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Very, very hosed up news from Jerusalem today. quote:Israeli police said that two Palestinians, aged 13 and 17, attacked an Israeli teen who was riding his bicycle. http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=768197 There's a video of the 14 year old dying on the street to a chorus of insults here.  https://twitter.com/AlAwdaPRRC/status/653655415792795648And some more hot takes.  This is one of two incidents in which Palestinian kids were shot after stabbing incidents today. I/P is awful.
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Oct 12, 2015 23:35
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This is one of the most brutal things I've seen in a long while. It's simultaneously sickening and enraging.
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Oct 12, 2015 23:47
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emanresu tnuocca posted:This man: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203979617365031&set=a.10203880083356743.1073741826.1660752977&type=3&theater (I'm not embedding the photo cause well, it's a personal profile pic), has made a post stating that last night some scum rushed towards him with a 2 by 4 swearing madly and telling him he's gonna beat him up for 'being an arab' (with expletives added) he managed to flee unscathed, upon getting to safety and contacting the police they told him that they received over 300 (three hundred!) complaints of a similar nature the past couple of days. This is terrifying, and I hope, at the very least, govt. Officials condemn this kind of violent racism. I also hope those subject to it end up seeing public harassment of palestinians in a different light following this. Volkerball posted:Very, very hosed up news from Jerusalem today. Disgusting. It takes a special kind of psychopath to taunt a literal child as he bleeds out, and yet another kind to cheerleas this entire tragedy knowing full well that what you say is attached to your name and face. The article blurb doesn't say that the child in the video was the one killed, so thats one shred of grace in this atrocity. I would literally be less appalled if the comments had been made anonymously, because that would at least imply some level of shame for their words.
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Oct 12, 2015 23:48
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Hahaha, get hosed Steve Bolsom.
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Oct 12, 2015 23:49
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team overhead smash posted:This is one of the most brutal things I've seen in a long while. It's simultaneously sickening and enraging. I hate humanity.
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Oct 12, 2015 23:52
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MonsieurChoc posted:Edit: Like, it's a pretty Czarist thing to do. Given that Jerusalem played host to a pack of rioters whose apparent only problem with Nazi Germany was that the wrong people were doing the pogroms, I'm thinking irony left the station a long time ago. Volkerball posted:This is one of two incidents in which Palestinian kids were shot after stabbing incidents today. I/P is awful. "Don’t hesitate, even when an incident just starts, shooting to kill is the right thing to do. The directives should specify shooting to kill when anyone pulls out a knife or screwdriver or whatever." -- noted reasonable centrist Yair Lapid, earlier this week http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Yesh-Atid-chairman-Yair-Lapid-Terrorist-was-shot-and-killed-that-is-how-it-should-be-422700 Lum_ fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Oct 12, 2015 |
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Oct 12, 2015 23:53
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Neurolimal posted:The article blurb doesn't say that the child in the video was the one killed yeeeeeeah about that. neither survived. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF0cGt5-69k the girl shot after the stabbing a couple hours before this one i believe is still alive though.
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Oct 12, 2015 23:56
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team overhead smash posted:There's definitely a real chance. Both of the other Intifada's were caused by a spark setting of the longstanding tensions in the Israel/Palestine conflict. At the moment those tensions are obviously still there, they've started erupting and neither side seems willing (or perhaps even able) to stop it from escalating. More or less rather than a more open Intifada, you will have a "new normal" of complete hostility and a constant drum beat of violence. In many ways, Palestinians can't resist like they once did but at the same time, the status quo is too unbearable for there to be any true peace. This is especially so because there is no where near any workable solution to really any part of the conflict.
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Oct 13, 2015 00:00
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I think calling this an "Intifada" misses a fundamental shift - the Israeli civilian reaction. Were Lehava gangs roaming the streets and assaulting lynching random Israeli Arabs on the street during the previous Intifadas? This isn't just a Palestinian uprising anymore, this is teetering dangerously close to a full-blown ethnic conflict.
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Oct 13, 2015 00:35
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Main Paineframe posted:I think calling this an "Intifada" misses a fundamental shift - the Israeli civilian reaction. Were Lehava gangs roaming the streets and assaulting lynching random Israeli Arabs on the street during the previous Intifadas? This isn't just a Palestinian uprising anymore, this is teetering dangerously close to a full-blown ethnic conflict. There weren't 300,000-500,000 illegal settlers in the West Bank during the first Intifada. There weren't Israeli politicians openly talking about how Arabs should be killed etc during the first Intifada. 'Break their bones'. So no, it's not quite the same circumstances but yes, it's probably still a popular uprising.
