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Plague of Hats posted:Happy to oblige! I think he meant the former, but I would LOVE to find a post that is straight up calling us bullies.
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May 12, 2015 20:49
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Serf posted:Which is why most books I've seen include a Rule 0 type thing where they just say "do whatever works best at your table. Don't like a rule, change it." On that one clause alone you can basically argue for any interpretation of the rules you like or run the game however you like. Well, that's exactly what it's for. But Rule 0 being no excuse for sloppy design is a well trod subject around these parts. But I mean, we should accept the inevitable. If it's liked, someone is going to try to run GI Joe in my game about pastoral fantasy. That's why it bothers me that these people act like Rule 0 somehow doesn't apply to indie games because of system matters. Yeah, it does, but that doesn't mean it can't be messed around with. Screwing around with stuff is precisely how these games got made int he first place! For example, you like the concept behind Apocalypse World but don't like Sex Moves or whatever? Remove it. Make your own PbtA game.
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May 12, 2015 21:01
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Halloween Jack posted:It has a use. Someone, I'm pretty certain it was Avery McDaldno, said that when she tried to tell a lot of people about RPGs, their eyes just glazed over and they lost interest because they assumed it meant video games or stinky nerd poo poo about titty witches riding dick dragons. But storygames? You can get well-adjusted people who aren't Gamergaters to play that. I love Avery McDalno's stuff but she cannot have been explaining it right. I've managed to get a guy who has never played RPG's before playing a dwarf with 47 kids in 13th Age, abusing his network of family contacts to get poo poo done. It really depends where you put the emphasis in your explaination and I agree that if you don't do it right then it is gonna be dismissed as nerd shite, but if you boil it to basics then people are willing to at least try. Plague of Hats posted:I even would really like some industry-wide formalized language to emerge around these subjects, but the weird hatred for "narrative" means the well may be hopelessly poisoned. Yeah, I'd love more codified language for rpg mechanics and approaches because it would make my hobby as unfinished rpg writer a lot easier. But when people are using "story-game" as both a pedestal and a swear word then nothing's gonna get done. I also don't get how Vince Baker's so villified for Apocalypse World or whatever when he also made Mechaton, a game about making little lego mecha blow each other up and screaming about orange glowy chainsaws.
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May 12, 2015 22:41
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The Deleter posted:
I think he's mostly vilified for Poison'd, which mostly comes from an anecdote about a Con demo of it which he may or may not have been actually involved with?
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May 12, 2015 23:13
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unseenlibrarian posted:I think he's mostly vilified for Poison'd, which mostly comes from an anecdote about a Con demo of it which he may or may not have been actually involved with? This is basically it. I have no earthly idea how the story even went, someone played a game of Poison'd and some character raped another is about all I can even remember, and the RPG Pundit crowd latched onto it as a way of exposing RPGnet's hypocrisy over calling out people like James Desborough or something, which has since evolved into "Vincent Baker is a slavering story game rapelord."
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May 12, 2015 23:37
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Kai Tave posted:This is basically it. I have no earthly idea how the story even went, someone played a game of Poison'd and some character raped another is about all I can even remember, and the RPG Pundit crowd latched onto it as a way of exposing RPGnet's hypocrisy over calling out people like James Desborough or something, which has since evolved into "Vincent Baker is a slavering story game rapelord."
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May 13, 2015 03:25
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The original anecdote that set off the firestorm is here. Long story short, Poison'd is a Vincent Baker game about extremely nasty pirates being extremely nasty. Like The Devil's Rejects and Pink Flamingos on a pirate ship. Someone wrote an AP of a GenCon game wherein somebody chopped off a cabin boy's head and hosed the esophagus. TheRPGSite latched onto this and, as far as I know, they still haven't let it go. It's the favourite strawman of the people on that site who are so crazy, they think "storygames" are a Cultural Marxist conspiracy to destroy Western civilization. JDCorley posted:The only people still talking about Poison'd are on therpgsite, they talk about it all the time. They love thinking about Poison'd, it's the game they love to think about more than any other group on earth loves thinking about it. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 03:49 on May 13, 2015 |
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May 13, 2015 03:46
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So nobody worth listening to gives a poo poo about Poison'd anymore. Good to know!
