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Dead Reckoning posted:"Were insufficiently diligent in preventing her suicide" is very different than what is implied by "she would not have committed suicide" or El C's "28 year old killed by police" both of which imply that she was actively murdered by law enforcement officers. Yes. All of these are possibilities. Any death in detention needs a serious investigation. However, if she was profiled and arrested and committed suicide while in jail, it's really likely that being arrested and put in jail contributed to her killing herself.
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Jul 17, 2015 00:00
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Most of the articles I've read strongly imply that the cause of death should not have been listed as suicide.
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Jul 17, 2015 00:02
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nm posted:Most of the articles I've read strongly imply that the cause of death should not have been listed as suicide. Yeah, but if we assume she killed herself we can blame the victim!
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Jul 17, 2015 00:04
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Genocide Tendency posted:
Just because you're completely uneducated on racial dynamics in the United States doesn't mean you're right.
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Jul 17, 2015 00:10
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I did a little digging and found that the Chief Medical Examiner has actually revised autopsy reports because he felt they favored the DA--he appears to be a good dude who wants neutrality in his reports. http://www.truthinjustice.org/patricia-moore.htm quote:A Houston Chronicle review of county records reveals at least two other cases in which Moore's supervisors revised her findings in autopsies on children. She was admonished once for appearing to show a bias in favor of prosecutors, and criticized for "not understanding the objectives of neutral medical-legal investigation."
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Jul 17, 2015 00:12
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nm posted:Most of the articles I've read strongly imply that the cause of death should not have been listed as suicide. Ah. Yes. The reporter who wrote the news story obviously has a better grasp on the cause of death than the coroner.  ElCondemn posted:Yeah, but if we assume she killed herself we can blame the victim! Point out the victim blaming.
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Jul 17, 2015 00:12
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chitoryu12 posted:Just because you're completely uneducated on racial dynamics in the United States doesn't mean you're right.  Point out how I am uneducated. Besides where I don't just parrot "gently caress the police".
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Jul 17, 2015 00:17
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Genocide Tendency posted:
Genocide Tendency posted:A white guy and a black woman get pulled over for the same reason. The white guy got pulled over for a traffic violation. The black woman got pulled over because of racism. This is impossible, right?
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Jul 17, 2015 00:19
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Genocide Tendency posted:
When you said 'a black person and a white person get pulled over for the same crime', you seem not to understand that the point is that black people get arrested (and prosecuted) at a much higher rate for crimes than whites do, and that the (usually small) disparities in the commision of crimes do not explain this. For example, white and black people use illegal drugs at about the same rate, but black people are way, way, way more likely to be arrested and prosecuted for that crime.
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Jul 17, 2015 00:20
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"Dammit, she said some rude things and (may or may not have) kicked me. Better show her who's boss!" *slams woman so hard into the ground she literally can't be compliant since her ears are ringing too loudly to listen to orders, then throws her in a jail with inadequate supervision where she somehow asphyxiates while in their care* Yeah, this is a justice system that is working as intended. Maybe that's the problem?
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Jul 17, 2015 00:23
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Genocide Tendency posted:Ah. Yes. The reporter who wrote the news story obviously has a better grasp on the cause of death than the coroner. Faked or lazy causes of death are certainly not unheard of, particularly when the police want it to go one way. Google Louis Pelfini for a high publiticy example where the opposite was done.
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Jul 17, 2015 00:27
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Genocide Tendency posted:Also, when you attack a cop, which kicking them qualifies, getting slammed to the ground is not just reasonable, but frankly what should happen. Personally I'm not crying over some idiot getting their face smashed to the sidewalk then tossed into lock up for attacking a cop. Really? So cops should have the right to assault anyone who swings/hits at them in any way regardless of force/regardless of whatever else they're doing?
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Jul 17, 2015 00:47
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The Mattybee posted:Really? So cops should have the right to assault anyone who swings/hits at them in any way regardless of force/regardless of whatever else they're doing? No, he's just a poster who is a voice in the choir of people in this country who think that *any* transgression deserves whatever punishment is meted out. Certainly you've come across these folks: "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" seems to be a favorite mantra of theirs. They particularly enjoy rattling their sabres when a person dies committing a crime that the state most certainly wouldn't have issued a death sentence over. They love violence that is issued forth from militaries/LE entities.
