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Arglebargle III posted:OTOH not only are these solutions expensive, but there will be violence and crime associated with the refugee communities. There would be violence and crime in any area full of displaced people whatever their race, and to be frank Levant Arab culture is notorious for its toxic ideas of masculinity, rampant misogyny, and a weak sense of rule of law. Not lumping it in with Pashto or Gulf Arab culture which is inarguably worse in many respects but it's a reality. Acting like bending over backwards to be welcoming, lavishing money on model communities, and scrupulous political correctness will eliminate those problems is a mistake is the only salient point these blood-and-fatherland people make. Even with good policy, this is a humanitarian crisis that is going to leave everybody materially worse off than they were at least in the short term, because it is a disaster and requires resources to manage. Except for the people in states that close their borders. On the other hand, most things worth doing are expensive, states exist for the purpose of spending collective money on collective endeavors of worth, regardless of what their leaders may believe. That is their only justifiable purpose. People are already dying to violence and crime, and it does not become more acceptable because it's happening to other people. The goal must be to reduce that suffering, and to secure a good life for as many as possible. That is more achievable through integration than shooting everyone who turns up at the border.
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Sep 6, 2015 21:21
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Hob_Gadling posted:This is an excellent post. Unfortunately I do not think either side will believe you, and the world will be worse off for it. What? Huh? Actually, I've always thought that if the goal is reducing human suffering, surely swift death is the most efficacious policy? Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Sep 6, 2015 |
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Sep 6, 2015 21:23
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Arglebargle III posted:OTOH not only are these solutions expensive, but there will be violence and crime associated with the refugee communities. There would be violence and crime in any area full of displaced people whatever their race, and to be frank Levant Arab culture is notorious for its toxic ideas of masculinity, rampant misogyny, and a weak sense of rule of law. Not lumping it in with Pashto or Gulf Arab culture which is inarguably worse in many respects but it's a reality. Acting like bending over backwards to be welcoming, lavishing money on model communities, and scrupulous political correctness will eliminate those problems is a mistake is the only salient point these blood-and-fatherland people make. Even with good policy, this is a humanitarian crisis that is going to leave everybody materially worse off than they were at least in the short term, because it is a disaster and requires resources to manage. Except for the people in states that close their borders. It is a fair point, I don't doubt that there will be some crime coming out of traumatized marginalized people. It will require patience, not allowing the entire group to be tarred with the same brush if a few knuckleheads start poo poo, and continued efforts to include people from those communities in societies while allowing them to also express their uniqueness. It shouldn't be that big a deal if their culture influences another. That is the sensation of ignorance fading away.
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Sep 6, 2015 21:43
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Arglebargle III posted:Huh? If something happened to your government or your society collapsed, would you feel it was fair for another government to kill you for the sake of not inconveniencing nationalistic jerks with authoritarian personalities?
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Sep 6, 2015 21:46
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Arglebargle III posted:What? One side will continue to be against all changes in policy, other will continue to be naive. Certainly we could do better than that? e: or to write it out more clearly, I thought the post was a good insight into the current divide we have. One side is against letting people come at all, one is willing to do the humane thing but seems so very blue-eyed about it. I don't think these two groups are willing to budge from their trenches, though. Hob_Gadling fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Sep 6, 2015 |
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Sep 6, 2015 21:46
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RE: segregation and insular communities. It's a huge thing in the Twin Cities between Hmong communities back in the day, Somalis now, and whomever might be next. I guess our Karen population is growing. Frankly, it stinks to hear the attitudes of people towards the Somali people. I'm sure it hasn't helped with the recruiting for ISIS that's been happening, especially in the lower-class neighborhoods. Anyway, don't be dicks to people.
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Sep 6, 2015 21:49
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Arglebargle III posted:Actually, I've always thought that if the goal is reducing human suffering, surely swift death is the most efficacious policy? Well yes but you would need to be able to wipe out all life on the planet with that, otherwise the social impact would probably be more deleterious than letting people live. If you reach the point where it's OK to machinegun refugees on the basis that it will serve greater utility, while you are correct in a vacuum, it will probably swiftly become OK to machinegun a lot of other people until you have a fascist dictatorship.
