OwlFancier posted:It is a bad thing in so much as it causes distress to people, but the loss of the original meaning itself is neither good nor bad, as information has no inherent value. No, the withdrawal from society is the bad thing, illiterate. But you are coming out in favor of the destruction of knowledge as a morally neutral act. Ah. You're also making sneering remarks about how it's so easy to reject enculturation. It's clear you're an idiot, and that this was a waste of time.
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Apr 12, 2015 16:35
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Knowledge has value as long as humans have need of it, if we cease to have need of it, it no longer has value, same with anything. Value is a human idea, and thus is entirely decided by us. A thing has value so long as we assign value to it, so if we cease to, it stops having it. Unless you believe in absolute value for some reason I'm not sure how you can hold otherwise. If you do believe in absolute value then I would imagine it might be difficult for us to agree on things.
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Apr 12, 2015 16:38
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OwlFancier posted:Knowledge has value as long as humans have need of it, if we cease to have need of it, it no longer has value, same with anything. Value is a human idea, and thus is entirely decided by us. A thing has value so long as we assign value to it, so if we cease to, it stops having it. OwlFancier posted:It is a bad thing in so much as it causes distress to people, but the loss of the original meaning itself is neither good nor bad, as information has no inherent value. So are you gonna go for distinguishing between information and knowledge, or are you gonna go for something more original, and will you address my point either way? Hell, are you willing to defend the idea that you can shake off the practice of the culture you live in easily?
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Apr 12, 2015 16:40
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Effectronica posted:So are you gonna go for distinguishing between information and knowledge, or are you gonna go for something more original, and will you address my point either way? I'm using information and knowledge interchangeably, and what's the point you'd like me to address? I can and do certainly deviate from the prevailing culture of my home in the ways I feel are necessary. Those ways I don't feel are necessary, obviously don't cause me any distress, so I haven't ever tried? Is there a need for me to deviate simply for the sake of it?
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Apr 12, 2015 16:50
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OwlFancier posted:I'm using information and knowledge interchangeably, and what's the point you'd like me to address? I said that the thing I was calling bad was the withdrawal from the broader society. Hmm, interesting, but let us suppose that someone wished to deviate from American cultural norms by stealing. How well would they be able to do so, given sufficient self-centeredness? I guess you're going to say that this would never be necessary in order to avoid dealing with the ideas you're presenting.
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Apr 12, 2015 16:54
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Effectronica posted:I said that the thing I was calling bad was the withdrawal from the broader society. I would argue that withdrawal from society should not be necessary, as you don't need to preserve the social meaning of your ideas in order to practice them, and you are under no obligation to preserve the ideas themselves as information lacks inherent value. Theft would be rather difficult to practice successfully, however self centered you might be, however I would also venture that "It's against my cultural beliefs to not steal things." should not be a valid form of defence if you are being prosecuted for theft?
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Apr 12, 2015 16:58
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OwlFancier posted:I would argue that withdrawal from society should not be necessary, as you don't need to preserve the social meaning of your ideas in order to practice them, and you are under no obligation to preserve the ideas themselves as information lacks inherent value. Who says it's necessary? Probably someone who thinks that a cultural practice, by definition social, is something that isn't defined by its shared meaning. Also, using "inherent value" in that sense implies that there are things with inherent value, which you just denied. By the by, do you believe that diversity is a good thing? Are you really an idiot? The reason we have laws against theft is because it is considered culturally unacceptable (this does not imply that all laws are for such purposes, but it is the case for theft). Therefore, you cannot defy this cultural belief because the mechanisms to punish deviance are harsh, and you have accepted this idea that theft is unacceptable so deeply that you think it's somehow distinct from culture to criminalize theft. In other words, your ability to actually defy the culture you were raised in is pretty goddamn limited. Not that all people are so limited, but you understand that a great deal of culture is taught at a level below the conscious one, right? Especially the important stuff.
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Apr 12, 2015 17:04
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Diversity isn't good or bad, it's just a thing. A thing isn't better or worse if it's made up of different parts rather than homogenous ones, unless you're talking from an engineering perspective or something. Morally it's neutral? It's true that by and large the culture I live in disapproves of theft and I don't see a reason to deviate from that for the most part. It is better not to steal if you can avoid it. It is also good to make concessions for need when judging whether or not someone is right to steal. I would argue it is better to steal than starve, for example. I don't know what the consensus would be culturally on that point. Again, do I have an imperative to deviate from my cultural background simply because I can? It does share some ideas I think have value, so I would find it a little silly to disagree with things that seem manifestly beneficial just to be different?