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Jul 17, 2015 00:53
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Genocide Tendency posted:
Are you a cop?
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Jul 17, 2015 00:53
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C2C - 2.0 posted:This is impossible, right? Apparently it is for you. Obdicut posted:When you said 'a black person and a white person get pulled over for the same crime', you seem not to understand that the point is that black people get arrested (and prosecuted) at a much higher rate for crimes than whites do, and that the (usually small) disparities in the commision of crimes do not explain this. For example, white and black people use illegal drugs at about the same rate, but black people are way, way, way more likely to be arrested and prosecuted for that crime. I understand there is a higher arrest rate for african americans. Never said there wasn't. The issue here is two people got pulled over for the same violation. One acted reasonable. The other kicked a cop. The reasonable individual got a verbal warning. The one who kicked a cop got their face slammed into the ground and rear end hauled off to jail. The Mattybee posted:Really? So cops should have the right to assault anyone who swings/hits at them in any way regardless of force/regardless of whatever else they're doing? Its not assault. Its use of force to apprehend an individual who is attacking a law enforcement officer. If she acted reasonable, got hauled out of her car through the window and thrown to the ground, then this is a problem with brutality. Instead, she kicked a cop and got hosed up for it. Which is exactly what should happen. Don't kick cops. Edit: Spun Dog posted:Are you a cop? Nope.
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Jul 17, 2015 01:06
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So how could a normal traffic stop lead to "kicking a cop"? Obviously she wasn't in her car at that point. The most likely reason for this is that the cop asked her to step out so he could cuff her. Putting on these handcuffs could easily have involved significant physical contact, especially if Bland felt like she was losing her balance and made an instinctive correction that touched a part of her leg to the officer. This becomes a kick, which depending on how the interaction had gone up until this point, gives the officer his excuse to exact some lawn justice. Or perhaps the officer got her on the ground first, and a squirming motion became the "kick". I realize this is just conjecture (no video of the critical moment, I'm not omniscient, etc.), but it's based on how people and police actually behave, and the explanation of a normally physical handcuffing makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than a woman storming out of her vehicle to start kicking at police. So that's why I'm just sighing at these posts saying that this "kick" must mean that she attacked a cop.
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Jul 17, 2015 01:07
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Genocide Tendency posted:
Again, you appear to be missing the point. We know that black people get arrested at a higher rate that is disproportionate with the amount of crime committed. This means that one of two things are true, which are functionally the same: White people are not being arrested because they are white, or black people are being arrested because they are black. That the crime is being committed in both cases is true, but for the disparity to exist, there has to be systemic, institutional racism. Does this help you understand?
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Jul 17, 2015 01:12
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Genocide Tendency posted:If she acted reasonable, got hauled out of her car through the window and thrown to the ground, then this is a problem with brutality. Instead, she kicked a cop and got hosed up for it. Which is exactly what should happen. Don't kick cops. Actually, you're pretty wrong on this.
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Jul 17, 2015 01:12
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Genocide Tendency posted:Its not assault. Its use of force to apprehend an individual who is attacking a law enforcement officer. Using the least amount of force required is a good thing. I'm glad we agr-- Genocide Tendency posted:Instead, she kicked a cop and got hosed up for it. Which is exactly what should happen. Don't kick cops. Oh. So "Yes, I want them to be injured, but I'm too much of a coward to say so".
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Jul 17, 2015 01:22
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Rory Bruce had to beat the suspect, he made an aggressive move! https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...-evidence.shtml Slager had to shoot Walter Scott, he was trying to grab his taser! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Walter_Scott Gee, why would anybody ever question what a cop says?
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Jul 17, 2015 01:24
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The Mattybee posted:Using the least amount of force required is a good thing. I'm glad we agr-- "If they didn't do anything wrong....then we can talk about brutality"...said everyone from Rodney King to Eric Garner.
