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Obdicut posted:How about you read the textbook I recommended? Then you'll know more stuff than you do know, and that'd be cool, don't you think? 'cuz from what you've said in this thread, you've got mile-wide gaps in your understanding of US history and politics. Problem is, once you learn how hosed up the US has been to Native Americans from the getgo you begin to advocate for the dismantling of the US.
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Apr 14, 2015 21:43
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enraged_camel posted:Really? Outside of a few specific cases, I find this difficult to believe. There's an excellent documentary on this called "Fallout New Vegas".
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Apr 14, 2015 21:49
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Locke Dunnegan posted:This thread is way more tense than it was meant to be. Keeps things exciting. Look you seem like someone who is genuinely interested in a good discussion, but I think D&D is really the wrong place for this type of debate. I think the reason why people end up being hostile to you comes down to the fact that your OP comes across as libertarian/state's right soapboxing, I know that's not your intent, but people are pretty hostile to that. There are a lot of other forums which are more welcoming and friendly, but the debate culture in D&D can be pretty horrible sometime and you get people who are basically just masturbating over how smart they think they are. I totally get what you are saying about how things are inexplicably and unnecessarily tense, but that is what the general culture on this board is like. Typo fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 21:54
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Nintendo Kid posted:I don't understand what you think we need from the British system then. Parliamentary systems don't really work correctly when you have FPTP, and once you replace FPTP a presidential republic works just fine. Honestly both the Canadian and British systems are super broken, and it's lunacy to demand them in whole or in part. FPTP doesn't get rid of the amount of veto power that's available to congress, the courts, the executive over each other, and state governments over the federal government (and vice-versa) or the tendency to either screw around with federal agencies for political purposes or neuter them altogether. Those are built into the US system on a level more fundamental than FPTP as part of checks and balances. It would be a move in the right direction though.
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Apr 14, 2015 22:00
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Typo posted:Look you seem like someone who is genuinely interested in a good discussion, but I think D&D is really the wrong place for this type of debate. I think the problem is more that his OP unintentionally came off smelling strongly of being another libertarian playing the "just asking questions" game, which is a dance we've danced a few too many times for many to remain politely skeptical. That he appears not to actually be one of those jerks is why I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt and actually engage a bit, but it's rather hard to debate when his premises are quite broad and argument poorly defined, as well as significantly lacking historical underpinnings in some areas. Locke, I think you might be better suited to actually nailing down something more discreet and debatable from your larger "America's got me bummed out and I've concerns about federalism and the size of national government in general." Like, if you want to talk about military budget bloat and how that might be address, something specific like the politics of procurement or America's sacralization/fetishization of military service and gun wankery might get you something better. Also, though you didn't deserve all of the snark directed at you, we do toss insults around while arguing about things here, and getting offended at it just makes you come off as thin-skinned.
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Apr 14, 2015 22:01
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Typo posted:FPTP doesn't get rid of the amount of veto power that's available to congress, the courts, the executive over each other, and state governments over the federal government (and vice-versa) or the tendency to either screw around with federal agencies for political purposes or neuter them altogether. Those are built into the US system on a level more fundamental than FPTP as part of checks and balances. It would be a move in the right direction though. Those are all very good things to have. I don't understand why you'd want to get rid of them. Removing them would only let things get screwed over more.
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Apr 14, 2015 22:13
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Locke Dunnegan posted:I may have too much faith in the American public, but I don't buy in to the idea that the states would turn on each other if they were independent. Not everyone's a power hungry politician. If my home state was attempting to annex Arkansas I sincerely doubt there would be a majority supporting it. All of the southern states around Texas would be immediately invaded and taken over by Texas. Repeat this for ever single powerful/highly populated state and the surrounding areas. Quite literally nobody gives a poo poo in America about killing people in war and if you think that translates into peaceful coexistence of free states with each other your an idiot. And again; what would happen to the U.S. Military and our thousands of nuclear weapons?
