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thexerox123 posted:I thought at least one of those firings was rumored to have more to do with Moffat and a possible affair? Actually that was allegedly with Caroline Skinner toward the end of Season 7. Really it's just all hilarious.
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May 22, 2015 15:11
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Moffat is getting much more directly involved with the writing these days - you can tell because of the number of scripts that are attributed "[someone else and Stephen Moffat." I sort of hope he's moving more toward that and trying to delegate a lot more when it comes to the showrunning, although dear God, someone still needs to tell him to stop giving interviews. I think the small community of people who hate everything he does has a lot more to do with his persona and a lot less to do with his teleplays.
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May 22, 2015 15:43
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Moffat has gone through like 2/3 producers now just by being an unlikeable smug poo poo who starts shouting matches with them during conferences. Hopefully he'll punch someone soon so he can get fired like Clarkson.
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May 22, 2015 15:49
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I think one of the most important duties of a showrunner is to run the show. Keep cast and crew happy, make sure everything is in budget, and get episodes made. Moffat has shown himself to be really bad at this.
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May 22, 2015 15:59
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I feel like this is one of those cases where there should be two executive producers, one creative and one production. Someone paired with Moffat to take care of the practical poo poo.
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May 22, 2015 16:01
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Exactly. Moffat's at his best when he's not being distracted by...reality.
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May 22, 2015 16:06
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I wish Amy and Rory had left at the end of series 6. It was set up perfectly for them to leave voluntarily, instead Moffat has them hang around for another year (even if it is a year of only six episodes) and then pulls the much mocked "they are trapped and the Doctor can never return to 1930s New York to rescue them" poo poo. Which makes no sense on any level. As many have pointed out couldn't he return to 1930s New Jersey and got the train into the city? Or pick them up after a few years had passed? And as an Angels episode it follows the pattern of the Angels getting worse and worse with newer and stupider powers with every return appearance.
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May 22, 2015 16:16
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Oh, it just occurred to me that the Angels from Blink were probably scavenging and starving as a result of what happened in this episode. Good old time loop Moffat.
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May 22, 2015 16:26
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Bown posted:Moffat has gone through like 2/3 producers now just by being an unlikeable smug poo poo who starts shouting matches with them during conferences. Hopefully he'll punch someone soon so he can get fired like Clarkson. don't post like this
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May 22, 2015 16:38
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Factually? No I'm totally serious. The first half of that post at least is just fact-stating. That is what happened.
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May 22, 2015 16:51
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2house2fly posted:Good old time loop Moffat. New Thread Title please. marktheando posted:I wish Amy and Rory had left at the end of series 6. It was set up perfectly for them to leave voluntarily, instead Moffat has them hang around for another year (even if it is a year of only six episodes) and then pulls the much mocked "they are trapped and the Doctor can never return to 1930s New York to rescue them" poo poo. Which makes no sense on any level. As many have pointed out couldn't he return to 1930s New Jersey and got the train into the city? Or pick them up after a few years had passed? This is why Season 7 is almost entirely a "purged from memory" season until we get to the episode after "Angels in Manhattan."
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May 22, 2015 16:53
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I think he'd kind of written himself into a corner. He's already established by the beginning of this season that nothing is going to stop Amy and Rory from travelling with the Doctor. They've already matured and moved past him as individuals and grown into their own people and been killed multiples times and had their faith in him destroyed and none of that did it. So what more could possibly be done to those characters to make them voluntarily abandon him? You can't have Amy stub her toe the next week and decide she's had it; that would be substantially stupider than what we got. It had to be something that forced him out of their lives. The standard way of handling this would just be to kill them off permanently, but it seems like Moffat couldn't bear to do it. So instead we have the solution we have, where they are somehow forced into a place and time he can't get to (much like Rose) but they still end up having a happy ending because they get to live the rest of their lives together and the environment isn't actively hostile or alien (just a bit old-fashioned). There is no way to create a place like that that makes any kind of sense in Doctor Who, a show explicitly about a guy who can go anywhere in space and time that he wants. It would have been best to have them leave him and retain the possibility that they could do guest appearances someday. It would have been second-best to kill them both off permanently. This is the third option and it's not very good for that reason; it feels like a cheat because it IS a cheat.
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May 22, 2015 16:56
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I think it's about time the (modern iteration of the) show straight-up killed a companion. The showrunners always end up way too enamoured with their own creations. Let someone get shot in the face or something.
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May 22, 2015 16:58
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Isn't the only confirmed-confirmed "the only reason you died and didn't come back was because you traveled with the Doctor" companion Adric anyway? I'd say they're over a quarter of a century due for another one of those.
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May 22, 2015 17:02
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Like, it makes sense that he wouldn't be able to go back to get them, because that would be screwing with the web of time and creating paradoxes, but the Angels feed off potential, so the fact that they seemed to realize all of their potential after being sent back doesn't really work. The episode itself is fun in moments (I can get past how absurd it is that nobody is looking at the Statue of Liberty long enough for it to attack because of how cool the big scary Statue of Liberty is, and the little cherub things were cool). I could have done without all of the "Yowza!" stuff at the beginning. It's mostly disappointing because it was the send-off for the revival's longest running companions and it's mediocre and difficult to swallow at best.
