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Yes this is all very interesting let us patch over these disagreements with TIC, you guys are not even remotely talking about MK Zoabi's article anymore, which is funny cause there are some somewhat relevant things to say about her PoV and the apparently religiously hardliner stance taken by the Balad party members even though they are members of a secular party whose stated goal is to turn Israel into a true democracy for all of it's citizens, it seems rather noteworthy that the members of this party would suddenly decide to make such divisive statements about the nature of the temple mount. I wonder whether MK Dr. Aymen Odeh is pleased with these statements. Anyway, someone on facebook just linked this: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/top-pm-aide-gaza-plan-aims-to-freeze-the-peace-process-1.136686 note that this article is from 2004 and quotes a senior advisor to Ariel Sharon, it explains the logic of the disengagement and illuminates why a someone as hawkish and "greater israel"ish as Sharon was willing to withdraw troops.
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Oct 4, 2015 11:14
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The Insect Court posted:Of course you are. If it's an unintentional misunderstanding I'd suggest briefly familiarizing yourself with the religious significance of the Temple Mount in Judaism so you can stop responding as if this is just a bunch of uppity Jews barging into a random mosque and demanding to be allowed to use it. Uh well the ban on non-Muslim prayer is enforced by the Israeli government, so I guess now the government of Israel itself are evil anti-semites making sure Jews don't get too uppity? 
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Oct 4, 2015 11:41
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VitalSigns posted:Uh well the ban on non-Muslim prayer is enforced by the Israeli government, so I guess now the government of Israel itself are evil anti-semites making sure Jews don't get too uppity? Pointing out a reductio ad absurdum doesn't work if there are a significant number of people who do in fact believe in the absurdo 
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Oct 4, 2015 11:44
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VitalSigns posted:the government of Israel itself are evil anti-semites Unironically this
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Oct 4, 2015 12:25
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Things don't look too great in Jerusalem and in the west bank, there were numerous lynching attempts against Palestinians in Jerusalem yesterday, one of them resulted in an apparent ex-judicial execution of the fleeing victim by Israeli police officers: https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/video-death-chanting-israeli-mob-rejoices-palestinian-teen-executed All the while Bennet and his party of brown shirts are trying to re-gain their lost knesset seats by claiming Netanyahu is too soft on terror and demanding that the IDF will commence "Operation Defensive Shield II" in the west bank to 'annihilate the hamas infrastructure' (please ignore the fact that according to official Shin Bet reports there is no Hamas infrastructure in the west bank), all the while calling for more settlements to be built, cause the best way to protect jewish lives is to send jews to live in the wild west bank or something, cause that just works great, whatever. And the brown shirts in general are going crazy over here, even during Protective Edge I didn't encounter so many death threats against leftists on facebook, it seems like a somewhat unprecedented wave of nationalistic fervor, under this political climate poo poo could really hit the fan.
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Oct 4, 2015 17:16
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Things don't look too great in Jerusalem and in the west bank, there were numerous lynching attempts against Palestinians in Jerusalem yesterday, one of them resulted in an apparent ex-judicial execution of the fleeing victim by Israeli police officers: https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/video-death-chanting-israeli-mob-rejoices-palestinian-teen-executed
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Oct 4, 2015 18:06
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Yes this is all very interesting let us patch over these disagreements with TIC, you guys are not even remotely talking about MK Zoabi's article anymore, which is funny cause there are some somewhat relevant things to say about her PoV and the apparently religiously hardliner stance taken by the Balad party members even though they are members of a secular party whose stated goal is to turn Israel into a true democracy for all of it's citizens, it seems rather noteworthy that the members of this party would suddenly decide to make such divisive statements about the nature of the temple mount. I wonder whether MK Dr. Aymen Odeh is pleased with these statements. It's not like Sharon hadn't massively changed his position multiple times. He made a genuine commitment towards peace in his final term. He also, and this is very important, was principled and honest unlike Netanyahu.
