|
TheMcD posted:It says right after you beat Asriel. "As a flower, I was soulless. I lacked the power to love other people." Flowey didn't have a soul, which monsters believe (and which has apparently been proven to be true) holds compassion, love and so on. So of course, when you give something utterly compassionless a desire to live, it'll turn out to be bug-gently caress evil, especially when it has great power. Yeah, I guess. I mean that plot is basically a killer-AI plot, right? You take something without a soul and give it sentience, and, surprise, it doesn't give a fig about murdering everybody to achieve its' ends. It's a pure psychopath, which is just a beep boop computation. It wants safety, you aren't safe, it has a gun, *blam*. No empathy. I don't think you can argue Flowey didn't have empathy, because it take express delight in imagining how sad you'll be after it murders you and your friends over and over. That requires valuing emotions, which, I'd argue, requires understanding them. This wasn't amoral survival instinct, Flowey was SEETHING with emotion. If you can't have compassion, fine, but why do you get hatred? Bacter fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Oct 26, 2015 |
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 19:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 14, 2024 07:44 |
|
|
I think the hatred was mostly left over from when the original fallen child was sharing a soul with Asriel, since he mentions said child being the reason he adopted the "kill or be killed" worldview.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 19:52
|
|
|
Bacter posted:This is way more frustrating than a game with a great setup where the authors just have no way to close it, so it turns into a big mush at the end. That's disappointing, but understandable. Endings are hard! But in Undetale, the authors HAD a good conclusion, and then we staple on this extra bonus content that seemed super abrupt, out of nowhere, and hard to care about. I'm sure there were a jillion tiny foreshadowings, and if I'll look at the way the flowers behaved earlier I'll find etc. etc. etc. Don't care! Don't care. Yes, things show up unexpectedly. But while this is the end of this path, it's not the end of the content. So I'll ask you to revisit this later, when we can talk about the narrative structure of the entire game. It's not about picking up tiny foreshadowings, it's about reading the entire book.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 19:54
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:So I've been trying to figure out what a lot of the music samples from. My best guesses: I think Almalgam actually samples from The Beastie Boys. Which Earthbound also sampled from.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 19:55
|
|
|
Dr. Fetus posted:I think Almalgam actually samples from The Beastie Boys. Which Earthbound also sampled from. I got really excited before realizing you probably meant the Beach Boys 
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 19:57
|
|
|
How the hell did you white-text Mad Dummy? I didn't know that was a thing that could happen.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 19:57
|
|
|
HMS Boromir posted:I think the hatred was mostly left over from when the original fallen child was sharing a soul with Asriel, since he mentions said child being the reason he adopted the "kill or be killed" worldview. I agree, I think that's implied when you talk to the kid in the garden. I mean, I'm judging before we see the whole game, maybe this is more fleshed out other places.Maybe you're SUPPOSED to get an ok-not-great ending before you get the pacifist ending, so this whole thing addresses concerns that are brought up in an ok ending? I dunno. I really wouldn't be so hard on this if the rest of the game weren't so good, but nobody can tell me that the secret original fallen child is actually who you name and you are a secret different child, but I guess nobody seems to recognize them or comment on that, and this secret flower is I guess shadowing you but not in a way that's evident at all, any of that is anywhere near as entertaining as Sans and Papyrus. Or the dogs. Or Undyne. It just feels really bog-standard JRPG. It's like they got done with the game, but decided they wanted a hidden secret story behind the whole thing. Dylan16807 posted:Yes, things show up unexpectedly. But while this is the end of this path, it's not the end of the content. So I'll ask you to revisit this later, when we can talk about the narrative structure of the entire game. Fair enough. My only complete criticism at this time is "a complete pacficist run, lacking any other context, is like a delicious meal followed by the waiter burping into a fan pointed at you, which then wafts into your face." But maybe what I think is a burp is just a misted aperitif, and given the flavors of the rest of the meal, it'll be delicious. Bacter fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Oct 26, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 19:58
|
|
|
Bacter posted:Yeah, I guess. I mean that plot is basically a killer-AI plot, right? You take something without a soul and give it sentience, and, surprise, it doesn't give a fig about murdering everybody to achieve its' ends. It's a pure psychopath, which is just a beep boop computation. It wants safety, you aren't safe, it has a gun, *blam*. No empathy. I think its supposed to imply that a lack of Soul does not give you positive emotions also I am not psychologist, but I believe sociopaths can understand emotions
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:01
|
|
|
loquacius posted:I got really excited before realizing you probably meant the Beach Boys Whoops. It may have been that. All I know is that it was B Boys.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:02
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:
Ahahaha oh boy. Toby actually gets frustrated at ZUN and Touhou because they share a musical aesthetic, so his music keeps coming out like Touhou music. It's not intentional, and he actually made a tumblr post about how easy it is to make 'touhou-sounding' music with his usual soundfont. [e] Found it. It isn't quite how I remembered it, but whatever. Valgaav fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Oct 26, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:07
|
|
|
Bacter posted:I agree, I think that's implied when you talk to the kid in the garden.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:08
|
|
|
Certain parts of Amalgam also sound a lot like instruments used in Kirby's Dream Land 3 for the SNES.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:10
|
|
|
I'm just glad I wasn't the only person who heard all of Alphys' lines in Lisa Simpson's voice. Although that might be one of the many reasons why I dislike Alphys as well. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:12
|
|
|
I will admit that I get a little teary eyed when "His Theme" Starts playing and ramping up. Though I believe that that is in fact the intent. Valgaav posted:Ahahaha oh boy. Toby actually gets frustrated at ZUN and Touhou because they share a musical aesthetic, so his music keeps coming out like Touhou music. It's not intentional, and he actually made a tumblr post about how easy it is to make 'touhou-sounding' music with his usual soundfont. UNTRANSLATABLE JAPANESE IDIOM
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:22
|
|
|
 In case people have forgotten...  THE KING WILL TRIM A HEDGE IN THE SHAPE OF MY SMILE!!!