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Apr 12, 2015 17:10
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OwlFancier posted:Diversity isn't good or bad, it's just a thing. A thing isn't better or worse if it's made up of different parts rather than homogenous ones, unless you're talking from an engineering perspective or something. Morally it's neutral? Okay, why don't you answer the other question in that paragraph, which was the main point. Jesus Christ. We are talking about people's ability to deviate from their culture. You are making it very clear that despite your declarations, you are not able to reject your culture arbitrarily, since you believe that the norms of your culture have no influence on why you think stealing is wrong. Maybe you should look at that, and your convenient desire to only deviate in socially acceptable ways, and consider that you, and indeed everyone, might not be so free of external influence as you'd prefer.
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Apr 12, 2015 17:15
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Effectronica, this is what happens when you act like a jackass, you left with nothing but yourself and the autists.
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Apr 12, 2015 17:16
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Effectronica posted:Okay, why don't you answer the other question in that paragraph, which was the main point. I dunno, who does say it's necessary? I'm arguing that it isn't necessary, I don't entirely follow what you're asking. I'm not free of external influence, because obviously I'm exposed to ideas from outside all the time, nothing new under the sun and all that. Chances are if an idea is in my head it's because someone has already thought of it and I heard about it somewhere, because there's a lot of ideas about like that. But I'm still entirely capable of judging whether or not I agree with any given idea. Are you suggesting that I should be capable of just making arbitrary, nonsensical decisions for... some reason? I mean I guess I could but I'm not going to, why would I do that? I'm really having trouble following what you're arguing or what it is supposed to lead onto.
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Apr 12, 2015 17:19
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OwlFancier posted:I dunno, who does say it's necessary? I'm arguing that it isn't necessary, I don't entirely follow what you're asking. Saying that it isn't necessary doesn't mean that people won't do it, because we have examples of people who, feeling besieged by the primary culture, withdraw from it as much as possible. If you were really able to free yourself completely from cultural norms, you would be able to reject everything in the culture completely, and if you were really able to do it as easily as you suggest, you could do it at the blink of an eye. Since you are unable to, unwilling to completely distance yourself, you are clearly bound by the cultural norms you grew up in. Probably everyone is, and only by adopting a new set of social norms can they really be subsumed. This is not to say that being able to completely reject the idea that murder is bad at the top of a hat is a good thing, but that is what you were suggesting is easy for anyone to do, and so the cultural environment is not a major influence because you can easily reject everything that's taught.
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Apr 12, 2015 17:28
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Effectronica posted:Saying that it isn't necessary doesn't mean that people won't do it, because we have examples of people who, feeling besieged by the primary culture, withdraw from it as much as possible. I'm arguing that it is not necessary to reject a culture unless it causes you distress to conform to it, if it does do that, you should find it comparably easy to reject it. Like I said, I reject the parts of my culture I don't think are good things, I retain the parts that are. Unless you think it is important to reject things arbitrarily, and I don't understand why you would think that, this should satisfy you? And yes I daresay some people would sooner withdraw than develop an internal identity, generally I would suggest that that's what psychologists are for, as it sounds like something they would be able to help with.
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Apr 12, 2015 17:34
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OwlFancier posted:I'm arguing that it is not necessary to reject a culture unless it causes you distress to conform to it, if it does do that, you should find it comparably easy to reject it. Like I said, I reject the parts of my culture I don't think are good things, I retain the parts that are. Unless you think it is important to reject things arbitrarily, and I don't understand why you would think that, this should satisfy you? Okay, well, since you're unwilling to admit that people's environment has a major influence on their identity even given it being shown to you that a large part of your self is determined by the culture you grew up in, and anyone that is influenced by the culture around them is insane/mentally undeveloped, I guess you're basically a loving idiot then. Like, seriously, what things have you rejected from your culture that you would face meaningful consequences for? Because you're not really rejecting these things, you're deviating within acceptable limits.
