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Nasgate posted:Good game writing is forcing you to go on a revenge vendetta because some dumb girl died? Oh wait now that she's dead you have history! The motivation foe Dragonfall is not solely Monika. Monika CAN be a motivator for your character but above all else you have no real choice but to fight back because you're going to get hunted down like a dog like everyone else who's ever come in contact with the conspiracy if you don't. This becomes abundantly clear after the very first mission. Up til then you can reasonanly justify the Green Winters mission as getting what was owed to you. Tl;dr your reading comprehension is kinda garbage and you're actively refusing to engage with the game on its terms just to be different or something. Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Sep 2, 2015 |
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Sep 2, 2015 23:03
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Nasgate posted:Your relationship with Monica is central to the plot. If your pc doesn't care that much, there's no reason in the game to stick around with the reject runners and their stoic, idiotic fixer. well, besides the dragon who's painted a target on your rear end and demonstrated it's killing everyone who goes anywhere near Harfeld Manor. that might be worth addressing
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Sep 2, 2015 23:04
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At no point did it ever occur to me that Paul was in any way dislikable, though that might have been because I never started acting like a dumbass shitbird to him for no reason at all.
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Sep 2, 2015 23:21
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Nasgate posted:Your relationship with Monica is central to the plot. If your pc doesn't care that much, there's no reason in the game to stick around with the reject runners and their stoic, idiotic fixer. No no, I mean like, how does Dragonfall really succeed in its story in any way by letting you establish that one fact while Hong Kong fails? I see your relationship with Monica largely the same way as I see how you can decide why you left and went to corporate jail. You can pick a bunch of options and none of it matters. It's just something thrown in to make you feel a bit more invested in your character.
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Sep 2, 2015 23:29
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Rascyc posted:Yeah the amount of hoops people will internally jump through to maintain their suspension of disbelief that a game is completely good and without flaws is a little silly at times. Is it really so hard to believe many people did not like Paul the fixer? Doesn't mean you can't enjoy other aspects of the game usually but it's a fair criticism.  I'm guessing you don't mean to imply that disliking Paul is the correct opinion and he is actually badly written, but it really does come off that way. I can certainly accept that others might dislike him, but he's a way better fixer than Kindly since he actually gives over 90% of the proceeds of the runs to the team. You run with Kindly in HK because you needed her and she has connection, you run with Paul in DF because he actually acts like a friend and ally to the team and puts his own skin in the game. It's telling that of the core team members, Paul is probably the only one who could have just said, "You guys hosed up I'm not involving myself." and instead he puts all his liquid assets down to get you the chance to get the information you need. Ze Pollack posted:well, besides the dragon who's painted a target on your rear end and demonstrated it's killing everyone who goes anywhere near Harfeld Manor. no no no i'm just gonna go on the lam with no contacts it will be fine theyll never catch me sleeping in a storm drain.
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Sep 2, 2015 23:46
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Nasgate posted:Good game writing is forcing you to go on a revenge vendetta because some dumb girl died? Oh wait now that she's dead you have history! You're not forced to go on a 'revenge vendetta' in Dragonfall. That's just one of several possible motivations for your character. Your ideas for extending the intro would needlessly complicate and derail what I found to be a pretty effective opening -- the game provided a lot of leeway for the player to fill in their past with Monika, and that worked really well for me precisely because she had such limited screen time. If you haven't played HK yet, you might prefer the writing in it, since it gives you a pre-defined childhood, relationships with two of the game's major characters, and even basic character traits. Personally, I much preferred the writing in Dragonfall in that regard, where I felt like my character was much more my own creation than in HK.
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Sep 2, 2015 23:52
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Edit^^: My problem with the intro is that A-->B->C A: Monika dies B: You do something because she died. C: You develop a background with her. It's in a nonsensical order. They make you have a background with a character not only after you meet her, but after she dies. Ze Pollack posted:well, besides the dragon who's painted a target on your rear end and demonstrated it's killing everyone who goes anywhere near Harfeld Manor. Except if this was true, there's no reason the train ambush doesn't happen in the first mission. They know you don't know poo poo and don't start hunting you until you dig too deep. Sorry your reading comprehension is so bad, to quote another fool poster that can't read or come to logical conclusions. Supposing you're correct, Winters would've been dead way earlier. But thanks for trying. Also operating under your perception, the story is full of plot holes of why the hell half the cast are alive. Nasgate fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Sep 3, 2015 |
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Sep 2, 2015 23:55
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Nasgate posted:Except if this was true, there's no reason the train ambush doesn't happen in the first mission. Did you actually play the game? Winters is lives to poke at the conspiracy because the leader of the conspiracy is his brother who never wished for him to come to harm and is only killed by their malevolent matrix security AI. The ambush doesn't happen right away because of pacing bro, the whole point of that event is to remind you of who your ultimate enemies are after they haven't been featured for a while.