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Apr 14, 2015 22:15
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Venom Snake posted:And again; what would happen to the U.S. Military and our thousands of nuclear weapons? A fitting end to it all. 
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Apr 14, 2015 22:18
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:A fitting end to it all. I guess Montana and Wyoming get to become the super powers then.
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Apr 14, 2015 22:25
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Typo posted:Look you seem like someone who is genuinely interested in a good discussion, but I think D&D is really the wrong place for this type of debate. This isn't my first time here, though. I've lurked for years, and this is honestly the worst reaction I have ever seen to anyone seeking honest discussion. It was immediately taken over by straw manning, intellectual masturbation, and plain poo poo posting. poo poo like that would have seen people probated immediately in the past, or at least ignored if not called out. I loved going here for honest logical discussion about political issues, philosophy, religion, whatever. I made the mistake of not lurking in this forum recently to see how much the winds had changed and standards for good posting had eroded, and figured I had just made a grievous mistake somewhere or it was a fluke that obvious aggressive poo poo heads in the thread weren't being told to gently caress off of they weren't going to behave. I was wrong, apparently. I guess over time this forum may have become more of an echo chamber as everyone has had the same discussions, so fewer people are willing to dumb stuff down for a person who doesn't have an advanced degree on history or politics or had been around here long enough to know everything already. Or there was a conscious shift to looser discourse with more tolerance for low quality posts, like what happened in GBS. I just figured that worked for GBS but was kind of the opposite of what D&D would want. I made assumptions, was ignorant, and was severely slammed for it. Regardless of the causes, as a snapshot of the tolerance for ignorance (not stupidity), this thread casts a pretty lovely light on this forum in my eyes. I am relieved that in the last few posts things seem to have calmed down, which is nice, but gently caress me if I feel like contributing any time soon for fear of getting spit roasted for asking basic questions. I don't care if I sounded to some people as if I were a libertarian wolf in sheep's clothing, at face value it obviously isn't, because I loving wasn't. That is a time when giving the benefit of the doubt saves a cynical poster from blowing poo poo out of proportion and losing the interest someone may have in being an informed citizen. I want to see this forum and SA in general as really good at cutting through bullshit to get to the truth of matters, but I'm not so sure anymore.
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Apr 14, 2015 22:37
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Quit being a bitch and actually argue your points.
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Apr 14, 2015 22:47
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Locke Dunnegan posted:This isn't my first time here, though. I've lurked for years, and this is honestly the worst reaction I have ever seen to anyone seeking honest discussion. It was immediately taken over by straw manning, intellectual masturbation, and plain poo poo posting. poo poo like that would have seen people probated immediately in the past, or at least ignored if not called out. I loved going here for honest logical discussion about political issues, philosophy, religion, whatever. I made the mistake of not lurking in this forum recently to see how much the winds had changed and standards for good posting had eroded, and figured I had just made a grievous mistake somewhere or it was a fluke that obvious aggressive poo poo heads in the thread weren't being told to gently caress off of they weren't going to behave. I was wrong, apparently. Read QV's posts, and then do the opposite of that. Giant walls of text about possible apocalyptic insane scenarios are really annoying.
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Apr 14, 2015 22:47
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:Yeah OP, for real, look at the screwjob happening in places like North Carolina (where plutocrat Art Pope singlehandedly bought the GOP legislative majorities in both houses), Kansas (home turf of the Koch brothers, currently reeling after tax cuts passed by the governor and teabag-dominated state legislature) and Wisconsin (need I say anything about Scott Walker?); special interests can pack state legislatures and do much more damage there. what, exactly, about this post grinds your gears Mr. Dunnegan why do you ignore it how is it assholish
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Apr 14, 2015 22:48
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Venom Snake posted:Giant walls of text about possible apocalyptic insane scenarios are really cool. fixed that for ya  Just not giant walls of text regarding dumb politics or D&D as a whole.