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Oct 4, 2015 19:43
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VitalSigns posted:Uh well the ban on non-Muslim prayer is enforced by the Israeli government, so I guess now the government of Israel itself are evil anti-semites making sure Jews don't get too uppity? Why, that would be a downright silly argument to make VitalSigns! You can make a strong argument on pragmatic grounds that Jews should be completely barred from exercising their freedom of worship at what is the holiest site in Judaism. But someone making that argument is taking a very different approach than someone doing "Jews on the Temple Mount? Why on earth would they want to pray in a mosque? Must be colonialists  " playacting.
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Oct 4, 2015 20:15
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The Insect Court posted:Why, that would be a downright silly argument to make VitalSigns! You can make a strong argument on pragmatic grounds that Jews should be completely barred from exercising their freedom of worship at what is the holiest site in Judaism. Mainstream Orthodox Judaism, even in Israel, actually forbids Jews from praying at the Temple Mount, though. The freedom you are talking about is that of fanatical, apocalyptic Jews to express their desire to bring about the Third Temple by removing a current Muslim house of worship and its inhabitants. Israel has already removed an entire neighborhood (the Moroccan Quarter) just after the Six Day War, to make room for what is now the Wailing Wall Promenade. I'd say the status quo has been as equitable as one can maintain it considering the hostility between the people involved.
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Oct 4, 2015 20:25
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The Insect Court posted:But someone making that argument is taking a very different approach than someone doing "Jews on the Temple Mount? Why on earth would they want to pray in a mosque? Must be colonialists Are you physically capable of posting in this thread without making spurious accusations of anti-Semitism or wilfully misrepresenting other people's posts?
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Oct 4, 2015 21:29
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The Insect Court posted:Why, that would be a downright silly argument to make VitalSigns! You can make a strong argument on pragmatic grounds that Jews should be completely barred from exercising their freedom of worship at what is the holiest site in Judaism. Dude, 99% of us follow the belief that Temple Mount isn't FOR us without the son of god leading the way. It's GOING to be the holiest site in the faith...later...whenever that whole thing goes down, but right now nah man.
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Oct 4, 2015 22:20
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aphKsyPfmI Not sure if you can watch the full movie anywhere (and it would probably be  I couldn't link regardless) but still. Good flick, well worth checking out.
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Oct 4, 2015 22:38
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Xander77 posted:Huh. Reasonably sure that picture was taken at the Hebrew U. Wonder if he was a student there. Certainly not going to help the whole "shut up with your whiny left wing moralizing, all your Arab students are terrorists" angle (which, yeah, is heard quite often) Pretty sure at 1:07-1:09 in the second video you can hear someone shouting 'friend of the family dead' Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Oct 4, 2015 |
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Oct 4, 2015 22:57
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Dude, 99% of us follow the belief that Temple Mount isn't FOR us without the son of god leading the way. It's GOING to be the holiest site in the faith...later...whenever that whole thing goes down, but right now nah man. Why do you keep blathering on about the son of god, I'm an atheist and I know that's an exclusively Christian concept. The Jewish notion of a messiah is very different. And also Jewish pluralism is a thing, so people who have never seen the inside of a synagogue shouldn't blather on about how the state of Israel is against true Judaism because Satmar said so or whatever when they otherwise disagree with 99% of what those crazy people think.
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Oct 5, 2015 00:45
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Kim Jong Il posted:Why do you keep blathering on about the son of god, I'm an atheist and I know that's an exclusively Christian concept. The Jewish notion of a messiah is very different. And also Jewish pluralism is a thing, so people who have never seen the inside of a synagogue shouldn't blather on about how the state of Israel is against true Judaism because Satmar said so or whatever when they otherwise disagree with 99% of what those crazy people think. I was using the simplest terms I could to show how stupid the idea that 'some randos who want to bulldoze a mosque' is interchangeable and that's the most common connotations of that word. Yes pluralism is indeed a thing, my point was his constant insistence that the location was one of the holiest sites as if it's true for everyone is absurd.