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Jul 17, 2015 01:26
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C2C - 2.0 posted:"If they didn't do anything wrong....then we can talk about brutality"...said everyone from Rodney King to Eric Garner. We can scrutinize the victim down to the genetic level and vivisect his whole life from birth to find any dirt to justify his beating, but don't you DARE try and imply our brave heroes were anything but restrained and fearful of their lives and families when the baton-orgy beat this man for ten minutes.
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Jul 17, 2015 01:31
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Obdicut posted:Again, you appear to be missing the point. Actually no. What you have done is absolutely nothing to prove your point. Two people. Pulled over for the same reason. One is reasonable. Gets a warning. The second argues and kicks a cop. They get arrested. Thats how this breaks down. The Mattybee posted:Using the least amount of force required is a good thing. I'm glad we agr-- You're an idiot. Breaking up my quote and piece picking my words to call me a coward makes you a child.
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Jul 17, 2015 01:57
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Genocide Tendency posted:A white guy and a black woman get pulled over for the same reason. The white guy got pulled over for a traffic violation. The black woman got pulled over because of racism. You forgot the part that happens after the two different people are pulled over. The white guy is let off with a warning, not pulled over again for a couple months if not years. The black woman is arrested, fined several hundred dollars, and then pulled over again next week.
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Jul 17, 2015 01:58
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Where is the proof that she kicked the cop.
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Jul 17, 2015 02:00
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SedanChair posted:Where is the proof that she kicked the cop. Are you implying that a cop would lie to justify their actions? 
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Jul 17, 2015 02:01
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Genocide Tendency posted:Actually no. What you have done is absolutely nothing to prove your point. Okay, I'm not sure how to make it more clear for you. Let me put it another way, and see if you understand: Two people apply for a job. One named Jamal Jones, the other Robert Mitchum. Jamal Jones' application is rejected, Robert Mitchum's is accepted and he gets an interview. Now, you can't assume that in this case there is racism, however, you know that in general, people with black-sounding names are discriminated against in job applications. So, surmising that Jamal Jones was rejected because of his race is not weird or silly--it is backed up by statistical evidence. Likewise, surmising that this woman was pulled over because of her race, using the lane change as a pretext, is also backed up by statistical evidence--very strong statistical evidence. In addition, that she was charged because of her race is also backed up by statistical evidence. Use of force is a lot harder to get statistics on, but what we have indicates that black arrestees get violently restrained by police more often than white arrestees, controlling for resisting arrest. I'm not sure how to make this any clearer to you. In addition, you seem to think that smashing someone's face to the ground is an appropriate response to a cop being kicked. Can you clarify why you think this is so? If the cop has an opportunity to restrain the person without injuring them, isn't that a superior way of dealing with the situation, and if not, why not? Obdicut fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Jul 17, 2015 |
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Jul 17, 2015 02:01
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Dr Pepper posted:You forgot the part that happens after the two different people are pulled over. What were her actions when she got pulled over? Because the white man gave the officer his licence, registration and proof of insurance. Then answered the questions he was asked politely. He does so because getting pulled over is not new to him. This matters. SedanChair posted:Where is the proof that she kicked the cop. Where is the proof that cops killed her? Edit: Obdicut posted:
If someone has used violence against an officer (kicking qualifies as violence), that officer has the right to use force to subdue them. Injury can happen when an officer has to use force to subdue an individual. The person has demonstrated they are a physical threat. Asking them to cooperate has obviously failed at this point. Is it really that hard to understand? Genocide Tendency fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Jul 17, 2015 |
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Jul 17, 2015 02:06
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Genocide Tendency posted:What were her actions when she got pulled over? It doesn't matter what the black woman does. Being black is the reason for her treatment, not her behavior, not any crime she may or may not have committed.
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Jul 17, 2015 02:13
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Why was she out of her car?
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Jul 17, 2015 02:13
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Dr Pepper posted:I don't think you get how racism works. Did you miss the part where there are two people pulled over. One a white male, the other a black woman? For the same offence?