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Sep 3, 2015 00:00
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Just finished HK. I think I liked the pacing of DF a little bit more. The missions seemed a little meatier (in DF) and the DF's epilogue was really intriguing to me. At least I was expecting more than "good job ____! You did it!" My biggest gripe about HK is how the missions just don't have the same punch that DF missions had. Even the final boss went down in literally two character's actions because Poison Cloud did like 90+ damage and then Duncan finished him off. When I think about the APEX fight, that's more what I was hoping for and expecting. Still an impeccable game overall. Rascyc posted:Yeah the amount of hoops people will internally jump through to maintain their suspension of disbelief that a game is completely good and without flaws is a little silly at times. Is it really so hard to believe many people did not like Paul the fixer? Doesn't mean you can't enjoy other aspects of the game usually but it's a fair criticism. I actually think he was purposely written as kind of a sketchy character. I expected him to actually be the one to setup Monika and turning on me near the end. The fact he just ends up dying really caught me off guard.
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Sep 3, 2015 00:06
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akulanization posted:Did you actually play the game? Winters is lives to poke at the conspiracy because the leader of the conspiracy is his brother who never wished for him to come to harm and is only killed by their malevolent matrix security AI. The ambush doesn't happen right away because of pacing bro, the whole point of that event is to remind you of who your ultimate enemies are after they haven't been featured for a while. I'm going to ask you that same question. Vauclair knows nothing about his brother investigating things, he says as much himself And your latter point is arguing that the reason the ambush is when it is, is because it's a game? :jfc: It's because you have proven a threat and nuisance by this point.
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Sep 3, 2015 00:07
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I thought Hong Kong's story was way more emotional than Dragonfall. As you have this super long conversation with Duncan through out the game and you can choose to either repair the relationship somewhat or just be like nah gently caress it. Also I wish that they'd make a add on to make all 3 stories concurrent. It makes sense if you play the same character in each run .. sort of.
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Sep 3, 2015 00:09
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Nasgate posted:Edit^^: My problem with the intro is that A-->B->C no it isnt lmao have u ever read a book. literally any book. ever.
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Sep 3, 2015 00:10
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Nasgate posted:Edit^^: My problem with the intro is that A-->B->C I'm not a huge fan of how Monika operates in DF but this is the one aspect I do like. Your initial impression is that she's very good at what she does, if a little bit cocky, but it ultimately ends up biting her in the rear end. Most people in the kiez grieve for her and your impression of her starts to change. She helped people and it seemed to be the primary motivation for her shadowrunning. Then you talk to people like Lucky Strike (which I know is Director's Cut only) that point out an entire community's happiness shouldn't hinge on one person. Further development of Monika's character before she dies would be extremely long-winded and likely not very entertaining. Nasgate posted:Vauclair knows nothing about his brother investigating things, he says as much himself APEX. It had no oversight. fennesz fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Sep 3, 2015 |
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Sep 3, 2015 00:11
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"know what would open up this story? a boring and dull exposition on a character that wont live for more than 10 minutes of gameplay"
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Sep 3, 2015 00:12
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I'll be honest that beginning portion took me by surprise. I think my next run through will be Cyberwarrior with Implant Weapon / Rigger . Does CC skill affect Cyber Weapons? Hollismason fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Sep 3, 2015 |
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Sep 3, 2015 00:19
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anime was right posted:"know what would open up this story? a boring and dull exposition on a character that wont live for more than 10 minutes of gameplay" I've come to the conclusion that if the guy can't read what's handed to him on a plate in dragonfall he sure as hell can't read posts in this thread  In an unrelated note, it came to me: Hong Kong's biggest failing was not having a character as cool as Hasenkamp. We can only hope if they make a Director's Cut that they remedy this serious omission.
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Sep 3, 2015 00:43
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I'm curious does the Dragonfall director's cut add enough to content to make it worth playing?
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Sep 3, 2015 00:51
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anime was right posted:"know what would open up this story? a boring and dull exposition on a character that wont live for more than 10 minutes of gameplay" No exposition needed. Just a line or two of dialogue to explain how you know this dumbass. Instead you get flung headfirst into a braggart who displays a lack of tactical intelligence, a lack of information gathering(ironic since she's a face and a decker), and a lack of leadership. If you're going to force me to watch my character give a poo poo about a nobody getting themselves killed, make them somebody. Her death is impactless even though it's a major plot point.
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Sep 3, 2015 00:52
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Wow, this thread really took a turn for the goony over the last few pages. I like Shadowrun Returns and I don't care who knows it! It is a fun video game and as such I'll forgive it's minor literary shortcomings!