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Sep 6, 2015 21:50
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In related news, the EU announces a new forest fire management policy using lessons learned from the current migrant crisis; citizens mandated to strap burning logs to their vehicle roofs, and bring them home to their usually empty fireplaces. The policy was fast tracked after photos of a singed squirrel made the rounds on social media.
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Sep 6, 2015 22:07
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Stop the Squirrels. - Tony Abbot Prime Minister of Kuwait.
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Sep 6, 2015 22:19
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Dead kids must be re-positioned for maximum emotional impact. Who do you think could be behind such manipulation? 
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Sep 6, 2015 22:19
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Unknown Dyne posted:Dead kids must be re-positioned for maximum emotional impact. Who do you think could be behind such manipulation? I fail to see the relevance.
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Sep 6, 2015 22:27
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That's his brother, I believe. Edit: grammar, tone MothraAttack fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Sep 6, 2015 |
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Sep 6, 2015 22:31
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MothraAttack posted:That's his brother, I believe. god forbid you have a harsh tone on the forums that released tribute.avi to rave reviews 3 days after 9/11
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Sep 6, 2015 22:51
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Sep 6, 2015 22:56
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Unknown Dyne posted:god forbid you have a harsh tone on the forums that released tribute.avi to rave reviews 3 days after 9/11 actually this is consistent with SA's longstanding "kill whitey" policy
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Sep 6, 2015 23:16
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MothraAttack posted:That's his brother, I believe. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34150364 quote:Speaking at the burial for his wife and sons, Alan Kurdi's father Abdullah said: "I have no future any more. My future is gone." Wow, debunking that bullshit was really loving easy, wasn't it? fade5 fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Sep 6, 2015 |
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Sep 6, 2015 23:26
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c4Rvz5stHE
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Sep 6, 2015 23:26
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drat look at all em darkies about to soil our women.
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Sep 6, 2015 23:31
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RIP Europe
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Sep 6, 2015 23:46
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The Kyle Reese Terminator speech, really? I favor the now out of fashion idea of a 'melting pot' but come the gently caress on.
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Sep 6, 2015 23:49
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OwlFancier posted:Well yes but you would need to be able to wipe out all life on the planet with that, otherwise the social impact would probably be more deleterious than letting people live. I'm not seeing a hole in my logic here.
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Sep 6, 2015 23:56
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http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape
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Sep 7, 2015 00:11
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This is basically neonazi propaganda meant to demonize people of color as savage rioters Guess they have never seen white college kids after their team loses. If you want barbarism, you need look no further than European and American actions in the middle east. These people are knocking over some cars. Europeans and Americans blow up cities, destroy entire economies, act as economic hitmen so that they can loot the resources of less powerful or less organized states. Western capitalism loves dictatorships because they are easy to work with and are good at imposing repugnant working conditions on people, and violent tactics against unions that western workers will no longer tolerate. Europe is the real predator. Mandy Thompson fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 00:22
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 Sweden has a broad definition of what constitutes rape, which means crimes that would be reported as lesser sexual crimes in other countries get reported as rape. Additionally, Police in Sweden have to record each instance of rape as a separate case, which means that if somebody comes to the police and says their husband raped them every day for 100 days, that's 100 separate cases of rape reported vs somewhere like the US where it would be reported as one case & one instance of rape. Swedish police are also much better at identifying & reporting rape than other police forces, and it's been shown in studies that when you improve gender equality, more people feel comfortable coming forward about sexual violence towards them. Sweden's number of rapes per capita appears so large because they're one of the few countries - if not arguably the only country - that reports actual occurrences of rape & sexual violence so well.
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Sep 7, 2015 00:34
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Might aswell have post this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNS-bIYcJR0 Surprisingly good voice on that nazi. (nazess???)
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Sep 7, 2015 00:43
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drat, thats some neonazi/pol/ poo poo right there. did this kind of outrage happen during all those disporias in the 19th century.
