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Pinning austerity to the deal is mainly for the narrative: if the Greeks accept austerity, they are de facto conceding that the problem was "irresponsible spending" on things like social welfare and basically all of the band aids for when capitalism starts leaking because the only other alternatives to admit there is something inherently tong with the capitalist system and omg that means we need to go back and read Marx and repent for our sins
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Jul 16, 2015 08:25
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Looking forward to a giant wooden horse appearing outside Brussels. Bad dad joke time: From now on, all new Euro currency notes will be printed on greaseproof paper. Apologiez.
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Jul 16, 2015 09:08
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Pinning austerity to the deal is mainly for the narrative: if the Greeks accept austerity, they are de facto conceding that the problem was "irresponsible spending" on things like social welfare and basically all of the band aids for when capitalism starts leaking because the only other alternatives to admit there is something inherently tong with the capitalist system and omg that means we need to go back and read Marx and repent for our sins socialism is dead
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Jul 16, 2015 09:52
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concerned mom posted:The greeks are revolting! you said it, they stink on ice
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Jul 16, 2015 10:08
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If you want a piss off a Greek racist just keep mistaking him for a Persian
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Jul 16, 2015 10:26
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basically the texas of the eu
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Jul 16, 2015 10:28
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Alan Smithee posted:If you want a piss off a Greek racist just keep mistaking him for a Persian maybe in 400BC but i think turk works better these days
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Jul 16, 2015 10:59
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Philthy posted:basically the texas of the eu No, Texas at least contributes to the economy and also creates jobs. You're also labeled a pussy bitch of you dare to try and retire at 50. Nobody retires in texas
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Jul 16, 2015 10:59
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lol Hitler might be a little advanced for them. The best Greece could hope for is Greek Mussolini.
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Jul 16, 2015 12:10
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Does it make me a bad person if i desperately wish to see Greece taken over by the Golden Dawn so I can read the news about the butchery, racist policies, etc and smile.
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Jul 16, 2015 12:18
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More pics of the riots in the Greek Isle of Spanakos.
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Jul 16, 2015 12:21
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Just make the Germans pay off the Greek debt with the forgiven debts from WW1/2 and everyones happy with money left over
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Jul 16, 2015 13:01
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A Stupid Baby posted:Just make the Germans pay off the Greek debt with the forgiven debts from WW1/2 and everyones happy with money left over nah, thats when the german banks collapse and we get to see some real fun
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Jul 16, 2015 13:02
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Cubone posted:as i understand it, the european union was an attempt by every developed nation in the western world except for the united states and canada to get together and try to be almost as good as america, and it did not work, and then one of them immediately descended into a fascist shithole.just what happens when you reach too far i guess Europeans are so racist and stupid. This is going to end horribly.
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Jul 16, 2015 13:03
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ashgromnies posted:Europeans are so racist and stupid. This is going to end horribly. There are ancestral enemies and ancient wrongs that can't easily be forgotten.
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Jul 16, 2015 13:22
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Pinning austerity to the deal is mainly for the narrative: if the Greeks accept austerity, they are de facto conceding that the problem was "irresponsible spending" on things like social welfare and basically all of the band aids for when capitalism starts leaking because the only other alternatives to admit there is something inherently tong with the capitalist system and omg that means we need to go back and read Marx and repent for our sins well, austerity is also a really good way of transferring money from the greek public to creditors, on top of the ~90+% of the bailout that never even enters greece and just flows directly into the banks' coffers lol austerity deffo isnt about getting greece "back on track" cause absolutely everyone is like "hmm it would appear that austerity without currency control just destroys economies" like, you know things are bad when the fuckin IMF is trying to get you to stop punitively wrecking a country's poo poo
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Jul 16, 2015 13:29
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adolfiakis hitleropoulos
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Jul 16, 2015 13:34
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moussakalini
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Jul 16, 2015 13:53
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Ambrose Burnside posted:well, austerity is also a really good way of transferring money from the greek public to creditors, on top of the ~90+% of the bailout that never even enters greece and just flows directly into the banks' coffers lol Um I don't think you udnerstand money. If I get paid $1000 dollars, and I don't spend $500, I have $500. If I spend $1000 I don't have any money left to fix the roof. Economiecs is pretty simple stuff.
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Jul 16, 2015 13:56
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The past face of Greek evil: Quite spooky, imo. Will they be back? gently caress knows. The Athens stock exchange used to get bombed on the reg even a couple of years ago and it didn't happen.