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Oct 5, 2015 00:53
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Kim Jong Il posted:Why do you keep blathering on about the son of god, I'm an atheist and I know that's an exclusively Christian concept. The Jewish notion of a messiah is very different. And also Jewish pluralism is a thing, so people who have never seen the inside of a synagogue shouldn't blather on about how the state of Israel is against true Judaism because Satmar said so or whatever when they otherwise disagree with 99% of what those crazy people think. His point was completely understandable. From my understanding going from the thread, Many (most?) jewish sects do not see the temple mount as holy until the jews ascend it with the messiah. Similar to how Israel wasn't holy for existing, but because it would be a nation willingly created by the native citizens who would convert of their own free will in reverence of the messiah. Its like if Jesus didnt exist yet, but X years from now he will be crucified in a specific plot, and you were to consider that plot 100% holy ground despite nothing of importance happening yet (and the effects of these mortals possibly resulting in Future Hypothetical Roman Empire crucifying him in a different area, but I'm not jewish so I don't know how concrete-fatalist the religion is).
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Oct 5, 2015 01:03
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My understanding is that everyone sees it as the holiest place, to the point that the general prohibition on visiting is to protect against accidentally trampling the ancient spot where the Holy of Holies supposedly stood.
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Oct 5, 2015 01:08
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The Insect Court posted:Why, that would be a downright silly argument to make VitalSigns! You can make a strong argument on pragmatic grounds that Jews should be completely barred from exercising their freedom of worship at what is the holiest site in Judaism.  So you agree with the status quo after all, well this was worthless
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Oct 5, 2015 01:11
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Kim Jong Il posted:My understanding is that everyone sees it as the holiest place, to the point that the general prohibition on visiting is to protect against accidentally trampling the ancient spot where the Holy of Holies supposedly stood. Yes, there are different levels of holy sites. For most people it's holy in the sense of 'yea dude don't go gently caress that up' which means, ya know, we don't go hang out there or even pray there because until someone pulls out a red heifer to offer up we're not worthy. To the minority that TIC is acting like is the majority it's holy in the sense that we visit it and make use of it and all. We don't have any divine mandate to go mess up the area, the claims of the small fringe that do feel they have that mandate is often a political claim as well, because oh gee whiz it just happens to also involve a mandate to knock down the mosques and poo poo and reinstate the old 'no outsiders may enter' rules. Basically I know I'm not being clear (blame beer and baseball) but the temple site is 'holy' in the sense that it has a divine purpose to play, later, and yea you're right the ban is mainly 'so ya know don't go up there and throw your Cliff bar wrappers and poo poo, that'd look pretty tacky' but the group we're talking about views it as holy in the sense that it's ours now and everyone get the gently caress off it God said so. Both are reverent views, but one is more longterm and the other is more right now (with heavy political implications). That's where TIC's bullshit 'people are saying why are Jews praying in a mosque' argument came from, because until the temple is rebuilt and all that jazz we don't have a use for it other than a general preservationist role to keep it from getting messed up. Funny enough the guys with a mosque there ALSO would like it not to be messed up, so basically as long as we respect their wishes of 'hey stop coming here acting like your plan is to start rebuilding the temple early' the place will probably be kept up fine. Ya know, brotherhood and unity through respecting eachother's faith, that whole thing.
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Oct 5, 2015 01:29
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Kim Jong Il posted:My understanding is that everyone sees it as the holiest place, to the point that the general prohibition on visiting is to protect against accidentally trampling the ancient spot where the Holy of Holies supposedly stood. It's more than just that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount#Jewish_religious_law_concerning_entry_to_the_site But yeah it's the holiest place and the such.
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Oct 5, 2015 01:30
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The Insect Court posted:Great, you've got me convinced we shouldn't dynamite the Dome of the Rock and break ground on a Third Temple like the lunatics want. It's the official rabbinical position that Jwws should not step on the Temple Mount till the time of the Third Temple. Kim Jong Il posted:And also Jewish pluralism is a thing, so people who have never seen the inside of a synagogue shouldn't blather on about how the state of Israel is against true Judaism because Satmar said so or whatever when they otherwise disagree with 99% of what those crazy people think. Not in Israel, it isn't!
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Oct 5, 2015 02:36
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Yes, desperate Likud pays lip service to the idiot Haredim and the superstitious children in Shas, and the other Modern Orthodox are pretty terrible in their own right. They all tend to be horrible about completely different things though.
