aware of, especially since it produces really annoying stuff. Second of all, this is fundamentally equivalent to saying that because idiot 15-year-olds consider air traffic controllers to be their class enemy since they make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, Marxian class analysis is a failure. The "white people doing things associated with other cultures is bad" has always, always been a misinterpretation of the concept ever since cultural appropriation got put into mainstream conversations by the American Indian Movement. Third of all, this seems like a particularly pissy way of complaining that democratic centralism is dead, to be blunt. Gantolandon posted:If someone decides that the color of smoke in a children cartoon is a veiled insult against their race, who are you to tell them otherwise? Have you noticed that the coal they burn in their furnaces is always black? Take that, reactards. I sure am glad that we have a white communist here to tell people that "black is beautiful" was actual insanity. Effectronica fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Apr 1, 2015 |
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Apr 1, 2015 12:55
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I guess Johnny Cash was being racist when he decided to be the Man in Black.
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Apr 1, 2015 13:09
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Effectronica posted:Except that that's not really the case. First of all, there's a growing realization that white cultures are capable of being appropriated, which someone in-tune with internet leftism should be aware of, especially since it produces really annoying stuff. As a mixed race asian-white (I refuse to use the stupid American-only descriptor of "caucasian" for "white") wholly removed from mysterious oriental culture and just as wholly immersed in the Culture of The West I can proudly say I don't give a poo poo about More seriously, the problem with stupid internet leftism is that 15 year old idiots who only know to shout "check your privilege" at anything they don't like after having read suitably outraged blog posts will eventually grow up to be maladjusted adults in positions of responsibility who still have no clue what to do in the real world when shouting "check your privilege" does not work. suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Apr 1, 2015 |
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Apr 1, 2015 13:17
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
blowfish posted:As a mixed race asian-white (I refuse to use the stupid American-only descriptor of "caucasian" for "white") wholly removed from mysterious oriental culture and just as wholly immersed in the Culture of The West I can proudly say I don't give a poo poo about Well, personally, I'm glad that you've decided to boldly declare for nihilism, like so many other people in the USA. It will make it so much easier for me to convince my fellow Americans that blood sacrifices and deification of the Presidency are 10,000-year-old American traditions.
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Apr 1, 2015 13:20
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Effectronica posted:Well, personally, I'm glad that you've decided to boldly declare for nihilism, like so many other people in the USA. It will make it so much easier for me to convince my fellow Americans that blood sacrifices and deification of the Presidency are 10,000-year-old American traditions. good because people are stupid, knock yourself out.
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Apr 1, 2015 13:21
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Effectronica posted:Well, personally, I'm glad that you've decided to boldly declare for nihilism, like so many other people in the USA. It will make it so much easier for me to convince my fellow Americans that blood sacrifices and deification of the Presidency are 10,000-year-old American traditions. I am not an American't (  ), so I was in fact appropriating the battle cry for Full Nihilism, Now!
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Apr 1, 2015 13:21
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blowfish posted:More seriously, the problem with stupid internet leftism is that 15 year old idiots who only know to shout "check your privilege" at anything they don't like after having read suitably outraged blog posts will eventually grow up to be maladjusted adults in positions of responsibility who still have no clue what to do in the real world when shouting "check your privilege" does not work. Fifteen year olds have always had foolish political opinions since ever, why is this go-round the herald of the apocalypse?
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Apr 1, 2015 13:23
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It's frankly more than a little disturbing to see the complete collapse of culture in this way. No wonder so many people feel that appropriation is inevitable and necessary, when they think that their mother culture is meaningless and everything in it is pure poo poo. It's just the more cynical version of seeing a plastic shaman or believing in the healing power of crystals. This is frankly far more of a concern for leftism than children saying dumb things on social media.