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Oct 13, 2015 01:23
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team overhead smash posted:If your view of a valid goal is there merely being peace conferences regardless of their efficacy then sure, but I don't see it that way. The outcome of Oslo has obviously been a manifest failure. That's not a failure of the first Intifada. That's a failure of Palestinian and Israeli political leadership since. You might not remember the excitement around the Madrid and Oslo negotiations on the part of Palestinians everywhere but I do. My father was present covering it and I can't remember him being more excited about a tremendous political moment (he was a 1967 refugee). The fact that afterwards Arafat returned and there was a measure of self-governance and hope were big wins - and I say this as someone who takes the Said stance (see Peace and Its Discontents). That the Intifada led to anything at all was a success *and it took six bloody years for it to happen*. Then of course we have Netanyahu, Sharon and Netanyahu again.
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Oct 13, 2015 01:35
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Ytlaya posted:*And due to the reality of the Israel/Palestine situation, it's kind of impossible for someone to be "pro-Israel" (in the sense of thinking that Palestinians are the main problem) without also being disingenuous. By their very nature, you can't really support incorrect/bigoted views with a valid argument. What a crock of poo poo. I think anti-Zionists have a very skewed view of the conflict, in that they view it is as Israel as a goliath with its modern economy/army and US backing vs. a bunch of refugees living in huts, when Zionists see Israel as a besieged state of minorities surrounded by hostile neighbors who have tried multiple times to destroy it. Furthermore, Israel is a democracy with very delicate political considerations for any move, making it impossible to make unilateral concessions without political repercussions including possibly bringing down a government and installing a more hawkish Knesset in its place. Meanwhile, Abbas and Haniyeh are dictators ruling by fiat, as is the majority of the region (including yes, our puppet in Egypt.) emanresu tnuocca posted:SedanChair is a !#%*!#% who claims that Bibi Netanyahu is a worse person than Bashar al-Assad and that Israel's crimes are much worse than those of ISIS and the Assad regime, that Baloogan would think he's pro-Israeli is indicative more than anything else of how rotten Baloogan's brain is. This is correct, anyone who doesn't want to immediately destroy Israel is some form of Zionist. I'm more sympathetic to Israel of course, but ultimately I don't care, I have zero attachment to the country and no desire to ever visit. I just don't want everyone who lives there to get murdered. Kim Jong Il fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Oct 13, 2015 |
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Oct 13, 2015 02:46
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Pretty funny how jewish brown-shirts are joining forces with islamists to make the streets of Israel unsafe for Mizrahi jews, innit? Ironically this is almost just in that Mizrahim are the chief bloc of racism towards Arabs in Israeli society. emanresu tnuocca posted:If you want to bring a less pro-palestinian POV to the thread you are more than welcome to discuss poo poo like an actual human being, like for instance, Kim Jong does, I don't see him getting probated for his opinions in the thread even though they are not seemingly different from TIC's opinions That is loving insulting. Ultimately, much like the real conflict, this is working the refs, and working the refs is for losers, not to mention against forum rules.
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Oct 13, 2015 02:50
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Kim Jong Il, I'm glad you've stopped invoking my family's painful history in Ukraine to justify your support for colonialism and apartheid.
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Oct 13, 2015 02:55
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Kim Jong Il posted:What a crock of poo poo. I think anti-Zionists have a very skewed view of the conflict, in that they view it is as Israel as a goliath with its modern economy/army and US backing vs. a bunch of refugees living in huts, when Zionists see Israel as a besieged state of minorities surrounded by hostile neighbors who have tried multiple times to destroy it. Furthermore, Israel is a democracy with very delicate political considerations for any move, making it impossible to make unilateral concessions without political repercussions including possibly bringing down a government and installing a more hawkish Knesset in its place. Meanwhile, Abbas and Haniyeh are dictators ruling by fiat, as is the majority of the region (including yes, our puppet in Egypt.) I'm a Zionist and I also see Israel as a goliath with its modern economy/army and US backing vs. a bunch of refugees living in huts, and the only reason the political considerations regarding making unilateral concessions are very delicate is because a sizable portion of the electorate are loving psychotic, hth
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Oct 13, 2015 03:01
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Kim Jong Il posted:What a crock of poo poo. I think anti-Zionists have a very skewed view of the conflict, in that they view it is as Israel as a goliath with its modern economy/army and US backing vs. a bunch of refugees living in huts, when Zionists see Israel as a besieged state of minorities surrounded by hostile neighbors who have tried multiple times to destroy it. No, I'm pretty sure most "anti-Zionists", or more specifically people who lean pro-Palestinian, attribute racism a big part in the reasons for the conflict. Because believing that all of a people are alike in thought and action on ethnic grounds, is racism. There may be good reason for the racism, but there are also good reasons why people would want to destroy Israel and I don't have to treat Ayatollah Khamenei's belief that Israel is really a European colony with much respect, either.