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Oct 5, 2015 03:28
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Kim Jong Il posted:Yes, desperate Likud pays lip service to the idiot Haredim and the superstitious children in Shas, and the other Modern Orthodox are pretty terrible in their own right. They all tend to be horrible about completely different things though. You've done nothing to address why you think it's racist to assert that religiously-defined Jews shouldn't have access to pray on Alharam Assharif.
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Oct 5, 2015 09:12
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The Insect Court posted:Why, that would be a downright silly argument to make VitalSigns! You can make a strong argument on pragmatic grounds that Jews should be completely barred from exercising their freedom of worship at what is the holiest site in Judaism. Being that the land belongs to Jordan, they have every right to decide what is done with it.
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Oct 5, 2015 09:15
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Hong XiuQuan posted:You've done nothing to address why you think it's racist to assert that religiously-defined Jews shouldn't have access to pray on Alharam Assharif. You're naive to think that this is a solely religious matter. They're attempting to permanently forbid visitors of a certain ethnicity. It's also racist to deny the Jewish history of the site.
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Oct 5, 2015 13:34
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An apartheid nation instituting further segregation, what a surprise. Once in a blue moon it might bite the other way too.
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Oct 5, 2015 13:44
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Kim Jong Il posted:You're naive to think that this is a solely religious matter. They're attempting to permanently forbid visitors of a certain ethnicity. It's also racist to deny the Jewish history of the site. Again, do you think that she wants Jewish Muslims to be forbidden from praying there?
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Oct 5, 2015 15:15
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I think she and her party members have decided it's a brilliant idea to play Jr. Historical Revisionists and deny established archeological facts concerning the site, MK Zoabi's statements are somewhat ambiguous as she only goes as far as claiming that Jews have nothing to seek on top of the mount which can also be understood as an appeal to jewish rabbinical authority but given the statements of her fellow Balad party members Jamal Zahalka and Ahmed Tibi on the subject "There is no such thing as 'the temple mount' only the Al Aqsa mosque" I think it's a bit naive to deduce that her statements strictly refer to the jewish prohibition itself but rather continues the line her fellow party members have drawn. Here I was thinking that the site of Solomon's Mosque was considered to be the site of 'the furthest mosque' from the night journey, which would mean that Islamic tradition conforms with the notion that this is the place that the ancient Israelites worshipped at, so it's a weird thing to deny in the first place. Now I understand why the palestinian MKs would like to take a firm stance against Jewish pilgrimages to the mountain, but it seems unwise to alienate mainstream jewish beliefs by denying the importance of the site to Judaism when it is in fact only a tiny minority of messianic weirdoes who want to make pilgrimage to the site, messianic extremists who in fact thrive on callous statements of the type Zahalka and Tibi made. Given my high regard to MK Tibi's intelligence and political savvy, I wouldn't be surprised if these statements were specifically designed to flare tensions around the temple mount, I hope I'm wrong and that these were just careless statements, but I kinda find that hard to believe.
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Oct 5, 2015 15:33
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Tensions are already inflamed, though. Currently, Muslim males below the age of 50 are not permitted to visit the Temple Mount, and Palestinians are effectively banned from the Old City as well. The former restriction has been in place for a week or two, and the latter is more recent. It's not like the Temple Mount is a big deal all of a sudden for no reason - Israel unilaterally imposing heavy restrictions on Muslim visitors has been generating considerable outrage, and the fact that the restrictions have only tightened further since then is like a golden gift to every conspiracy theorist and extremist out there. On top of that, you're making a common mistake I see in the I/P conflict - assuming that the things Arab and Palestinian leaders say are meant for outside consumption and outside consumption only. Maybe the things Tibi says might not appeal to mainstream Israeli Jews, but tailoring her message to people who have no intention of voting for her just leads to being out of touch with her base, which is angry at the Israeli government right now, not the extremist messianic and religious-nationalist Jews who occasionally cause trouble there.