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Apr 1, 2015 13:25
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Effectronica posted:Except that that's not really the case. First of all, there's a growing realization that white cultures are capable of being appropriated, which someone in-tune with internet leftism should be aware of, especially since it produces really annoying stuff. Second of all, this is fundamentally equivalent to saying that because idiot 15-year-olds consider air traffic controllers to be their class enemy since they make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, Marxian class analysis is a failure. The "white people doing things associated with other cultures is bad" has always, always been a misinterpretation of the concept ever since cultural appropriation got put into mainstream conversations by the American Indian Movement. You're missing the point. The development of cultural appropriation as a concept was motivated by very specific, local events: American Indian objections to white people in war bonnets, Afro-Caribbean/Rastifarian objection to white dreadlocks as a fashion statement, etc., along with stuff that wasn't really politics per se at all. The problem is that those events are deeply rooted in their specific context rather than an underlying social ill that can be universally generalized and unequivocally condemned. There is no legitimate framework that you can lay down where certain behaviors are always harmful cultural appropriation rather than positive cultural exchange because context is everything. So it's really no surprise that the term is "misused" so frequently because it's just a totally bunk way of understanding societal conflict Also, quote:Third of all, this seems like a particularly pissy way of complaining that democratic centralism is dead, to be blunt.
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Apr 1, 2015 13:26
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VitalSigns posted:Fifteen year olds have always had foolish political opinions since ever, why is this go-round the herald of the apocalypse? Because the internet is full of echo chambers for idiots to pat each other on the back instead of facing reality or something. Surely this generation of idiots will be worse than every other generation decried as idiots since the dawn of time 
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Apr 1, 2015 13:26
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Effectronica posted:It's frankly more than a little disturbing to see the complete collapse of culture in this way. No wonder so many people feel that appropriation is inevitable and necessary, when they think that their mother culture is meaningless and everything in it is pure poo poo. It's just the more cynical version of seeing a plastic shaman or believing in the healing power of crystals. This is frankly far more of a concern for leftism than children saying dumb things on social media. american culture is trash, same as most of the other ones
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Apr 1, 2015 13:28
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take the best bits of every culture, mix, discard the rest, maaaan
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Apr 1, 2015 13:31
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Thug Lessons posted:You're missing the point. The development of cultural appropriation as a concept was motivated by very specific, local events: American Indian objections to white people in war bonnets, Afro-Caribbean/Rastifarian objection to white dreadlocks as a fashion statement, etc., along with stuff that wasn't really politics per se at all. The problem is that those events are deeply rooted in their specific context rather than an underlying social ill that can be universally generalized and unequivocally condemned. There is legitimate framework that you can lay down where certain behaviors are always harmful cultural appropriation rather than positive cultural exchange because context is everything. So it's really no surprise that the term is "misused" so frequently because it's just a totally bunk way of understanding societal conflict I think you meant to say "no legitimate framework" here, and you're misusing "cultural exchange" as well. But in any case, this is now akin to saying that since any given economic situation is unique, you can't generalize from their context-ridden situations to a theory that works overall, and that's why socialism is a fraudulent way of understanding economics. It's also basically rejecting scientific reasoning, which consists of an induction-deduction cycle that no one has really eliminated or transformed away from relying on induction. Not that that really matters, but it is funny that you're doing it.
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Apr 1, 2015 13:31
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Armyman25 posted:I guess Johnny Cash was being racist when he decided to be the Man in Black. Pretty sure he was singing about his (western) clothing
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Apr 1, 2015 13:34
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Effectronica posted:I think you meant to say "no legitimate framework" here, and you're misusing "cultural exchange" as well. But in any case, this is now akin to saying that since any given economic situation is unique, you can't generalize from their context-ridden situations to a theory that works overall, and that's why socialism is a fraudulent way of understanding economics. It's also basically rejecting scientific reasoning, which consists of an induction-deduction cycle that no one has really eliminated or transformed away from relying on induction. Not that that really matters, but it is funny that you're doing it. No, that is not how it works. Wearing a ghutrah is not the same thing as wearing a war bonnet because they have their own specific cultural contexts both in their home cultures and abroad, and they cannot be lumped together under a generalized universally-defined label of cultural appropriation that is always bad. This doesn't undermine scientific reasoning, it's just not being a lazy reductionist.