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Oct 13, 2015 03:01
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No one gives a flying gently caress about your ethnicity, get over yourself.
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Oct 13, 2015 03:03
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Kim Jong Il posted:No one gives a flying gently caress about your ethnicity, get over yourself. But I thought Palestinians were antisemites???
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Oct 13, 2015 03:04
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You cared enough to stop that idiotic crowing about pogroms, which was the point.
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Oct 13, 2015 03:05
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I did? When people who think it's ok to indiscriminately stab their neighbors, that specific case sure seems like incitement towards an ethnic riot to me. The fact that Israel is letting price tag killers go free to apparently keep the cover of their agents is disgusting, and also in no way excuses ethnonationalist racism directed towards Israel. Jesus gently caress, it seems pretty bedrock and uncontroversial that all nationalism is horrible and inherently racist, Palestinian nationalism and/or pan-Arab nationalism doesn't magically get a pass because they're "resisting" or any such nonsense.
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Oct 13, 2015 03:13
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Kim Jong Il posted:I did? When people who think it's ok to indiscriminately stab their neighbors, that specific case sure seems like incitement towards an ethnic riot to me. The fact that Israel is letting price tag killers go free to apparently keep the cover of their agents is disgusting, and also in no way excuses ethnonationalist racism directed towards Israel. Actually, there's nothing wrong with using a sense of a collective identity inherently, or of demanding control over your own affairs. Those, at least, are perfectly neutral parts of nationalism. I guess we could just assume that all sense of Palestinian-ness just involves the bad parts.
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Oct 13, 2015 03:16
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Hong XiuQuan posted:I'd love it if you answered the question: do you consider Palestinian assaults on military/police to be acts of terror? ... Attacks on Zionist occupiers, armed or unarmed, male or female, adult or otherwise, are of course all parts of the glorious struggle to free Al-Quds, and the Palestine ghost, coast to coast. "Terror" would be a remotely relevant word to throw at me had I used it myself, tried to make distinctions, or recommendations based on said distinction. An "alleged" attack in an "illegal settlement". Totally not something that was documented on video and took place in the largest residential neighborhood in the middle of Jerusalem. (Yes yes - just counter-balancing the Jewish propaganda machine, for sure) The twitter is just like "what attack? There was no attack, just a shooting of random children by the nefarious Zionists".
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Oct 13, 2015 04:37
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Kim Jong Il posted:I did? When people who think it's ok to indiscriminately stab their neighbors, that specific case sure seems like incitement towards an ethnic riot to me. The fact that Israel is letting price tag killers go free to apparently keep the cover of their agents is disgusting, and also in no way excuses ethnonationalist racism directed towards Israel. No one has said they get a pass or that it's okay, only that they're inherently less threatening than nationalism and racism from Israelis (as is proven by a past in which Israel has killed a metric fuckton more people than Palestinians could ever hope to). And (I'm pretty sure I've already said this but it doesn't seem to have sunk in) there's also the vitally important aspect that Israel created the circumstances that lead to the hatred on the part of the Palestinians. If you treat a group of millions of people like poo poo, at least some of them will lash out at you. The highest immediate priority should obviously be to stop the actions of the more powerful state that directly lead to such extremism. Condemning Palestinian extremism in light of current circumstances is completely and utterly pointless and accomplishes nothing. While I'm not exactly optimistic that negative opinions and actions towards Israel will have any effect, there's at least a non-zero chance of them solving the problem; the same can't be said for telling Palestinians -a group of millions of people - to magically erase extremism under circumstances (imposed by Israel) that virtually guarantee extremism to thrive. It's especially egregious to focus more on Palestinian extremism under such circumstances when at least as much extremism occurs in Israel. For some mysterious reason, you feel compelled to worry more about Palestinian violence against Israelis despite these points. I honestly can't think of any reason you would do this other than either racism or some irrational need to balance the discourse of an inherently imbalanced issue. On a side note, I'm not really sure whether I would be considered a Zionist or not. My personal feeling is that Israel should not be destroyed, due to the fact that two wrongs won't make a right. I do, however, believe that Israel should never have been created in the first place (sort of like how it's crazy to think America/Americans should be destroyed but totally reasonable to consider Europeans occupying North America to be a crime). Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Oct 13, 2015 |
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Oct 13, 2015 05:03
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Lum_ posted:Given that Jerusalem played host to a pack of rioters whose apparent only problem with Nazi Germany was that the wrong people were doing the pogroms, I'm thinking irony left the station a long time ago. I was actually referring to Bloody Sudnay, but it works either way and that's sad on a deep fundamental level.