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:26
|
|
|
Absolutely amazing LP, Prof.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:30
|
|
|
re: Touhou music, I always assumed that ASGORE was the Touhou Trumpets track more than Spear of Justice.  Also, I might be a heathen on this, but I like NGAAAH! more than I like Spear of Justice, musically. There's something about the piano section that kicks in right when before you face Undyne, coupled with 'The wind is howling...' that just gets me all psyched up. Probably doesn't hurt I was using the bandanna at the time. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:42
|
|
|
HMS Boromir posted:I think the hatred was mostly left over from when the original fallen child was sharing a soul with Asriel, since he mentions said child being the reason he adopted the "kill or be killed" worldview. This is my reading of it too, though how exactly Asriel came to be a part of Flowey hasn't really been explained yet, unless it's supposed to be "grew from the dust, + determination". It's a little handwavey because of everything we've been told not quite lining up - the soul doesn't survive beyond death, but apparently there is at least some kind of "soul residue" inside the monsters' dust which can retain enough of a sense of self for Flowery, and later Asriel, to exist. I am hoping so hard that there's some kind of mega secret ending where Asriel gets to somehow live for good but considering how things have gone so far I'm thinking it's unlikely. I want to save everyone
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:45
|
|
|
Oblivion4568238 posted:How the hell did you white-text Mad Dummy? I didn't know that was a thing that could happen. Same, I thought he was just always yellow. Legit curious about this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:46
|
|
|
Part of run 3 will be talking about how to yellowtext everyone.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:46
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:So I've been trying to figure out what a lot of the music samples from. My best guesses: Ghost fight used samples from the venus concert in earthbound
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:47
|
|
RabidWeasel posted:This is my reading of it too, though how exactly Asriel came to be a part of Flowey hasn't really been explained yet, unless it's supposed to be "grew from the dust, + determination". It's a little handwavey because of everything we've been told not quite lining up - the soul doesn't survive beyond death, but apparently there is at least some kind of "soul residue" inside the monsters' dust which can retain enough of a sense of self for Flowery, and later Asriel, to exist. It's mentioned at some point (in the librarby?) that a dead monster keeps some of its "essence" in the dust it leaves behind. So essentially, the "person" sticks, but not their SOUL. Only through the power of all those SOULs coming together and all that friendship stuff that Asriel was able to regain a SOUL for a bit, but only for a bit.