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Jul 16, 2015 16:05
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ashgromnies posted:Europeans are so racist and stupid. This is going to end horribly. 20+ languages spoken on the continent, what could go wrong.. (I won't mention that that implies 20+ different ethnic/cultural groups cause goons hate thinking about that kind of thing) America has 2 languages spoken and 1 is by second class citizens with no power. And most other people assimilate overtime. We can't hope to understand their situation through the lens of "racism" Anyway this is largely an economic issue, so far.
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Jul 16, 2015 17:34
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Actually i take that back about the latinos having no political power. That seems to be changing realll fast. Landscapers Unions around the corner???
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Jul 16, 2015 17:38
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Tautologicus posted:Actually i take that back about the latinos having no political power. That seems to be changing realll fast. Landscapers Unions around the corner???
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Jul 16, 2015 17:39
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Another world war would be terrific. America would get rich selling Europeans guns to kill each other with, and then swoop in at the end to save the loving world. It'd be great And every building built in England since World War 2 has been ugly as poo poo. bomb all that poo poo to the ground and try again
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Jul 16, 2015 17:41
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concerned mom posted:Think about it like this. When the banks failed in 2007 was the mortgage crisis the sole fault of the people with mortgages? No, the lenders had to shoulder much of the guilt because they made irresponsible lends. Germany and France made irresponsible lends. Therefore it's only fair that Germany and France get the same justice that the bankers got. It's one thing to acknowledge that individuals may not behave rationally when dealing with loans and that it was in part the banks fault for giving loans to people they should have realized would have no ability to pay it back. But we're talking about an entire government here, I would expect the government to show better fiscal responsibility than random uneducated people who want a house and don't understand what an arm is.
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Jul 16, 2015 17:43
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ashgromnies posted:moussakalini
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Jul 16, 2015 17:44
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Europe to Greece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9e157Ner90
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Jul 16, 2015 17:46
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I haven't really followed the situation too closely but I don't really understand why people on SA largely seem to think predatory lending was the issue here. Could someone break it down for me?
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Jul 16, 2015 17:49
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Toadvine posted:My next question is: what could possibly be the alternative? This was the alternative. Broke as hell is guaranteed either way but they could devalue their currency if they controlled one and just tell creditors "yeah we can't pay it sorry. either come negotiate a haircut or we pay nothing". I guess Syriza didn't have the stones to tell Germany to go gently caress themselves since doing that was going to result in economic Armageddon at first and would have an unpredictable outcome. Easier to go with the slavery you are familiar with since the master will probably not let you die. He won a loving referendum though and still couldn't do it which is sad. Since the people just watched the left fail and sign up for some more austerity right after the people expressly said "gently caress that" I would not be surprised if the ultra right wing nationalists gain ground.  Currently they are lead by this guy but i dunno if he's up for being Gritler or Mussoliniki. Nuclearmonkee fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 17:52
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ArbitraryC posted:I haven't really followed the situation too closely but I don't really understand why people on SA largely seem to think predatory lending was the issue here. Could someone break it down for me? their parents lost their home due to bad lending and bills so they had to move into an apartment
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Jul 16, 2015 17:53
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ArbitraryC posted:I haven't really followed the situation too closely but I don't really understand why people on SA largely seem to think predatory lending was the issue here. Could someone break it down for me? It was dumb loans being lent by bankers on one side while the greeks lied and cooked the books on the other. regardless, the bankers lent money to people they shouldn't have and in beautiful modern capitalism it is not possible to default when this happens. this is extremely good because that means banks can lend money to literally anyone regardless of risk, collect interest (probably higher due to higher risk) while they can pay and when the debtor can't pay anymore just cry and get the government to either pay in their stead or force them to pay up
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Jul 16, 2015 17:55
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Nuclearmonkee posted:It was dumb loans being lent by bankers on one side while the greeks lied and cooked the books on the other. So like germany was loaning money directly to random private citizens or were they loaning money to the government itself? What hypothetically would have happened if they just didn't loan the money at all?
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Jul 16, 2015 17:59
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ArbitraryC posted:So like germany was loaning money directly to random private citizens or were they loaning money to the government itself? What hypothetically would have happened if they just didn't loan the money at all? The banks made the loans originally to the Greek government, but due to these bailouts the debt has been effectively transferred from banks to the European governments who bailed them out. If they weren't loaned the money the charade that the Greek economy was would have become obvious but generally you can always find somebody to lend you money if you are a government. Regardless, the bailouts weren't for Greece, they were for the European banks.