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Oct 13, 2015 06:28
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vlevet underground, morel ike, suede underground. or steel wool undergorund (soag)
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Oct 13, 2015 10:02
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oh gently caress me dead wrong thread
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Oct 13, 2015 10:05
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Avshalom posted:vlevet underground, morel ike, suede underground. or steel wool undergorund (soag)
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Oct 13, 2015 10:07
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i don't believe in israel i think it's sjst a fad BUTalso jews msut have a nation. to protect us from neo-hitlers.so im a zionist in that way/
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Oct 13, 2015 10:11
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cuvk = cutlet plus gently caress in my opion.
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Oct 13, 2015 10:12
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ariel is my father (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 13, 2015 10:14
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Three Israelis dead in Jersualem in two separate attacks , two were shot, one was run over. One of the perps was killed, another was arrested. There were also apparently two more incidents, one in Raanana another in Qiryat Ata (these places are well inside 'proper Israel' to those who may have wondered) but there were no casualties or any serious injuries... other than the perps themselves one of which is critically injured not sure about the other one. Kim Jong Il posted:That is loving insulting. I am actually somewhat fond of TIC, I don't think his opinions are that different than yours he is just more confrontational when it comes to posting itt.
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Oct 13, 2015 10:42
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Three Israelis dead in Jersualem in two separate attacks , two were shot, one was run over. One of the perps was killed, another was arrested. The one in Qiryat Ata apparently Jewish guy stabbing a Jew he thought was Palestinian. I don't think he's been shot, beaten by a mob or had his house destroyed so he's definitely not been mistaken for a Palestinian.
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Oct 13, 2015 11:16
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Hong XiuQuan posted:The one in Qiryat Ata apparently Jewish guy stabbing a Jew he thought was Palestinian. I don't think he's been shot, beaten by a mob or had his house destroyed so he's definitely not been mistaken for a Palestinian. Yes, after beating the drums about it for an hour some media sources just stated that the police is claiming that it was a criminally motivated incident.
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Oct 13, 2015 11:22
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Haaretz is reporting that the police suspects that the perp in the Qiryat Ata knife attacks might have been on the prowl looking for arabs to stab and instead, as is becoming increasingly common, stabbed a mizrahi jew instead. And indeed he wasn't executed on the spot, odd
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Oct 13, 2015 12:17
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Ytlaya posted:For some mysterious reason, you feel compelled to worry more about Palestinian violence against Israelis despite these points. I honestly can't think of any reason you would do this other than either racism or some irrational need to balance the discourse of an inherently imbalanced issue. Again, it's already posted by the time I get here, and it's not just Israel vs. the Palestinians, it's Israel vs. a hostile region, with the violence now spilling over into Europe. They're the vulnerable minority facing an existential threat. In contrast, despite all the horrible poo poo that is happening, no one believes as a western nation that Israel actually is capable of mass murder. For some mysterious reason, you feel compelled to worry more about Israeli violence despite these points. I honestly can't think of any reason you would do this other than either racism or some irrational need to balance the discourse of an inherently imbalanced issue.
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Oct 13, 2015 13:46
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I believe that Israel is capable of mass murder, they did it last year.