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Oct 5, 2015 17:15
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I think she and her party members have decided it's a brilliant idea to play Jr. Historical Revisionists and deny established archeological facts concerning the site, MK Zoabi's statements are somewhat ambiguous as she only goes as far as claiming that Jews have nothing to seek on top of the mount which can also be understood as an appeal to jewish rabbinical authority but given the statements of her fellow Balad party members Jamal Zahalka and Ahmed Tibi on the subject "There is no such thing as 'the temple mount' only the Al Aqsa mosque" I think it's a bit naive to deduce that her statements strictly refer to the jewish prohibition itself but rather continues the line her fellow party members have drawn. OK, these are fair opinions. I'm not sure anything you've said defends: Kim Jong Il posted:Hanin Zoabi remains a racist piece of poo poo Come to think about it, he hasn't pointed out past instances of racism either. You see, I get irked when you have unfounded accusations of racism (and being 'a piece of poo poo') directed against a politician who has suffered massive popular and institutional racism, restrictions on her speech, death threats etc because she represents an underrepresented and politically suppressed minority. Usually this is designed to divert away from her own experiences, the wider problems of occupation she's addressing and dismiss the problems she identifies out of hand. "Oh, Zoabi said that? She's just a racist piece of poo poo, let's not talk about it."
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Oct 5, 2015 17:41
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Main Paineframe posted:Tensions are already inflamed, though. Currently, Muslim males below the age of 50 are not permitted to visit the Temple Mount, and Palestinians are effectively banned from the Old City as well. The former restriction has been in place for a week or two, and the latter is more recent. It's not like the Temple Mount is a big deal all of a sudden for no reason - Israel unilaterally imposing heavy restrictions on Muslim visitors has been generating considerable outrage, and the fact that the restrictions have only tightened further since then is like a golden gift to every conspiracy theorist and extremist out there. Israel has been on and off imposing restrictions on Muslim entry to the site since june of 1967, Tibi and Zahalka's statements are from a few weeks ago. I am unconvinced that these statements were meant for internal palestinian consumption (which also begs the question, which palestinians were the target audience, as these statements were made in Hebrew in the general knesset assembly... were they targeting 48 Palestinians who are eligible to vote to the knesset? who knows), I do not know why these pointless statements are made but I'm relatively convinced they were meant for jewish ears. Hong XiuQuan posted:OK, these are fair opinions. I'm not sure anything you've said defends: I'm not him? I guess I could have went out of my way to clarify that I do not in fact consider MK Zoabi to be racist shithead, I think she's a brave legislator and in her own way contributes more to peace and coexistence than pretty much any other MK but everyone was already grilling him about this poo poo and some people were making incredibly ignorant statements about the significance of the site to jews and the context of Zoabi's statements so I tried to provide a wider context for the whole thing.
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Oct 5, 2015 17:55
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Israel has been on and off imposing restrictions on Muslim entry to the site since june of 1967, Tibi and Zahalka's statements are from a few weeks ago. I am unconvinced that these statements were meant for internal palestinian consumption (which also begs the question, which palestinians were the target audience, as these statements were made in Hebrew in the general knesset assembly... were they targeting 48 Palestinians who are eligible to vote to the knesset? who knows), I do not know why these pointless statements are made but I'm relatively convinced they were meant for jewish ears. Actually, the closest things I can find to your characterization of Tibi and Zahalka's statements were made several years ago, during a Knesset committee hearing on potentially allowing Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount. The statements appear to have been intended primarily for the ears of Rabbi Eli Ben Dahan, the Deputy Minister of Religious Services, a notorious racist who at the time was advocating removing the restriction on Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount.
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Oct 5, 2015 18:46
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Main Paineframe posted:On top of that, you're making a common mistake I see in the I/P conflict - assuming that the things Arab and Palestinian leaders say are meant for outside consumption and outside consumption only. That's right, and that's the same reason that Hamas hasn't changed its charter despite the enormous amount of credibility and damage it causes to them. That's why Arafat instigated the second intifada in 2000 using Sharon's visit to the mount as pretext, and why Abbas is doing the same now. They're instigating, and in all cases it's going to end really, really badly for all parties involved, but especially them.