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May 22, 2015 17:07
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mind the walrus posted:Isn't the only confirmed-confirmed "the only reason you died and didn't come back was because you traveled with the Doctor" companion Adric anyway? I'd say they're over a quarter of a century due for another one of those. Katarina and Sara Kingdom were holding their own in difficult circumstances before they left with the Doctor and got killed. Kamelion, if you count him. I think that's it for the TV series, though.
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May 22, 2015 17:09
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Bown posted:I think it's about time the (modern iteration of the) show straight-up killed a companion. The showrunners always end up way too enamoured with their own creations. Let someone get shot in the face or something. I'd honestly settle for a companion going "it's been fun, but I've found something else to do now, look me up next time you're in this century" the way it usually worked in the old days. I guess that's broadly how it worked with Martha, but I am so tired of Tragic Farewell being the default.
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May 22, 2015 17:23
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Bicyclops posted:Like, it makes sense that he wouldn't be able to go back to get them, because that would be screwing with the web of time and creating paradoxes Haha when has that ever stopped him in the past?
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May 22, 2015 17:26
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To be fair, the old way was often "I've found a barbarian king I want to marry now. We just met and we're in love. Goodbye, Doctor," which isn't really ideal, either.
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May 22, 2015 17:28
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idonotlikepeas posted:I think he'd kind of written himself into a corner. He's already established by the beginning of this season that nothing is going to stop Amy and Rory from travelling with the Doctor. They've already matured and moved past him as individuals and grown into their own people and been killed multiples times and had their faith in him destroyed and none of that did it. So what more could possibly be done to those characters to make them voluntarily abandon him? You can't have Amy stub her toe the next week and decide she's had it; that would be substantially stupider than what we got. It had to be something that forced him out of their lives. The standard way of handling this would just be to kill them off permanently, but it seems like Moffat couldn't bear to do it. So instead we have the solution we have, where they are somehow forced into a place and time he can't get to (much like Rose) but they still end up having a happy ending because they get to live the rest of their lives together and the environment isn't actively hostile or alien (just a bit old-fashioned). The thing is, the episodes before this one had a running theme of the Doctor seeing less of them and the double life being difficult to manage. It wasn't until the end of Power Of Three that they resolved to stay with the Doctor and it feels like the whole reason to have them decide that was to make the forced separation this episode more of a shock. The scene where they get zapped at the end feels almost tacked on, like that guy Joseph Lidster who writes some of the most hated audios in the other thread because he always sticks a grimdark twist at the end. Still, it does work with the themes of series 7 at least- in series 6 the Doctor saved himself and Everybody Lived, now he's confronting deaths and other endings that can't be undone.
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May 22, 2015 17:30
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Bicyclops posted:To be fair, the old way was often "I've found a barbarian king I want to marry now. We just met and we're in love. Goodbye, Doctor," which isn't really ideal, either. Yeah that's clumsy writing and hard to believe (unless the barbarian king is Brian Blessed of course).
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May 22, 2015 17:33
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Bown posted:Factually? It's getting straight up tiresome that you are quite literally the only person in this thread who can't air a grievance you have without sounding like the most bitter and childish dude on the planet It's saying something that the person who's so goddamn vitriolic and intentionally divisive that he's been literally banned from several threads on this forum has the moral high ground here
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May 22, 2015 17:34
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marktheando posted:Yeah that's clumsy writing and hard to believe (unless the barbarian king is Brian Blessed of course). I guess when I really think about it, it's just Susan, Jo and Peri who leave for love, and with Susan, it's more about letting her go to live a life of her own instead of looking after him. Jo falls in love with somebody in her own age, so at least she isn't stranded in time if they break up, and with Peri, it was a tacked-on ending so that she didn't die. I can't remember if Nyssa is leaving to marry that guy or if that's more a contrivance of the audios; I remembered being more that she found it an interesting place to do research. But yeah, so far, Martha is the only revival companion who doesn't leave because of a tragic ending, and just kind of spent some time learning about herself and moved on.
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May 22, 2015 17:39
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Toxxupation posted:It's saying something that the person who's so goddamn vitriolic and intentionally divisive that he's been literally banned from several threads on this forum has the moral high ground here Who is that?
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May 22, 2015 17:42
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marktheando posted:Who is that? *coughs nervously*
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May 22, 2015 17:46
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Toxxupation posted:It's getting straight up tiresome that you are quite literally the only person in this thread who can't air a grievance you have without sounding like the most bitter and childish dude on the planet Have you ever seen that bit in Evening with Kevin Smith where he talks about the weird run-in with Tim Burton where him and his friend were giggling as he made these jokes about considering legal action for a similarity between two of their works, but then it's printed in the paper in a really somber manner? I'm just being glib, Occ. I'm not angry and I don't hold this massive grudge against Moffat and I'm being hyperbolic for comic effect. And to be kinda honest I think that is just about the most obvious thing ever.