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Oct 13, 2015 13:53
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Kim Jong Il posted:Again, it's already posted by the time I get here, and it's not just Israel vs. the Palestinians, it's Israel vs. a hostile region, with the violence now spilling over into Europe. They're the vulnerable minority facing an existential threat. In contrast, despite all the horrible poo poo that is happening, no one believes as a western nation that Israel actually is capable of mass murder. - Enver Pasha, 1915
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Oct 13, 2015 14:04
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Kim Jong Il posted:Again, it's already posted by the time I get here, and it's not just Israel vs. the Palestinians, it's Israel vs. a hostile region, with the violence now spilling over into Europe. They're the vulnerable minority facing an existential threat. In contrast, despite all the horrible poo poo that is happening, no one believes as a western nation that Israel actually is capable of mass murder. Israel isn't really versus a hostile region. As far as I know the chaos in other countries hasn't really affected it (Pro-click) and it ignores the fact that relations between Israel and both Jordan and Egypt are workable and cordial enough. The violence that is happening seems to come from Palestinians and be directed specifically towards Israelis due to the occupation rather than as part of the greater WAR ON TERROR (TM) that has been going on for a good while. Not only that but as has been pointed out Israel is under no existential threat. Israelis are being killed and that is awful, but there is no danger of Israelis as a whole or the Israeli state coming under threat because it is a massive regional power. Not only that but, you know, plenty of people do believe that Israel is capable of mass murder as a nation based on the fact that as a nation they have committed mass murder and this has been picked up by the UN, academics, human rights organisations and independent observers (like posters on this forum). Israel is willing to fire without cause into civilian homes and level entire neighbourhoods - both killing residents and pushing those who survive into a life of homeless poverty. The UN report on Protective Edge also includes examples of them blowing up families of 20 odd people with precision weaponry for no known reason. I mean if Israel doesn't murder civilians, what happened to the 22 members of the al-Daya family that were bombed to oblivion? What about the use of indiscriminate fletchette ammunition (which inherently makes it a war crime on par with Palestinian militant group's missiles) to kill five mourners at the Abd al-Dayem funeral? The 15 civilians killed at the al-Maqadmah mosque? The killing of all 8 members of the Al Hajj family? The 9 dead, 3 women (One of them pregnant) and 6 children, on the attack on the Al Qassas family? The 19 killed, 11 of which were children including an 8 month old baby, when a 1,000 or 2,000 lb bomb was dropped on the Al Najjar household? The 19 killed in the attack on the Abu Jabr house in a refugee camp? Israel continually bombs civilians under non-existent pretexts. At this point I'm just quoting numbers, so let's take a momentary break from that: "I found the decapitated bodies of my uncle and daughter. My cousin was alive but died on the way to hospital. Another cousin’s body was found sliced in two. We had ten corpses in the first ambulances. No other survivors were found. […] After having removed the cement I identified my cousin Dina’s body. What I witnessed was horrible. She was 9 months pregnant and she had come from her home to her parents’ house to have her baby. We could not imagine that she had passed away. Her stomach was ripped open and the unborn baby was lying there with the skull shattered. We kept searching for other corpses and found my uncle’swife. We had great difficulty removing all the pieces of cement from her body." - Testimony of a witness to the Abu Jabr attack (UN 2015 report) Israel kills civilians for such little reason and in flagrant defiance of international law that the only reasonable stance is they are committing mass murder. Personally I worry about violence on both sides and civilians and even soldiers dying on both sides is a tragedy even if the latter is lawful under the aegis of a military conflict. The thing is there are a lot more dead Palestinians than Israelis. Hell, I think even if you confine it to just the last week or so when all these unprecedented knifings have happened the amount of Palestinians shot to death in protests and the like still outweighs Israeli deaths. Not only that but Israel is the only one that has the power to escalate this to the stage of causing massive suffering and providing an existential threat to the other side and is the one that is the occupier rather than the occupiee and so the onus to act and resolve the occupation (the root cause of the violence is on Israel) I don't think you should be surprised if people focus on Israel negatively.. The deaths are tragic and there is no excuse for them or for those cheerleading them on like Hamas, but it doesn't by itself invalidate the entire context of the conflict. Edit: FYI a lot of this is C+Ped from a portion of a post I made to you a while back, which you ignored and didn't respond to the vast majority of. The reason you gave for ignoring almost all of it was because "The fact that horrific human rights abuses occurred is not what I disputed". If you're now saying "no one believes as a western nation that Israel actually is capable of mass murder" then you specifically do seem to be disputing the horrific human rights abuses that occurred. team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Oct 13, 2015 |
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Oct 13, 2015 14:09
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Kim Jong Il posted:Again, it's already posted by the time I get here, and it's not just Israel vs. the Palestinians, it's Israel vs. a hostile region, with the violence now spilling over into Europe. They're the vulnerable minority facing an existential threat. In contrast, despite all the horrible poo poo that is happening, no one believes as a western nation that Israel actually is capable of mass murder. Are you genuinely of the belief that Israel faces a greater existential thread from the Arab world than Palestinians do from Israel? What do you mean by that last sentence? Is Israel incapable of mass murder because it is a Western nation, or are there no Western nations that believe Israel is capable of mass murder?
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Oct 13, 2015 14:29
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Even Syria isn't hostile to Israel. When JaN took over an area in the Golan heights, they posted a video where fighters were standing there pointing across the border saying a shot hadn't been fired across it in 20 years or w/e. Regime state media picked it up and posted it everywhere as a message to Israel. "This is what awaits you if we fall." Since then, Israel has supported Russian action in Syria to prop up Assad. And of course, there's absolutely no way JaN poses anything other than an inconvenience to Israel militarily. The idea that Israel is facing an existential threat is laughable, and it's disgusting that talking point is used to support Israel's right to commit war crimes.
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Oct 13, 2015 14:34
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