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Apr 12, 2015 17:39
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Effectronica posted:Okay, well, since you're unwilling to admit that people's environment has a major influence on their identity even given it being shown to you that a large part of your self is determined by the culture you grew up in, and anyone that is influenced by the culture around them is insane/mentally undeveloped, I guess you're basically a loving idiot then. Like, seriously, what things have you rejected from your culture that you would face meaningful consequences for? Because you're not really rejecting these things, you're deviating within acceptable limits. Probably not many things, given that I don't really want to kill, rape, or steal from people. What sort of things are you suggesting should be permitted deviations that currently aren't?
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Apr 12, 2015 17:41
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OwlFancier posted:Probably not many things, given that I don't really want to kill, rape, or steal from people. I'm not suggesting anything should be a permitted deviation one way or another, you loving idiot. I'm saying that the main reason you think things are wrong or right is because you have been raised in a culture that considers these things wrong or right, and your reasoning about morality will tend to operate in such a way as to justify why these things are wrong or right.
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Apr 12, 2015 17:44
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Effectronica posted:I'm not suggesting anything should be a permitted deviation one way or another, you loving idiot. I'm saying that the main reason you think things are wrong or right is because you have been raised in a culture that considers these things wrong or right, and your reasoning about morality will tend to operate in such a way as to justify why these things are wrong or right. Well, in the sense that I was raised in a culture that had access to the philosophy of utilitarianism which is what I use for that sort of decision making, yes. You'll have to explain why that is important however, I don't really dispute it.
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Apr 12, 2015 17:59
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Cultural Approriation is a really good thing
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Apr 12, 2015 18:03
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Topic Locked
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Apr 12, 2015 18:05
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OwlFancier posted:Well, in the sense that I was raised in a culture that had access to the philosophy of utilitarianism which is what I use for that sort of decision making, yes. You'll have to explain why that is important however, I don't really dispute it. So you had no idea whether something was good or bad until you discovered utilitarianism. You must have been a real poo poo as a child.
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Apr 12, 2015 18:10
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Now, I admit that I've been something of a hypocrite, saying that diversity is good and the extermination of cultures bad, when I personally believe that some cultures should be exterminated. Well, one. Gamers. I believe that any means, up to and including mandatory AIDS injections, should be used to wipe the gamer scum from the face of this planet.
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Apr 12, 2015 18:22
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Effectronica posted:So you had no idea whether something was good or bad until you discovered utilitarianism. You must have been a real poo poo as a child. No, I did what I was told (sometimes) as a child, when I became an adult I behaved responsibly and did what was right as best I could, that isn't difficult to understand. Yeah it'd be no great loss if gamers weren't a thing. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Apr 12, 2015 |
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Apr 12, 2015 18:24
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OwlFancier posted:No, I did what I was told (sometimes) as a child, when I became an adult I behaved responsibly and did what was right as best I could, that isn't difficult to understand. That doesn't contradict anything I said. You said that you only developed moral understanding when you learned what utilitarianism was, which meant that you had no idea whether something was right or wrong before then, and you aren't contradicting that. Congratulations on being too stupid to be encultured. Maybe you can get into some sociological hall of fame.
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Apr 12, 2015 18:26
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Effectronica posted:That doesn't contradict anything I said. You said that you only developed moral understanding when you learned what utilitarianism was, which meant that you had no idea whether something was right or wrong before then, and you aren't contradicting that. Congratulations on being too stupid to be encultured. Maybe you can get into some sociological hall of fame. *shrug* utilitarianism was what always made sense to me, I actually learned what it was called later than I learned how to do it, though I imagine the ideas are somewhat present in the general culture where I live. Maybe I did something else before that but it was a long time ago so I honestly don't remember. But yeah, before I was an adult I was a dumb kid, being able to decide for yourself what right and wrong is is how I would define adulthood, actually, so that's somewhat tautological.
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Apr 12, 2015 18:29
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OwlFancier posted:*shrug* utilitarianism was what always made sense to me, I actually learned what it was called later than I learned how to do it, though I imagine the ideas are somewhat present in the general culture where I live. But yeah, before I was an adult I was a dumb kid, being able to decide for yourself what right and wrong is is how I would define adulthood, actually, so that's somewhat tautological. Ah, the littlest utilitarian. Seriously, you're probably misremembering because most kids get a very clear picture of what's right and wrong fairly quickly, even if they don't know the reasoning why.