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May 22, 2015 17:49
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2house2fly posted:It's really not fair on the poor episode to start picking at plot holes. I was surprised to see in the Wikipedia page that this episode got good reviews I'm sure I remember everyone thinking at the time that it was a stinker. Maybe I just got that impression because I thought that. I don't think there's ever been an Angels episode that hasn't been positively received by the community at large. While the DoctorWhat crowd can maintain objectivity, to normal people the Angels are an inspiration to numerous video games villains ranging from Minecraft to Five Nights At Freddy's, nearly rebooting horror in that medium alone. That basically means generally all-purpose nerds (not Doctor Who specific nerds) are going to wet their pants in glee. It's going to be a while before they have an episode that the "DO YOU KNOW ABOUT DOCTOR WHO HAVE YOU SEEN 'BLINK' YOU SHOULD REALLY WATCH 'BLINK'" crowd are disappointed in.
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May 22, 2015 17:51
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docbeard posted:I guess that's broadly how it worked with Martha, but I am so tired of Tragic Farewell being the default. To be a little fair to Moffat, Gillan did request she get written out in grand tragic fashion
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May 22, 2015 18:19
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Toxxupation posted:*coughs nervously* I think you are a good egg Toxx, even if you do like anime.
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May 22, 2015 18:22
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It's been a while since I've seen this episode so forgive me if I'm remembering some details incorrectly, but what bugs me the most is when he sees the tombstone and goes NOOOOO NOW ITS OFFICIAL, and this follows an entire season where he finds out how to avoid his own death even though it was witnessed. Like, what, you can't conceivably create a timeline where you just make a tombstone for someone who's still alive and slap it down? I dunno. Time travel hurts my head.
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May 22, 2015 18:35
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Amy and Rory could easily have been written out after season 6 with their last scene being the epilogue to the Christmas Special where they all have dinner and it would've felt totally natural, I don't buy that he had to pull something like this to write them out.
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May 22, 2015 18:53
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My personal theory is that this follows on from the episode with the faith eating fear monster. We didn't see the Doctors room, I like to think it was Amy and Rory dead. He knows that they can't travel with him forever. Basic odds at least say that eventually one of Rory's deaths will stick, and that would destroy Amy. The previous episode also establishes that they will never give the Doctor up, and who could blame them for that. This gives him an out. The Doctor knows from Amy's note that things work out well for Rory and Amy. Sure he could find a loophole, and they would travel with him again, but eventually they would be seperated again, probably in worse circumstances. He is heartbroken at having to break the bond he has now had for hundreds of years of his life, but to take this chance and let them go is the most sincere act of friendship he can make.
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May 22, 2015 18:59
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Angels is the eventual end point of Moffat reusing monsters in a terrible, inconsistent manner. In the original, they were simple, terrifying and lethal. In the second episode, they gained new powers inexplicably and Moffat misstepped on presenting them. In this episode, he throws everything out the window and we get a gigantic Statue of Liberty angel. When people complain about Moffat reusing monsters, this is why. He tends to take a good idea he already had, then just keeps jamming that round peg into scripts with square holes because he doesn't have time or motivating to make up some square pegs.
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May 22, 2015 19:04
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death .cab for qt posted:In this episode, he throws everything out the window and we get a gigantic Statue of Liberty angel. If he didn't do it, people would have wanted it. There's something kind of awesome about the idea that this huge statue is actually a giant killer alien from outer space, and the only thing keeping it in place is that one of the most populous city regions in the world sits around it, keeping an eye in it at all times.
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May 22, 2015 19:48
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The Statue of Liberty could have been handled equally as well by having the Doctor say "hey we should look out for any other angel statues" and then going  as they look at it, and just leaving whether it is an Angel or not up in the air. Enjoy your visit to New York City, kids!The whole "I can never see them again" is bad because if the actors ever wanted to make as cameo or something, it can't happen.
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May 22, 2015 20:21
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monster on a stick posted:The Statue of Liberty could have been handled equally as well by having the Doctor say "hey we should look out for any other angel statues" and then going It's also bad because he could literally just travel back to that time period but to, like, New Jersey, take a short trip, say hi, and then go back. Or just go to them the YEAR AFTER all of the time web bullshit and go yo! The only reason he doesn't is because the Doctor's a lazy rear end in a top hat, it seems. See, functioning Dalek Empire.
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May 22, 2015 20:23
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The Dalek Empire thing is kind of a dumb excuse, but it seems like if anyone could find out how to keep the TARDIS out it would be the Daleks. Some Doctors don't really "drive" the TARDIS but merely give suggestion and otherwise get driven by the TARDIS. Eleven is clearpy one of those.
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May 22, 2015 20:33
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Craptacular! posted:The Dalek Empire thing is kind of a dumb excuse, but it seems like if anyone could find out how to keep the TARDIS out it would be the Daleks. I can't reply to this til later.
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May 22, 2015 20:35
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Burkion posted:It's also bad because he could literally just travel back to that time period but to, like, New Jersey, take a short trip, say hi, and then go back. I can understand not wanting to travel to New Jersey though, he'd get lost on the Turnpike or something and end up on the Tappan Zee which is way the gently caress out there.
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May 22, 2015 20:43
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i thought The Doctor's Wife took place in New Jersey
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May 22, 2015 20:45
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