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Sep 3, 2015 00:54
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etalian posted:I'm curious does the Dragonfall director's cut add enough to content to make it worth playing? you mean "again, over DF regular?" or "at all ever?" Yes to both, I suppose.  DC adds a few nice quality of life improvements, some combat system improvements, and uh, three? four? new runs. New skills and gear for your squad (and you) and the like, better character interactions with your squad, etc. It also adds The Best Character, so of course it's worthwhile. If you already played HK you've already seen some - most - of the improvements (being able to level up your squad members) but DF having them is good. Make Blitz less bad! Finally give Eiger an assault rifle so she can shoot things at any range! Etc.
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Sep 3, 2015 00:55
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akulanization posted:
I think it's all passable, I don't really care I just play these games to blow poo poo up with my cybermagic and guns and a couple good laughs. Sometimes I see some dialog that is cool or a character I like but I see quite a bit of ho hum too.
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Sep 3, 2015 00:55
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Nasgate posted:No exposition needed. Just a line or two of dialogue to explain how you know this dumbass.     If this is a troll, well, good job I guess.
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Sep 3, 2015 01:01
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Psion posted:you mean "again, over DF regular?" or "at all ever?" Over the regular campaign, I finished it when it came out but never got around to replaying the directors cut version.
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Sep 3, 2015 01:02
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Nasgate what do you think about Mad Max: Fury Road? Did you think it was a good movie?etalian posted:Over the regular campaign, I finished it when it came out but never got around to replaying the directors cut version. yeah I'd replay it. It adds some good poo poo. Play as a different character archetype and you're good to go. If you liked HK it's worth replaying DF Director's Cut.
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Sep 3, 2015 01:03
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I'd rate every new mission in the Director's Cut, minus perhaps Eiger's, in the top half of Dragonfall missions. They are all really good.
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Sep 3, 2015 01:12
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Cape Cod Crab Chip posted:I'd rate every new mission in the Director's Cut, minus perhaps Eiger's, in the top half of Dragonfall missions. They are all really good. the new music tracks alone do wonders for them my favorite is probably Blitz's mission but that's partially because I feel like he needed the most attention and partially because of spoiler reasons.
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Sep 3, 2015 01:15
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The thing that threw me off with Dragonfall's story is that you're really more Monika's understudy than a part of the story in your own right. Like the party leader just got herself geeked and you're her replacement character. You spend most of the game trying to learn who she was and step into her shoes, and most of the victories you rack up after the attack are measures of 'How good a Monika were you?' And honestly, I feel like the whole story would have worked better if you were literally Monika and you survived the first manor run instead of her replacement. That was something I really appreciated about Shadowrun Hong Kong. You're not some blank slate replacement, you're Seattle. In your actions and responses to questions, you explore who Seattle is, and why they do what they do. If you weren't around, the story wouldn't work, because the story requires Seattle, and you are Seattle. Gunshow couldn't do your job. Nor can Gobbet or Is0bel. You're an important part of the story, not a bystander. Sure, it doesn't give you as much room to develop your character (though the mysterious 'after-I-got-out-of-corptanamo-bay' time you don't elaborate on directly helps), but if I'm looking to write a character of any kind that gets a starring role in the story, I play with a GM, because there's no substitute for having a real group of real people to storytell with. Video games can't compare, because they always have to balance 'Allowing you to fill in a blank slate character' with 'Making you relevant to the story', and I can forgive railroading in service to the latter.
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Sep 3, 2015 01:19
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Stuff like this Monica derail makes me glad the main thing I was annoyed about story wise in DF is someone showing up on your train ride to go "IT WAS ME THE WHOLE TIME teehee! " five seconds before the credits roll, just to make sure you got the memo you are not as cool and smart and good looking as he is despite your accomplishments
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Sep 3, 2015 02:03
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Pingcode posted:That was something I really appreciated about Shadowrun Hong Kong. You're not some blank slate replacement, you're Seattle. In your actions and responses to questions, you explore who Seattle is, and why they do what they do. If you weren't around, the story wouldn't work, because the story requires Seattle, and you are Seattle. Gunshow couldn't do your job. Nor can Gobbet or Is0bel. You're an important part of the story, not a bystander. Conversely, this is something that really annoyed me about the HK story -- I really didn't want to play as Seattle in a game set in Hong Kong. gently caress Seattle! Seattle is boring. Where Dragonfall was perfectly willing to accommodate my desire to play a native German character, in HK I was forced back into the tired role of foreigner.