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Jul 17, 2015 02:14
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Genocide Tendency posted:Did you miss the part where there are two people pulled over. One a white male, the other a black woman? For the same offence? There are actually more than two people pulled over. A lot more. Genocide Tendency posted:
I agree they have the right, but that's not what you said. You said it was good for them to get their face smashed. Did you just misspeak? You seem to have skipped by entirely the further clarification of the whole 'black people get arrested proportionally more than they should' point. Do you understand it now? Obdicut fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Jul 17, 2015 |
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Jul 17, 2015 02:16
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Genocide Tendency posted:Did you miss the part where there are two people pulled over. One a white male, the other a black woman? For the same offence? So? Who cares? The point isn't individuals anyways. If you're black, it's statistically proven you're going to be pulled over more, harassed by police more, and and generally involved in the unpleasant aspects of the justice system. Even though, again, it's statistically proven that a black person doesn't commit crime at any greater rate then a white person.
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Jul 17, 2015 02:19
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Genocide Tendency posted:What were her actions when she got pulled over? So you're saying lack of proof is a problem for the supposed suicide, but not a problem for saying the woman kicked the cop? The only evidence in either situation is the cops' word for it, which is incredibly untrustworthy.
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Jul 17, 2015 02:36
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nm posted:Most of the articles I've read strongly imply that the cause of death should not have been listed as suicide. Its a town in butt gently caress Texas, I wouldn't put it past them to be buddy buddy with the coroner or to have arranged her suicide if she was too uppity or had something that could get them in trouble. We need police but I have seen far too much to trust them.
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Jul 17, 2015 03:01
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This just reminds me how if that poor kid that was "forgotten" by the DEA had actually killed himself, they probably could have just swept it under the rug as yet another suicide in custody.
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Jul 17, 2015 03:03
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Mandy Thompson posted:Its a town in butt gently caress Texas, I wouldn't put it past them to be buddy buddy with the coroner or to have arranged her suicide if she was too uppity or had something that could get them in trouble. We need police but I have seen far too much to trust them. I posted above an article about the medical examiner in the area rebuking and disciplining someone for being too pro-prosecution in autopsy reports, and changing the findings. This points to overall ethics on the part of that department, but it also does obviously mean individual coroners can indeed bring their personal politics into the autopsy.
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Jul 17, 2015 03:03
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Nothing.
Pohl fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Jul 17, 2015 |
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Jul 17, 2015 03:29
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Genocide Tendency posted:Where is the proof that cops killed her? Are you not going to answer?
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Jul 17, 2015 03:56
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Genocide Tendency posted:Breaking up my quote and piece picking my words to call me a coward makes you a child. I didn't "piece-pick" your words. You said that if she had "acted reasonable", it wouldn't have been okay, but since she 'kicked' the cop (and kick has a pretty wide variety of levels of force), it was perfectly acceptable and a Good Thing to you that she would get "hosed up". That's literally what you said. Those are the words that you typed. But you won't admit to us that you think criminals should be physically harmed, that they should suffer bodily for their failure to respect authority, because you are a coward. Genocide Tendency posted:If someone has used violence against an officer (kicking qualifies as violence), that officer has the right to use force to subdue them. Injury can happen when an officer has to use force to subdue an individual. There is a wide variety in "violence" and a wide variety of "force". It is possible for someone to be violent (or otherwise uncooperative) without needing to resort to "loving them up", as you were nice enough to put it. But hmm. I wonder if there are any other reasons why I might be calling you a dishonest coward? I wonder if you have a history of overly violent reactions. Genocide Tendency posted:Furries are too much of an emotional cripple to shoot a place up. Genocide Tendency posted:It's a shame Atticus ate a week long probie because have I got a story for her to drop on the ACAB thread in D&D.. Hmmm, yes. More than willing to spout racist poo poo back with the good ol' boys, and whining because nobody else will come post stuff for him. Yeah, I'm gonna go with "you're a big loving coward who can't even admit that he just wants to see 'bad people' get the poo poo beaten out of them".
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Jul 17, 2015 04:28
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