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May 13, 2015 09:58
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quote:Dat feel, when people react with disgust when you introduce slutty captors and guardians to "locked up" scenario. quote:Well, the thing is, that while I wouldn't want to introduce fuckie-fuckie to Pokemon tabletop, I see no reason to not add it to games telling much more darker or adult stories, which rely on the concept of doing, you know, adult, often dark and violent stuff. Like killing. quote:Puritanism is still alive and well in the US, only difference is these days it comes at you from the left.
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May 13, 2015 10:19
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gradenko_2000 posted:
SO. loving. CLOSE.
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May 13, 2015 11:46
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The Deleter posted:
All it would take is asking the players what they are comfortable with BEFORE dumping 5 hours and 6000 words into your adventure, and everything would be peachy.
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May 13, 2015 12:15
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Dat-- no, I can't even write it. That feeling, when the party passes by, unpissed.
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May 13, 2015 12:37
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Or, you know, do some improv.
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May 13, 2015 12:42
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Always love the negative response to some dude's magical realm piss wizard bullshit being "RPGs used to be about experiencing new things and exploring boundaries... ALL THOSE POSSIBILITIES... LOST LIKE TEARS IN RAIN."
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May 13, 2015 12:45
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Huh, it's almost like most people don't want to play through his "sexy" prisoners scenario because it's really uncomfortable? What is it with people wanting to force their weird kinks on people through gaming?
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May 13, 2015 12:57
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Serf posted:Huh, it's almost like most people don't want to play through his "sexy" prisoners scenario because it's really uncomfortable? What is it with people wanting to force their weird kinks on people through gaming? Discounting an earlier post I wrote on this subject, there really is no reason why sex cannot be part of a player character's agenda ... despite a general feeling that no one would ever want to take part in sex and gaming unless one were, as Roger the GS puts it, "goofy horndogs" ... despite, as he also says, the lack of mechanical means. This continues to astound me, really ... but then matters of sex always do. For such a universal recreation; for something that undeniably offers the best feeling - however brief - that any human has a chance at obtaining, for free; and for something that yields the most rewarding experience and purpose that can conceivably be available, the insertion of life into one's family and care, this culture just baffles the living gently caress out of me. But then, I grew up in the 70s. No one in the 70s thought that any of this moral crap was going to hold out much longer. Stonewall had happened, public nudity had broken the barrier, the powers that be were unable to hold back not only the spread of porn but the spread of all kinds of porn. The religious right had failed in their effort to stem the tide of swearing and sex in film, or to keep people from making fun of religion (see Life of Brian) and on the whole, generally, the majority was waking up to the fact that sex could be talked about, it could be admitted openly as something a person liked, and all those people who whined about it were clearly impotent and constipated. Then ... the moral majority coalesced and went to war against the free press and media by targeting advertisers and money. AIDS happened and the public was deluged with misinformation that expressly misrepresented homosexuals ... and terrified heteros in their beds. Governments and especially the feminist right cracked down on kink with laws and invented morality intended to make everything sound like rape. And political correctness was invented. So here we are. People still like sex. The porn is still everywhere. Homosexuality hasn't been crushed. Television and movies are full of nudity and kink. All the morality proscription failed in the extreme. Rule 34 reigns supreme. But four guys sitting around a table playing D&D can't deal with one of them saying he'd like to have sex with an Elven princess without being labeled a "goofy horndog." Baffling. I don't know if its because boys who play D&D are so socially inept with women that homosexuality is a constant, terrifying possibility - being that they cannot get within touching range of anything but boys - or if it is because D&D boys are so noticeably desperate that speaking out loud of the opposite sex brings derision and hatred because, well, We Do Not Speak Of Them Here. I've certainly been in some games where boys describing sex with women was a wild free-for-all, going back to our high school days when those things were funny as hell. I have it on good authority that there are some profoundly unpleasant moments at some tables for girls where the sex jokes are constant, blatant and abusive ... and so maybe that's the goofy horndogginess that occurs at Roger's table. That kind of horndogginess would get you