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Apr 1, 2015 13:46
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Effectronica posted:It's frankly more than a little disturbing to see the complete collapse of culture in this way. No wonder so many people feel that appropriation is inevitable and necessary, when they think that their mother culture is meaningless and everything in it is pure poo poo. It's just the more cynical version of seeing a plastic shaman or believing in the healing power of crystals. This is frankly far more of a concern for leftism than children saying dumb things on social media. Thankfully there are enlightened leftists ready to lecture these ignorant savages about the importance of their native culture.
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Apr 1, 2015 13:46
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Thug Lessons posted:No, that is not how it works. Wearing a ghutrah is not the same thing as wearing a war bonnet because they have their own specific cultural contexts both in their home cultures and abroad, and they cannot be lumped together under a generalized universally-defined label of cultural appropriation that is always bad. This doesn't undermine scientific reasoning, it's just not being a lazy reductionist. Okay. So what do you want to call cultural interactions that involve taking something from another culture and eliminating or attempting to eliminate the original practice or concept or meaning? Do these just not exist, and eg the Lakota are wrong in lumping together exploitation of their spirituality into a single thing despite it involving different practices with different cultural contexts both in the home culture and the adopting culture? Shall we just say that there is no way to understand cultural interactions? Gantolandon posted:Thankfully there are enlightened leftists ready to lecture these ignorant savages about the importance of their native culture. Yes, Gantolandon, white people are ignorant savages. Finally, you have come around to that basic revelation.
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Apr 1, 2015 13:54
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Effectronica posted:Yes, Gantolandon, white people are ignorant savages. Finally, you have come around to that basic revelation. the one way you could fix the world would be to kill all the white people
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Apr 1, 2015 13:57
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If you say that capitalism alienates workers and instills false consciousnesses into all levels of society, that's acceptable. If you say that part of this alienation involves the devastation of communities and social contexts outside of work, that's acceptable. If you say that these communities and contexts involve culture and history, that's imperialism. If you say that this alienation leads more and more people to seek meaning and spirituality in cultures other than their own, that's imperialism.
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Apr 1, 2015 13:59
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Effectronica posted:Okay. So what do you want to call cultural interactions that involve taking something from another culture and eliminating or attempting to eliminate the original practice or concept or meaning? Do these just not exist, and eg the Lakota are wrong in lumping together exploitation of their spirituality into a single thing despite it involving different practices with different cultural contexts both in the home culture and the adopting culture? Shall we just say that there is no way to understand cultural interactions? This is not a question of semantics. The problem is, once again, that specific local struggles have been very haphazardly generalized into a supposedly universal category with as many definitions as there are speakers. This is a bad analytical framework.
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Apr 1, 2015 14:01
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Thug Lessons posted:This is not a question of semantics. The problem is, once again, that specific local struggles have been very haphazardly generalized into a supposedly universal category with as many definitions as there are speakers. This is a bad analytical framework. This is exactly a question of semantics now. What do you want to call these interactions? Are we going to lump them together with imposition on cultures or extermination of cultures? Does Carlos Castaneda constitute an act of genocide? Should we avoid using shorthand and spell out why each and every such interaction is bad? How is this any different from using words like racism or sexism?
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Apr 1, 2015 14:04
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Let us English posted:Engagement rings are "down payment on a virgin vagina" http://www.salon.com/2013/10/08/engagement_rings_are_barbaric_partner/ I completely agree with this, engagement rings are a legacy of the patriarchy. Do you have a complaint about the piece or is all feminism self-evidently absurd to you? quote:(For the record, all the "villains" on Thomas and Friends are the dirty diesel engines. I'd like to think there was a good environmental message in there, but when the good engines pump out white smoke and the bad engines pump out black smoke – and they are all pumping out smoke – it's not hard to make the leap into the race territory.)"http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/22/thomas-the-tank-engine-children-parents#start-of-comments " We should always be aware when black is used to mean bad and white is used to mean good. Are you saying we shouldn't? Jarmak posted:Maybe my memory is going but when I was younger I remember it being a term used to tactfully tell someone to stop saying bigoted and or inappropriate poo poo for a long time before it became appropriated by the far right. Your memory is going, it was always used in an eye-rolling sense. If you couldn't tell, well that's why they came up with it. Thug Lessons posted:The term was used for decades before the Limbaugh poo poo, mostly in a positive context, that guy's just talking out his rear end. Prove it.