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Oct 6, 2015 00:47
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Except nobody is going to reasonably believe the Israelis when they blame it on the Hamas/PLO whenever they decay into a totalitarian fascist state.
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Oct 6, 2015 00:53
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Kim Jong Il posted:That's right, and that's the same reason that Hamas hasn't changed its charter despite the enormous amount of credibility and damage it causes to them. That's why Arafat instigated the second intifada in 2000 using Sharon's visit to the mount as pretext, and why Abbas is doing the same now. They're instigating, and in all cases it's going to end really, really badly for all parties involved, but especially them. Sharon's visit to al-Haram ash-Sharif was pretty loving provocative. Israeli actions over the last decade have been pretty loving provocative. Far from instigating an intifada, Abbas has been doing everything possible to contain one for years.
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Oct 6, 2015 01:19
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Times of Israel posted:Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas ordered his security chiefs to do their utmost to urgently quell surging West Bank protests Saturday night. http://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-tells-pa-forces-to-urgently-quell-west-bank-protests/ Totally instigating another Intifada. Also Director in Chief of Pallywood.
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Oct 6, 2015 01:38
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VitalSigns posted:
Oh, I agree with the status quo. It's just that I think it's a somewhat regrettable necessity, and making the Temple Mount judenfrei should be thought of as such rather than as the just desserts of the Zionist fiends. Or by transparently disingenuous bad faith appeals to defer entirely to the wishes of the Chief Rabbinate. Hong XiuQuan posted:Again, do you think that she wants Jewish Muslims to be forbidden from praying there? You're really gonna go with the "Nothing antisemitic about burning down a synagogue, because it's a religious institution and not an ethnic one" nonsense, huh? Or the terrorist attack on the kosher market in Paris. Not antisemitic because kosher is a religious requirement? I've gotten used to  "I don't hate blacks, I hate black culture so you can't call me racist" style special pleading from anti-Zionists, but this kind of blows past that.(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 6, 2015 06:46
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The Insect Court posted:You're really gonna go with the "Nothing antisemitic about burning down a synagogue, because it's a religious institution and not an ethnic one" nonsense, huh? Or the terrorist attack on the kosher market in Paris. Not antisemitic because kosher is a religious requirement? I've gotten used to Well, where to start? Firstly, who was talking about killing Jewish people? Secondly, can you really not tell the difference between someone walking into a Jewish place of worship or a kosher supermarket and killing whoever they can find because they hate all Jews and someone stating that people who are religious Jews shouldn't be worshiping on X y z disputed holy spot? You can argue that it's retarded to try to prevent non-Muslims from praying there or that it's horrible policy. It's not racist. And it's certainly not 'kill Jews on site'. Now can you try to argue your point without suggesting that I'm providing cover for the murder of Jews in Europe? Cheers. Speaking of actual racist murder, no house demolitions or spate of arrests or press conferences in the wake of the lynching of the Palestinian teen in Jerusalem. What's good Israel?
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Oct 6, 2015 08:57
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Well, where to start? Firstly, who was talking about killing Jewish people? Secondly, can you really not tell the difference between someone walking into a Jewish place of worship or a kosher supermarket and killing whoever they can find because they hate all Jews and someone stating that people who are religious Jews shouldn't be worshiping on X y z disputed holy spot? What's this "all Jews" stuff? You said discrimination against Jews attempting to practice their faith can't be considered antisemitic, because it isn't targeting Jews based on the idea of Jewish ethnicity. If you're not going to back down from that absurd stance then bombing a synagogue isn't an antisemitic act because it's targeting religious Jews. Hong XiuQuan posted:Again, do you think that she wants Jewish Muslims to be forbidden from praying there? Did Coulibably attack a mosque and kill Jewish converts to Islam? No? Well then obviously you can't say it was an antisemitic attack  Also not antisemitic - the claim that Jews kill Christian infants and use their blood for baking matzos during Passover. Those mobs were just targeting religious Jews based on what they believed were ritual practices of Judaism, not ethnicity. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Oct 6, 2015 |
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Oct 6, 2015 09:17
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Are Christians allowed to pray there?
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Oct 6, 2015 09:31
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