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Jul 16, 2015 18:00
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Nuclearmonkee posted:The bailouts weren't for Greece, they were for the banks. Sadly incredibly accurate, but enough about America. 
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Jul 16, 2015 18:02
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Nuclearmonkee posted:The banks made the loans originally to the Greek government, but due to these bailouts the debt has been effectively transferred from banks to the European governments who bailed them out. If they weren't loaned the money the charade that the Greek economy was would have become obvious but generally you can always find somebody to lend you money if you are a government. How is it not just greece that is at fault then? like with the mortgage crisis I can understand how you'd blame the banks for being predatory, they were well aware that many people would not fully understand the terms of the loan or be able to actually pay it. But we're talking about interacting with a government here, shouldn't you reasonably expect a government to handle loans responsibly? If they actively cooked their books to get more money then yeah I don't see a problem with the governments going to bat for their banks who were essentially defrauded.
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Jul 16, 2015 18:06
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ArbitraryC posted:shouldn't you reasonably expect a government to handle loans responsibly?
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Jul 16, 2015 18:08
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like engaging in 2 wars and cutting $2trillion in taxes so we do it all on credit? if they were responsible they wouldn't be collapsing... and who knows where we in the US end up in another few decades. our empire's just too big at the moment so we'll keep coasting as the biggest show in town for a little longer.
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Jul 16, 2015 18:09
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ArbitraryC posted:But we're talking about interacting with a government here, shouldn't you reasonably expect a government to handle loans responsibly? All I can say is lol. No. Interest is influenced by risk and the reason for that is that they are more likely to default so you charge more to your higher risk pool to make up for the ones in that pool who default. ArbitraryC posted:If they actively cooked their books to get more money then yeah I don't see a problem with the governments going to bat for their banks who were essentially defrauded. This is why the legal system exists. They are extorting money out of the Greek economy in order to pay off bad debt except by doing this they are further harming the Greek economy and making it less able to pay in the future. They are literally impoverishing the regular populace of Greece and destroying their health/pension system to the point that life expectancy is decreasing. Shadow posted:like engaging in 2 wars and cutting $2trillion in taxes so we do it all on credit? if they were responsible they wouldn't be collapsing... and who knows where we in the US end up in another few decades. our empire's just too big at the moment so we'll keep coasting as the biggest show in town for a little longer. We are the world's reserve currency and have a monstrous economy that actually makes things besides olive oil, wine and tourism. We can print a lot more money and inflate the debt away. A luxury that Greece doesn't have. Nuclearmonkee fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 18:22
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^^ when people tell me socialism doesn't work and use countries like Greece as the reason for it, that is exactly what I tell them. Greece's issue isn't socialism. They don't DO anything except tourism and complain about Turks and Albanians. Can't build an economy around that unless your military is enormous. --- Haven't been following that closely, but drat. I've said it before (I'm not an economist, but whatever), but the proper solution with bailouts is to bailout bottom up. Imagine if mortgage holders who couldn't pay their mortgages due to bad incomes and variable interest rates got bailed out with a path to get back on track or to gracefully lose the house? Sure "entitlements" but if mortgages continued getting paid and houses weren't going into foreclosure left and right, the banks would have kept lending to businesses and entire communities may not have gone under. Is this really a bad idea?
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Jul 16, 2015 18:26
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Shadow posted:^^ when people tell me socialism doesn't work and use countries like Greece as the reason for it, that is exactly what I tell them. Greece's issue isn't socialism. They don't DO anything except tourism and complain about Turks and Albanians. Can't build an economy around that unless your military is enormous. This is basically what happened in Greece except now the Germans and other Euro governments want their loan back. No one was or is willing to accept that the loans are bad and cannot be paid in full. Force creditors to take losses on bad loans. Obviously you don't let your banks collapse but ideally you have strong frameworks to prevent them from over-leveraging to the point that this is a risk (Which is hard because capitalism actively erodes institutions that do things like this  ). The idea that you can loan someone money, charge them based on their risk profile and then never actually accept any real risk since you can just have the government pay you off when the debtor can't is extremely hosed up. Just lend money to everyone and collect profits. Socialize the losses and hand them off to the government so taxpayers can cover your mistakes.
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Jul 16, 2015 18:33
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