punched in the face at mine. Probably not by me - I'm all the way on the other side of the table. There are some boyfriends and women who would be a lot closer to you, who'd reach you first. Sex is a part of the human experience. It's a huge part of drama, of purpose, of what makes us go. We identify in large part with the need for, and the results of, sex. This is why there is a lot more sex on the internet than there is D&D. But it makes a player feel ... uncomfortable. That is the whole argument against. "We were playing the game the other day, and we had gotten into town after a hard battle. The DM said there were some prostitutes by the front gate, just to make us understand what kind of town it was, and Jeremy - he's new - asked how much they cost. We laughed, but he was serious. Oh my god. So the DM told him, and Jeremy said he paid the money and they did it in back of the guardhouse. Jeez, it just made me sick. What a loving horndog." And ... yeah. It's not actually difficult to get into a discussion these days about sex. They happen at work, they happen spontaneously at the bar, they just sort of crop up here and there. Hell, I've had conversations about sex with my parents (after I got to be 40, they just loosened up, no idea why). Of course, there's the whole internet. And what's funny is that there are these vast, open landscapes of people talking openly about sex, and the sex they'd like to have, and when they'd like to have it, or when they did have it ... and none of them are snorting in comical shock when someone says "boob" or "pussy" - like a bunch of cheezy grade sixers. We all know where these chat rooms are. And we know people go there when they'd like to stop being alone, and maybe meet someone of like mind. I met my present partner of 12 years through one, back in 2001. The "uncomfortable" argument is a powerful one. It transcends the table, it reaches out to the whole D&D internet, where Roger and many others sneer in disgust at the idea of a player choosing to step into the shoes of a HUMAN BEING. Yes, by all means, hack things to death. Yes, gloat over gold. Please, here, the door is wide open for any mind loving game-playing you'd like to do with other players or the DM. Yes, welcome to the land of megalomaniacs, narcissists, gluttons and the pompous. "But we don't do that other thing." The moody, dangerous Pirate Captain heads down to the beach, bottle of ouzo in hand, mourning the loss of her dead husband, whom the party briefly knew and whom they buried. The player character watches her, well aware of how violent she can be, how deep her feelings - and though she's been described by a male DM, the description is compelling, just like every description of a strong female character in a book or story written by a man has been since the dawn of time. And the player would like to do something. He's interested in where events might go if somehow this NPC were induced to be more than just a momentary distraction, but an ally too. But how to approach her. She seems to disdain everyone and everything. But clearly she is filled with passion. What to do? Like any fighter girdling on a sword and stepping up to a lion, daring to face the thing in its lair, he marches forward and without any weapons at all. He knows she probably carries a dagger. He knows she's murdered men before. But he wants to believe there's more than that. He tells the DM he seizes her by the arm, and turns her around. He's a fighter, he's fifty pounds more than her, and the DM rolls a die. "I tell her to stop being stupid," the player tells the DM. "I tell her she cannot mourn his death forever. She's destroying herself with liquor and this endless sorrow. I shout at her, tell her to be alive now, to recognize that her dead husband would not want her to stay like this." "She fights you," says the DM, and the player realizes that her hand might in that moment reach for the dagger she has hidden. "I hold on tight." The DM pronounces that the player is successful. The woman doesn't speak, and asks if the player says anything else. The player, daring, says, "I tell her that her husband left her." The DM rolls a die, says the woman breaks free and punches the fighter. He takes a point of damage. "drat YOU!" the woman says. The fighter doesn't give in. "He gave you all he had and now he has left you. He's left you here, alone, and you know that there's nothing else he can give you!" A roll. The DM says the woman stands her ground, furious, trying with all her strength to hold herself together, but clearly she's too overwhelmed to speak. The fighter says, "I speak to her very gently. I tell her she's not alone. I tell her there are others here who won't leave. Who will fight with you, win with you ... and die WITH you. If you will open your eyes." She looks at the fighter. The DM announces that she is overwhelmed. He says that the woman lifts a hand, half-heartedly, towards the fighter. The fighter responds, "I seize the hand. I use it to pull her tight against me. If she makes no protest, I kiss her hard. I make her understand I've meant every word." The DM says she doesn't fight. She gives in. She yields. The fighter says, "I press her down to the sand. I'm very careful not to push too hard, not to hurry. I want her to understand that this is not sex, this is me caring for her. I want her to understand that I'm willing to be there for her." The DM judges the moment, chooses 2d6, decides that if its a 7 or more, then she returns the feeling; if it's a 6 or less, she has merely weakened, but she is still thinking about her husband. The DM rolls a 9. "She understands," the DM says.