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Sep 7, 2015 01:48
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It's a little bit amazing that some people on the left will leap to defend rape as long as it's committed by the right people.
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Sep 7, 2015 02:20
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Arglebargle III posted:It's a little bit amazing that some people on the left will leap to defend rape as long as it's committed by the right people. Do you think somebody defended rape in this thread? Or maybe examined the evidence beyond screaming headlines?
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Sep 7, 2015 04:11
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Arglebargle III posted:It's a little bit amazing that some people on the left will leap to defend rape as long as it's committed by the right people. huh? Where?
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Sep 7, 2015 04:30
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Hob_Gadling posted:One side will continue to be against all changes in policy, other will continue to be naive. Certainly we could do better than that? I think you are wrong. I feel like the current argument is between "ignore/kill them all" and "this requires a humanitarian response" with no room left over for minutiae at the moment.
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Sep 7, 2015 04:34
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Sydin posted:
Mandy Thompson posted:huh? Where? khwarezm posted:Do you think somebody defended rape in this thread? Tell me this is not an argument that rape isn't a very big deal, and we shouldn't worry about rape or how many women are raped in/by migrant communities. "Look, there will be some growing pains as these communities adjust and your rape really, well, I don't want to say it doesn't matter but it's been overreported, see? Look, white nationalists are expressing concern over your rape, and that really tells you all you need to know, doesn't it?" How far away is this from "legitimate rape"?
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Sep 7, 2015 05:04
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Arglebargle III posted:Tell me this is not an argument that rape isn't a very big deal, and we shouldn't worry about rape or how many women are raped in/by migrant communities. "Look, there will be some growing pains as these communities adjust and your rape really, well, I don't want to say it doesn't matter but it's been overreported, see? You're right, my pointing out that factors leading to an environment that makes women more comfortable with reporting rape to the police & Sweden's differing statistical gathering methods for reporting rape cause Sweden to appear to have many more rapes when compared side by side to other nations is me jumping to the defense of rape. Bravo, you've thrown the veil of my scheme to allow a storm of refugees to flood Europe and rape its women aside. My hat's off to you, sir! Here's another one: Rape is the most under reported crime in the United States, only 36% of rapes are reported to the police. Sweden doesn't actually have more rapes than other developed countries - as you'd have seen if you'd read any of what you replied to - the improved gender equality in Sweden leads to women feeling more comfortable with approaching the police about actual or attempted rape. Yes, rape is absolutely horrible in all situations, but you can't compare Sweden's numbers straight to another countries and claim that it's proof that some sea of immigrants are raping their way through Sweden when their reporting rates, stats gathering, and (thankfully!) broader definition of what actually constitutes rape are different from others. Since you apparently have the reading comprehension of a seven year old and I fully expect to be called a rape apologist again for your no doubt stellar counter argument, let me spell this out for you: rape is one of those special kinds of evil that is wrong in all circumstances. Period. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Rape is always wrong, in all circumstances.
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Sep 7, 2015 05:23
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Arglebargle III posted:Tell me this is not an argument that rape isn't a very big deal, and we shouldn't worry about rape or how many women are raped in/by migrant communities. "Look, there will be some growing pains as these communities adjust and your rape really, well, I don't want to say it doesn't matter but it's been overreported, see? More reported rapes does not necessarily equal more rapes. I have other friends/acquaintances who were sexually harassed and threatened with rape (and in some cases, I'm pretty sure literally raped, too, but I didn't feel like prying on a rather unpleasant subject). One of these incidents actually happened during an international student contest in Hungary and was never reported to the police. There is no statistic anywhere showing what happened to her (just like there's no statistic saying that my friend who visited Sweden was threatened with rape). If this were reported, it would have made either Serbia or Hungary (depending whether you go by location or by nationality) look more rapey, despite the fact that it not being reported is a rather bad thing. I believe the friend who was in Sweden, and her experience means that something went horribly wrong somewhere, and the underlyign reason needs to be figured out and dealt with, but holy poo poo, the refugees are not a big pile of rapists charging in to grab the womenfolk. And this is running into my personal pet peeve of dudes using discrimination against women, which they rarely fully understand, as a political weapon in an unrelated fight (And I fully admit the  here. But at least I try to talk to friends who experienced it in order to learn more about it, and the things I hear and the things people protesting about rapey immigrants say are very different). The best comparison to this would be how US D&D goons feel when Republicans use Vilerat's death to further their aims in a political debate. Yes, there is gonna be a heckuva lot of misogyny coming from a statistically larger number of refugees compared to the locals. But you know who's going to suffer from it the most, by far? Women refugees. Punishing all the refugees for misogyny of some refugees is literally the worst thing you could do to deal with it. my dad fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 05:40
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Sydin posted:Since you apparently have the reading comprehension of a seven year old and I fully expect to be called a rape apologist again for your no doubt stellar counter argument, let me spell this out for you: rape is one of those special kinds of evil that is wrong in all circumstances. Period. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Rape is always wrong, in all circumstances. Counter argument to what? Arglebargle III posted:What? Mandy Thompson posted:huh? Where?