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Apr 14, 2015 22:49
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Typo posted:Look you seem like someone who is genuinely interested in a good discussion, but I think D&D is really the wrong place for debate. Pretty much op, I would try GBS or perhaps e/n they seem to do good things with threads there. Locke Dunnegan posted:This isn't my first time here, though. I've lurked for years, and this is honestly the worst reaction I have ever seen to anyone seeking honest discussion. It was immediately taken over by straw manning, intellectual masturbation, and plain poo poo posting. poo poo like that would have seen people probated immediately in the past, or at least ignored if not called out. I loved going here for honest logical discussion about political issues, philosophy, religion, whatever. I made the mistake of not lurking in this forum recently to see how much the winds had changed and standards for good posting had eroded, and figured I had just made a grievous mistake somewhere or it was a fluke that obvious aggressive poo poo heads in the thread weren't being told to gently caress off of they weren't going to behave. I was wrong, apparently. Seriously though this place has gotten significantly more hostile to any view outside the established consensus in recent years. People usually point to the romney toxxers being banned but I think it's just a reflection of the political landscape's shift to being hostile to anyone not on the same team. tsa fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 23:03
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Can we please consider my proposals of how to save our nation from decay? A institution of a lifetime commander would do us a world of good.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:04
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Crowsbeak posted:Can we please consider my proposals of how to save our nation from decay? A institution of a lifetime commander would do us a world of good. The only commander I'll accept is Commander Shepard. 
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Apr 14, 2015 23:06
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tsa posted:Pretty much op, I would try GBS or perhaps e/n they seem to do good things with threads there. Really? I think it was much worse a few years ago when D&D had some sort of Marxists wanting to purge everyone else frenzy going on. Now it actually seems more moderate, or maybe its because I only read certain threads nowdays.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:08
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tsa posted:Pretty much op, I would try GBS or perhaps e/n they seem to do good things with threads there. Because things that are not the consensus tends to be dumb tryhard bullshit.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:09
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I mean you would think that posters frequenting a political discussion forum would want to show off their knowledge and prove their point but weirdly enough it's often just a race to see how fast the question can be avoided. Like "just asking questions" is now a bad thing; wanting to learn is now punished it's kinda crazy.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:10
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tsa posted:I mean you would think that posters frequenting a political discussion forum would want to show off their knowledge and prove their point but weirdly enough it's often just a race to see how fast the question can be avoided. Like "just asking questions" is now a bad thing; wanting to learn is now punished it's kinda crazy. It has quotations around it for a reason.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:12
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Locke Dunnegan posted:This isn't my first time here, though. I've lurked for years, and this is honestly the worst reaction I have ever seen to anyone seeking honest discussion. It was immediately taken over by straw manning, intellectual masturbation, and plain poo poo posting. poo poo like that would have seen people probated immediately in the past, or at least ignored if not called out. I loved going here for honest logical discussion about political issues, philosophy, religion, whatever. I made the mistake of not lurking in this forum recently to see how much the winds had changed and standards for good posting had eroded, and figured I had just made a grievous mistake somewhere or it was a fluke that obvious aggressive poo poo heads in the thread weren't being told to gently caress off of they weren't going to behave. I was wrong, apparently. *cant stand heat* *refuses to leave kitchen*
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Apr 14, 2015 23:12
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for real tho you're getting trolled to poo poo because you're obviously an easy target if you would stop complaining about your poor treatment in every post people would stop treating you poorly, hth this may be the part of something awful where people talk about politics and stuff but it's still something awful so trying to hold this subforum to higher standards regarding civil discourse than GBS is just dumb as gently caress and is actually a common thing people whine about when they don't think their posts through very well and get flamed for it
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Apr 14, 2015 23:13
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:what, exactly, about this post grinds your gears Mr. Dunnegan Sorry, trying not to spam the thread with my replies, and I'm away from home at the moment so I don't have the time to read up on your examples. Links or summaries would help anyway since I'm wary on reading random poo poo on the internet, especially about loaded topics like politics.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:13
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A Winner is Jew posted:The only commander I'll accept is Commander Shepard. Well we could have some family here adopt Jennifer Hale and then run her as Commander.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:14