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Sep 3, 2015 02:10
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im glad, that they are willing to have some variety with their storytelling decisions
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Sep 3, 2015 02:22
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Section Z posted:Stuff like this Monica derail makes me glad the main thing I was annoyed about story wise in DF is someone showing up on your train ride to go "IT WAS ME THE WHOLE TIME teehee! " five seconds before the credits roll, just to make sure you got the memo you are not as cool and smart and good looking as he is despite your accomplishments Every step in that conversation should've had *Perform a dismissive wanking motion*"as a choice, and it should have made him angrier and angrier set until he finally left in a huff, muttering about how much SMARTER dragons totally are and how you'd be showing him some respect if he had brought his authentic katana and who cares if some dumb shadowrunner doesn't want to listen to his master plan reveal.
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Sep 3, 2015 02:26
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Solid Jake posted:Every step in that conversation should've had *Perform a dismissive wanking motion*"as a choice, and it should have made him angrier and angrier set until he finally left in a huff, muttering about how much SMARTER dragons totally are and how you'd be showing him some respect if he had brought his authentic katana and who cares if some dumb shadowrunner doesn't want to listen to his master plan reveal. Yeah. I mean, there is a big difference between "And in the years to come, megacorps take over Berlin" in a text scroll. And- Showing up in person, on a filthy subway car, just to tell you "I am the puppetmaster! You are too dumb to comprehend the (in)significance of your own actions in freeing/killing a Dragon!" and then flouncing off. One is a perfectly reasonable example of "Shadowrun is SERIOUS, man!" setting dressing. The other is when your GM reminds you his favorite NPC totally could have soloed that campaign you just went through guys! Section Z fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Sep 3, 2015 |
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Sep 3, 2015 02:38
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Siding with the antagonist is the best Dragonfall ending anyways. gently caress you, dragons.
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Sep 3, 2015 02:48
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Vargs posted:Siding with the antagonist is the best Dragonfall ending anyways. gently caress you, dragons. Yeah, it was worth it to know you got that smug bastard.
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Sep 3, 2015 03:13
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Section Z posted:Stuff like this Monica derail makes me glad the main thing I was annoyed about story wise in DF is someone showing up on your train ride to go "IT WAS ME THE WHOLE TIME teehee! " five seconds before the credits roll, just to make sure you got the memo you are not as cool and smart and good looking as he is despite your accomplishments That was one of my favorite parts  Vargs posted:Siding with the antagonist is the best Dragonfall ending anyways. gently caress you, dragons. I still can't get down with straight up genocide. Though maybe I'm a fool for thinking that way.
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Sep 3, 2015 03:18
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fennesz posted:That was one of my favorite parts  We're deep in opinions chat here basically.quote:I still can't get down with straight up genocide. Though maybe I'm a fool for thinking that way. The history eraser button looks real tempting when you have bunch of assholes going "Haha, even if you were smart and cool enough to do anything about us, which you cant, without us rocks fall everyone dies. I DARE you to push it  "Basically, spite is a powerful motivator for an adventuring party. It's dumb as gently caress for the players to actually do it. But it's also dumb as gently caress to hook up the world taking it's ball and going home as an insurance policy in case your players are able to put one over on the setting bigshots, which is already nigh impossible without the plot itself handing it to you on a silver platter anyways. To put it in even nerdier terms. It's like saying "If you manage to beat Drizzt in a swordfight, the tarrasque awakens." and then having everyone constantly remind you how good at swords Drizzt is. Section Z fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Sep 3, 2015 |
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Sep 3, 2015 03:43
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This is why I prefer the option to save Feuerschwinge and let her go sleep it off. It's the one thing you can do that completely defies Lofwyr's expectations and stands a decent chance of loving up all his plans later down the line.
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Sep 3, 2015 03:57
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Section Z posted:Well, if you enjoyed it... that's okay. It is a video game Says you. Shadowrun is a setting that constantly goes on about how going pink mohawk is dumb and will just get you killed with nobody caring. When you're handed the option of suddenly flipping pink mohawk to inflict a huge lasting mark on the world, you take it because you're never going to have another chance.
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Sep 3, 2015 04:12
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Pingcode posted:Says you. Shadowrun is a setting that constantly goes on about how going pink mohawk is dumb and will just get you killed with nobody caring. When you're handed the option of suddenly flipping pink mohawk to inflict a huge lasting mark on the world, you take it because you're never going to have another chance. I think maybe global extinction of literally everyone and everything isn't in the spirit of pink mohawk. PS does anyone with more Shadowrun P&P knowledge than me know what the gently caress Leopard is supposed to symbolize? I need to know for my immersions. I gather that he's only really brought up in old as gently caress splatbooks.
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Sep 3, 2015 04:21
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Whats a fun build for dragonfall anyway? If I remember right stats dont matter at all for talking but etiquettes do.
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Sep 3, 2015 04:23
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