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Sep 7, 2015 05:47
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my dad posted:I believe the friend who was in Sweden, and her experience means that something went horribly wrong somewhere Unverifiable, anecdotal evidence usually mean poo poo all, actually.
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Sep 7, 2015 06:00
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Cake Smashing Boob posted:Unverifiable, anecdotal evidence usually mean poo poo all, actually. To you, person on the internet, yes. To me, someone who actually knows her, no.
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Sep 7, 2015 06:03
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I don't think Europe or England understand what true Diversity, Tolerance, or Common Sense means anymore and that this whole endeavor is going to fail miserably. But not that I care. I'm a American. gently caress the pissant little Europeons. Seen so many people compare this event to the growth in France from immigrants and people pointing to that failure as a reason it can never worked all while ignoring how loving insular French society is in the first place and how loving xenephobic their culture is from the outset. Diversity sure as gently caress isn't going to mean accepting every little cultural standard or tradition - these things are supposed to meld: the best traits of one, the best traits of another, into a overall national identity. Europeans like to treat it completely differently. They are so drat insular and cling so much to their antiquated meaningless kings, queens, old rulers, tea time, lovely languages, nude broads in their loving newspapers, sports traditions, food, drink, and so on that they'd never give a chance for that to happen. So things will be segregated from the get-go. Which means it simply will not work. I mean I'd love this to happen for all the refugees to settle down, integrate into society, the national identity and culture to meld to where Hummus, Tabbouleh, and Shawarma became part of the standard national cuisine. But the rise of the european right means there is only going to be violence, discrimination, hate, and hate crimes for the far forseeable future and the effects of those people, and their political policies will ensure any kind of proper cultural fusion is impossible. Any Muslim thinking of going to Europe in this day and age should think twice about the likelihood of having his whole family hacked down with an axe by a neo-nazi crazy. I don't understand why we can't just do massive airlifts of refugees to the richer arab states and laugh at them if they try to stop us. PerpetualSelf fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 06:26
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Also the United States biggest mistake in Syria was their failure to commit to Assad and propup one of the few remaining Secular states in the Middle East. Secular Democracy which in 90s seemed inevitable in the middle east is now a pipe dream. They committed the same mistake in taking out Saddam Hussein. The only hope for secular states in the Middle East post-bush is via dictatorship whether you like that or not. The final result of the Syrian war will be a Secular Dictatorship or Sharia law of some form. There is zero hope for secular democracy in the Middle East.
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Sep 7, 2015 06:35
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8/10 Taking 2 point off because your second post made the troll too obvious.
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Sep 7, 2015 06:38
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PerpetualSelf posted:But not that I care. I'm a American. gently caress the pissant little Europeons. Seen so many people compare this event to the growth in France from immigrants and people pointing to that failure as a reason it can never worked all while ignoring how loving insular French society is in the first place and how loving xenephobic their culture is from the outset. Weren't you pretending to be Colombian just like a day ago in the Venezuelan thread?
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Sep 7, 2015 06:55
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