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Apr 12, 2015 18:30
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Effectronica posted:Ah, the littlest utilitarian. Seriously, you're probably misremembering because most kids get a very clear picture of what's right and wrong fairly quickly, even if they don't know the reasoning why. Quite possibly, most of my life before 16 is very hazy. Utilitarianism is what I use nowadays, however.
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Apr 12, 2015 18:34
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I heard once that all music is copied, every time a new piece of music is created, the artist has to start from somewhere, there is no single tune that is truly unique and independent in creation. This is very easily mirrored in religion and, well culture. How do you create a new religion, how do you create a new facet of your culture? You dont, you copy it from someone else because it already works. The constant copying/altering/and dismissal of parts of culture are just the nature form of cultural evolution. Globalization has just made it one gigantic spawning pool that allows this process to happen very quickly. Yes, a white man wearing a Redskins mascot costume is racist. What of Romans getting Egyptian burials because they thought it was cool new thing. It happens, and it doesnt matter, the internet has allowed people who arent even involved with said cultural exchanges to get upset, much like tumblr.txt
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Apr 12, 2015 19:42
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blowfish posted:effectronica, serious question This, now, is what you've taken away from all this. This is your question. At this point it seems apparent to me that a certain type of white lived experience is literally a developmental disability. Or brain damage; it's like one of Oliver Sacks' patients who couldn't see the right side of their dinner plate. There are some things you'll never see.
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Apr 12, 2015 19:48
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SedanChair posted:This, now, is what you've taken away from all this. This is your question. At this point it seems apparent to me that a certain type of white lived experience is literally a developmental disability. Or brain damage; it's like one of Oliver Sacks' patients who couldn't see the right side of their dinner plate. There are some things you'll never see. i am not technically white hth (you should know that) merely a mixed race traitor who sees no point in making a big deal of that (  he said jehova  )also feel free to actually make a point instead of stupidly flailing about and shouting suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Apr 12, 2015 |
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Apr 12, 2015 19:48
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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White Lived Experience Type A
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Apr 12, 2015 19:50
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blowfish posted:i am not technically white hth (you should know that) I can measure the density of the atmosphere by the predicted speed of your response, which I guessed in advance with 100% accuracy including the smilies and your spelling of the name of God.
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Apr 12, 2015 19:51
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SedanChair posted:I can measure the density of the atmosphere by the predicted speed of your response, which I guessed in advance with 100% accuracy including the smilies and your spelling of the name of God. to reply or not to reply, that is the question now could you please explain how whites are retarded dear mr internet not-white person so there is an actual point to
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Apr 12, 2015 19:55
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blowfish posted:to reply or not to reply, that is the question No, I am now reconciled to the fact that I cannot explain how certain people experience whiteness in such a way that they literally cannot perceive arguments being made.
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Apr 12, 2015 19:58
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ok thanks for admitting you are a dumb who is unable to actually make an argument (protip: it should be concise, consistent, and not complete crap) in addition please consider whether your point is anything other than "well this is a problem if you ignore the fact that it's only a problem in cases that are already problematic because of other reasons"
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Apr 12, 2015 20:01
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reminder that sedanchair is white
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Apr 12, 2015 20:02
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blowfish posted:ok thanks for admitting you are a dumb who is unable to actually make an argument (protip: it should be concise, consistent, and not complete crap) No, the argument has been made any number of times, both concisely and at length. You can't see it. You are lost.
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Apr 12, 2015 20:03
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SedanChair posted:No, the argument has been made any number of times, both concisely and at length. You can't see it. You are lost. surely you can link to a post making it in that case sorry i jumped in late and had better things to do than reading 40 pages of verbal diarrhea ("better things" meaning the production of more of the same) Morkyz posted:reminder that sedanchair is white it's more fun if you're subtle about it
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Apr 12, 2015 20:07
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blowfish posted:it's more fun if you're subtle about it It's About Fun
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Apr 12, 2015 20:08
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blowfish posted:it's more fun if you're subtle about it it's just that he has no shame about it, like, at all i was hoping it would be like that thing everyone knows that he's always praying no one will bring up but it like he just doesn't even care
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Apr 12, 2015 20:09
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SedanChair posted:It's About Fun yes how dare people have fun on the something awful dot com internet comedy forum, the place where serious discussion steers our ship of state now do you have a point to
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Apr 12, 2015 20:10
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