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May 13, 2015 13:06
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Serf posted:Huh, it's almost like most people don't want to play through his "sexy" prisoners scenario because it's really uncomfortable? What is it with people wanting to force their weird kinks on people through gaming? As a narrative it kind of plays into the whole macho gender-role bullshit (and I'm clearly generalizing), but you have to wonder if they're trying to fulfil some need they're not getting met elsewhere. Or perhaps it's just that those particular tropes are so common, and especially powerful with a certain subset of GMs. If you're kind of a lazy GM you'll end up using the same tropes a lot. I'm guilty of overusing female NPCs that are stalkery/obsessive myself. It's not really a fetish, but my players are kind of passive, and I really like having relationship drama in my games. Luckily, everyone is on-board with that, even if it can get pretty predictable.
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May 13, 2015 13:13
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First of all, it scares me how quickly you dug that quote up. Second, that is still one of the dumbest things I've ever read in my life. Yo, I don't care what weird poo poo you get up to at your table, if everyone's into it you can be creepy all you want. Please find others and quarantine yourselves away from the rest of us. These 600+ word screeds are just sad and also as creepy as the acts they describe. Edit: Biomute posted:As a narrative it kind of plays into the whole macho gender-role bullshit (and I'm clearly generalizing), but you have to wonder if they're trying to fulfil some need they're not getting met elsewhere. I hear the internet is a wonderful place for getting all the needs you could possibly want met, at least in that regard. Maybe I'm just from the breed of people who game in the "beer-and-pretzels" style, but poo poo like that would make my skin crawl at the table. I'm generally okay with the players making jokes and whatnot, but there's a line. I basically had to end a game because a (relatively normal) player just all of a sudden decided that his character was going to get a prostitute and kill her afterwards. The game kinda fell apart after that and I don't really talk to him anymore... Edit 2: paradoxGentleman posted:I am 90% sure that that was copy pasted from somewhere. Serf posted:First of all, it scares me how quickly you dug that quote up. I'm 100% sure I've seen it before in one variation of this thread or another. Serf fucked around with this message at 13:26 on May 13, 2015 |
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May 13, 2015 13:15
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I am 90% sure that that was copy pasted from somewhere.
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May 13, 2015 13:23
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Halloween Jack posted:...words... That is the creepiest thing I've read... in a while. Serf posted:I hear the internet is a wonderful place for getting all the needs you could possibly want met, at least in that regard. Maybe I'm just from the breed of people who game in the "beer-and-pretzels" style, but poo poo like that would make my skin crawl at the table. I'm generally okay with the players making jokes and whatnot, but there's a line. I basically had to end a game because a (relatively normal) player just all of a sudden decided that his character was going to get a prostitute and kill her afterwards. The game kinda fell apart after that and I don't really talk to him anymore... Oh, I agree. Personally, I'll include sex in games if it furthers the story in some way, and I'll generally not be graphic about it. I don't have anything against titillation on principle, but it's not what I'm looking for and the consequences of a relationship becoming intimate is generally more interesting than the act. As far as the extreme end of this goes I have a really hard time seeing how playing elfgames around the gaming table is a good environment for exploring the topics of rape and sexual violence. I find that it's generally a good idea to discuss "lines and veils" before playing with someone new. Make it clear what topics people in the group feel are completely off-limits (lines) and which can be alluded to or "shown of camera" (veils). thotsky fucked around with this message at 13:40 on May 13, 2015 |
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May 13, 2015 13:37
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Biomute posted:
I actually like romantic RP in games, assuming it's handled with any level of grace, and honestly with adults that is not as hard as you'd think. But romance on the high seas/skies/darkest dungeons/whatever is a far cry from someone inserting creepy kinks into a game, and normal adult people can generally spot and avoid the line. I mean there's 'sexual relations that further the story' and then there's 'romance that IS the story or at least a large part' and both of those are okay. They're still both very different from wanting to make one's friends join in a graphic prison fantasy. Also when grimachu and others complain about "puritanism" they are misunderstanding puritan culture fairly badly. They totally did sex, just not in public, they expected a man to please his wife, used various methods of contraception and permitted abortion until "the quickening," which is when the mother feels the baby kick.
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May 13, 2015 14:31
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It's a lot easier to get mad about Puritans than Shakers, though. Puritans kill witches, Shakers...made furniture.
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May 13, 2015 14:35
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Serf posted:First of all, it scares me how quickly you dug that quote up. Second, that is still one of the dumbest things I've ever read in my life. Yo, I don't care what weird poo poo you get up to at your table, if everyone's into it you can be creepy all you want. Please find others and quarantine yourselves away from the rest of us. These 600+ word screeds are just sad and also as creepy as the acts they describe.