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Popular Thug Drink posted:for real tho you're getting trolled to poo poo because you're obviously an easy target I dropped it as soon as someone else mentioned that people making GBS threads on me may be going a bit overboard. Nothing like a little vindication to reduce bitching, and I felt that replying to a quote defending me with "  " would have been uncouth
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Apr 14, 2015 23:16
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Popular Thug Drink posted:*cant stand heat* I never understood why D&D posters seem to have this machoism attached to hostile internet postings.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:16
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Locke Dunnegan posted:I dropped it as soon as someone else mentioned that people making GBS threads on me may be going a bit overboard. Nothing like a little vindication to reduce bitching, and I felt that replying to a quote defending me with ":hell yeah:" would have been uncouth you'll have more success if you break your questions down into one line statements that are easily discussed
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Apr 14, 2015 23:16
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Locke Dunnegan posted:Sorry, trying not to spam the thread with my replies, and I'm away from home at the moment so I don't have the time to read up on your examples. Links or summaries would help anyway since I'm wary on reading random poo poo on the internet, especially about loaded topics like politics. May I suggest that instead of reading random poo poo, you read a well-written text on the subject, like the one I provided for you above?
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Apr 14, 2015 23:17
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Typo posted:I never understood why D&D posters seem to have this machoism attached to hostile internet postings. because it raises the level of overall discouse to something barely more tolerable than youtube comments d&d has this weird reputation of being full of angry ultra leftists which isn't true but it's useful because generally the people who are scared to post in d&d have really dumb opinions and rarely show any insight, so it's better for everyone involved if they don't post here
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Apr 14, 2015 23:18
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My simple three step solution to saving America: - Split the East and West into two countries. - Expel all southern states not named New Mexico from the two newly formed countries - Bar entry in both to any non-hispanic white person while extending asylum to any other demographic in newly formed southern hellhole. See? Problem solved.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:18
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Obdicut posted:May I suggest that instead of reading random poo poo, you read a well-written text on the subject, like the one I provided for you above? Will you provide a free copy so the whole class can read, professor moneybags?
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Apr 14, 2015 23:21
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Popular Thug Drink posted:because it raises the level of overall discouse to something barely more tolerable than youtube comments I go on other forums which has better discourse than youtube comments all the time without the deeply ingrained hostility towards any opinions right of a certain point. quote:d&d has this weird reputation of being full of angry ultra leftists which isn't true but it's useful because generally the people who are scared to post in d&d have really dumb opinions and rarely show any insight, so it's better for everyone involved if they don't post here
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Apr 14, 2015 23:21
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Typo posted:I go on other forums which has better discourse than youtube comments all the time without the deeply ingrained hostility towards any opinions right of a certain point. lol ok man
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Apr 14, 2015 23:22
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Lotka Volterra posted:My simple three step solution to saving America: Best of all, rename the southern hell hole, hell and put a laser wire fence in place.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:23
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Popular Thug Drink posted:lol ok man ikr
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Apr 14, 2015 23:23
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The United States is one nation and any thinking that deviates from that is delusional.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:24
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Lotka Volterra posted:My simple three step solution to saving America: They shall henceforce be defined as the "Western United States Empire" and the "Eastern United States Empire". Centuries later, the western part will fall apart and come under the influence of the barbarians from Canada, fracturing into a series of kingdoms sharing a common American heritage. The eastern half will eventually be conquered by newly strong Cuba, who will seize NYC and declare the new Cuban empire. And there will be a bunch of crusades launched by the west to save the east from the Cubans but will eventually ironically sack the eastern capital of NYC and thus destroying it.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:24
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So what if some states would reenact Jim Crow laws. You don't have to live there. 
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Apr 14, 2015 23:25
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Will you provide a free copy so the whole class can read, professor moneybags? As I said, get it from the library or get the 2nd edition which is literally $.01. The idea that if you want to learn about a subject you should read serious sources rather than engage in random discussion on the internet really shouldn't be shocking.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:26
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