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Apr 1, 2015 14:12
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Thug Lessons posted:This is not a question of semantics. The problem is, once again, that specific local struggles have been very haphazardly generalized into a supposedly universal category with as many definitions as there are speakers. This is a bad analytical framework. Yeah precisely. The term actually obfuscates what's hosed up about these situations and replaces it with culture fetishization.
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Apr 1, 2015 14:14
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duck monster posted:Or maybe I just think that because I love 70s ska and detest 90s ska. The great majority of charges of cultural appropriation come down to this: a covert attempt to moralize about aesthetics.
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Apr 1, 2015 14:17
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Effectronica posted:This is exactly a question of semantics now. What do you want to call these interactions? Are we going to lump them together with imposition on cultures or extermination of cultures? Does Carlos Castaneda constitute an act of genocide? Should we avoid using shorthand and spell out why each and every such interaction is bad? How is this any different from using words like racism or sexism? We don't really need a term because it's sufficient to talk about the specific examples. When you do talk about it with a general term it implies a larger generalized framework, and when you refer to it as cultural appropriation it's all the worse because of the baggage that comes with that term. But honestly if you're only concerned with the semantics I don't see a reason to argue about it.
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Apr 1, 2015 14:21
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SedanChair posted:Prove it. How about instead of me proving it you type "political correctness origin" into google or wikipedia and look at all the examples. I'm 90% sure you've already done this and are just waiting for me to post links so you can try and tediously poke holes in them so let's save each other some time.
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Apr 1, 2015 14:23
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Exclamation Marx posted:Pretty sure he was singing about his (western) clothing I was making a joke about the idea that every use of the color black as a negative is racist. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t51MHUENlAQ
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Apr 1, 2015 14:24
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Thug Lessons posted:How about instead of me proving it you type "political correctness origin" into google or wikipedia and look at all the examples. I'm 90% sure you've already done this and are just waiting for me to post links so you can try and tediously poke holes in them so let's save each other some time. And I'm pretty sure you've done it as well, have seen that no, it wasn't used like that, and are trying to cover how you've overextended yourself with snark. It was always used in this country to present racial and gender equality as being absurd, vaguely Orwellian or at least something that is tedious to keep up with.
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Apr 1, 2015 14:26
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WoodrowSkillson posted:the one way you could fix the world would be to kill all the white people The sad thing is, there are people on these forums who sincerely believe this.
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Apr 1, 2015 14:31
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Thug Lessons posted:We don't really need a term because it's sufficient to talk about the specific examples. When you do talk about it with a general term it implies a larger generalized framework, and when you refer to it as cultural appropriation it's all the worse because of the baggage that comes with that term. But honestly if you're only concerned with the semantics I don't see a reason to argue about it. How does this differ from racism or sexism as concepts? Seems like moralizing over aesthetics.
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Apr 1, 2015 14:37
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-Troika- posted:The sad thing is, there are people on these forums who sincerely believe this. Thankfully, we have your continued existence to make us laugh.
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Apr 1, 2015 14:39
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dogcrash truther posted:Yeah precisely. The term actually obfuscates what's hosed up about these situations and replaces it with culture fetishization. Yes. The putative aim here is to create a more just system of cultural exchange and I can't think of a worse way to do that than to both misidentify the problem while also analytically conjuring new ones where none existed before.
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Apr 1, 2015 14:39
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Thug Lessons posted:Yes. The putative aim here is to create a more just system of cultural exchange and I can't think of a worse way to do that than to both misidentify the problem while also analytically conjuring new ones where none existed before. Stop misusing the phrase "cultural exchange".
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Apr 1, 2015 14:42
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