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May 13, 2015 14:36
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occamsnailfile posted:
Vaguely disappointed that it's not "Until the baby decapitates his first fellow immortal and takes his power"
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May 13, 2015 15:11
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Halloween Jack posted:...words... Holy cow that quote is extremely unsettling to read and crazy weird. It reminds me of that D&D episode of Community... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODgu_-rR1X8
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May 13, 2015 15:13
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The DM judges the moment, chooses 2d6, decides that if its a 7 or more, he is getting drunk.
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May 13, 2015 15:18
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Bieeardo posted:Dat-- no, I can't even write it.
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May 13, 2015 15:21
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He rolls a 6. I need another drink.
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May 13, 2015 15:31
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Halloween Jack posted:That's a classic from Alexis Smolensk, who flew into a rage at the suggestion that the scenario was "rapey" and who compares YDIS to the people committing genocide in Darfur because they cyberbullied him. YDIS?
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May 14, 2015 20:26
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Your Dungeon is Suck https://yourdungeonissuck.wordpress.com/ Seems to be a blog based version of this thread, calling out the terrible in the OSR.
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May 14, 2015 20:29
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Your Dungeon Is Suck, a blog that discusses the more notorious grog wellsprings.
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May 14, 2015 20:29
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The weird thing about YDIS is that it's really juvenile itself, and if you aren't hip-deep in OSR goings-on, you won't get a lot of what they're talking about.
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May 14, 2015 20:38
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The DM judges the moment, chooses 2d6, decides that no matter what he's closing the book and leaving the table.
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May 14, 2015 20:47
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Halloween Jack posted:The weird thing about YDIS is that it's really juvenile itself, and if you aren't hip-deep in OSR goings-on, you won't get a lot of what they're talking about. Yeah, I could barely read that. It was like a hatchet job on someone, I could tell that much, but after that it was pretty arcane stuff.
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May 14, 2015 21:06
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Halloween Jack posted:The weird thing about YDIS is that it's really juvenile itself, and if you aren't hip-deep in OSR goings-on, you won't get a lot of what they're talking about.
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May 14, 2015 21:12
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If we're digging out the classics, how about my favorite? I GOT TOO REAL FOR HER
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May 14, 2015 21:19
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First off, hello. I have wandered into this forum from somewheres else. For whatever reason, My interest in RPGs has rekindled after about 8 years of binge drinking and womanizing. I am ready to return to being a D&D geek. I used to play AD&D 2e almost exclusively, but I started out on "the red box" back around 16 years ago, and MERP, Twilight 2000, Car Wars and others I have been known to play and GM. Basically, I am waaaay out of the loop. After a certain publisher ruined gaming for me with card games, I lost all interest. Now there is this d20 deal out (what the crap is it?) and AD&D is now D&D 20X6 or 3.5 or XP or whatever, I am really reluctant to go out and spend all kinds of hard earned dough on new systems. (especially when I had so much fun with the old stuff) I found a site to pay to download the moldy oldies, and have started doing so. How many others are out there like me who can get down with the "red box" and have some fun? I am sure I will wander over to the Greyhawk page and do some posting there too, because I can't stand the Realms. Am I in the wrong mindset? wrong place? Is this a convention of "younger than me, with the attitude of latest and greatest?"
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May 14, 2015 21:23
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The best thing about YDIS, which is not much, is when RPGSite rediscovers it for whatever reason. The accusations start flying, against some of their own sometimes, but mostly against Ettin. They cannot get enough of Ettin. If someone else is not the direct cause of their current upset, they just fall back to blaming Ettin for everything. Dude's busy as hell, I guess.
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May 14, 2015 21:35
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gradenko_2000 posted:Yeah YDIS doesn't really come off like the adult in the room, either. Jesus loving christ, the comments (yeah I know I know) read like something sensitive threads. Even when they say poo poo I can agree with (Zak is bad and dumb m'kay) they just go so far into moronic asshattery they come across even worse.
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May 14, 2015 21:54
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Plague of Hats posted:The best thing about YDIS, which is not much, is when RPGSite rediscovers it for whatever reason. The accusations start flying, against some of their own sometimes, but mostly against Ettin. They cannot get enough of Ettin. If someone else is not the direct cause of their current upset, they just fall back to blaming Ettin for everything. Dude's busy as hell, I guess. Truly a hero to us all
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May 15, 2015 02:35
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