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:50
|
|
|
Cathulhu posted:Yeah, Vulcan Hotsperson is really one of the game's high points. Don't make fun of my friend, The Fury.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 20:56
|
|
|
TheMcD posted:It's mentioned at some point (in the librarby?) that a dead monster keeps some of its "essence" in the dust it leaves behind. So essentially, the "person" sticks, but not their SOUL. Only through the power of all those SOULs coming together and all that friendship stuff that Asriel was able to regain a SOUL for a bit, but only for a bit. And he's going to be the sociopathic flower again shortly after we leave, according to him.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 21:00
|
|
|
RabidWeasel posted:This is my reading of it too, though how exactly Asriel came to be a part of Flowey hasn't really been explained yet, unless it's supposed to be "grew from the dust, + determination". It's a little handwavey because of everything we've been told not quite lining up - the soul doesn't survive beyond death, but apparently there is at least some kind of "soul residue" inside the monsters' dust which can retain enough of a sense of self for Flowery, and later Asriel, to exist. The way I figure is that, what with monster souls and human souls being different, monster souls contain all their compassion/love/hope etc and their memories/personality sense of self ends up in the magic dust. Human souls seem to have their sense of self, and their determination, which is why the six souls rebelled against Flowey with the signature items (frypan, notebook, gun, etc). It's because humans are made of water instead of magic, I guess. Like, the amalgamates melted when they were given determination, clearly it's because they weren't wet enough to be determined. I'm sure there's some kind of joke in there about determination being water-soluble but I can't make it work.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 21:02
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:I will admit that I get a little teary eyed when "His Theme" Starts playing and ramping up. I was watching an LP of this from... I think it was youtube user "hello its dad"?... and when this happened he said "Oh come on, well timed drums is basically cheating!" then proceeded to tear up anyway.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 21:04
|
|
|
TheMcD posted:It's mentioned at some point (in the librarby?) that a dead monster keeps some of its "essence" in the dust it leaves behind. So essentially, the "person" sticks, but not their SOUL. Only through the power of all those SOULs coming together and all that friendship stuff that Asriel was able to regain a SOUL for a bit, but only for a bit. Well, that explains that; I must have missed it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 21:06
|
|
|
RabidWeasel posted:This is my reading of it too, though how exactly Asriel came to be a part of Flowey hasn't really been explained yet, unless it's supposed to be "grew from the dust, + determination". It's a little handwavey because of everything we've been told not quite lining up - the soul doesn't survive beyond death, but apparently there is at least some kind of "soul residue" inside the monsters' dust which can retain enough of a sense of self for Flowery, and later Asriel, to exist. The bitter irony is that trying to restart over and over again in order to bail out Asriel's tragically adorable butt is exactly what Mad Goatwizard Asriel threatened to do in his boss fight - reset over and over because he wants to spend more time with you, knowing that you'll play along to get your "happy ending" no matter how much it makes other people suffer. Asriel's fate is thematically appropriate and fits in the grand scheme of things but he's such a cute little bastard and his life has sucked so much that lots of people instead resort to making their own endings, i.e., braving the shadow of the valley of fanfic.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 21:08
|
|
|
For reference, from Part 10: "Monster funerals, technically speaking, are cool as heck. When monsters get old and kick the bucket, they turn into dust. At funerals, we take that dust and spread it on that person's favorite thing. Then their essence will live on in that thing... Uhhh, am I at the page minimum yet? I'm kinda sick of writing this."
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 21:09
|
|
|
As Flowey, Asriel is a complete and utter rear end who inspires seething rage in me. But as himself, Asriel is adorkable and loveable and I just wanna pick him up and hug him because it's all so saaaad. drat you game, for making me feel for the amoral villain so effectively!
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 21:17
|
|
|
Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Is that actually stated or just implied? The boss monsters do not get back together before the game is over. Like, there is no cliched scene where Asgore realizes what a jerk he's been and Toriel jumps into his arms and they reconcile or whatever. The game even points out that this hasn't happened, at least twice. (Toriel says not to refer to her as Dreemurr, her married name, and Alphys asks if you think they'll get back together, which underlines the fact that they aren't.) What happens long term is up to the player's imagination. It's a world where cool skeletons drive sports cars. Anything can happen, if you believe it can. (A lot of people think Toriel shouldn't take his stupid rear end back, though.)
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 21:17
|
|
|
She could do better than him. Hook up with Sans, have a kid who looks like a goat-skeleton.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 21:19
|
|
|
idonotlikepeas posted:The boss monsters do not get back together before the game is over. Like, there is no cliched scene where Asgore realizes what a jerk he's been and Toriel jumps into his arms and they reconcile or whatever. The game even points out that this hasn't happened, at least twice. (Toriel says not to refer to her as Dreemurr, her married name, and Alphys asks if you think they'll get back together, which underlines the fact that they aren't.) I can't see them getting back together to be honest, though at least it seems like they eventually mend their fences at least a bit, if only for Frisk's sake. Besides, after losing two children and very nearly losing a third, I sort of picture Toriel as someone who would focus exclusively on raising Frisk, and save trying to have a lovelife for until after he's all grown up and moved out of the house.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 21:20
|
|
|
Speedball posted:She could do better than him. Hook up with Sans, have a kid who looks like a goat-skeleton. Also maybe they would think of a better name than Sariel or Tons.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 21:22
|
|
|
Rorahusky posted:As Flowey, Asriel is a complete and utter rear end who inspires seething rage in me. This is a frustration of mine, actually. There is no ending where you get to truly rub Flowey's face in it. The Neutral Ending is the closest we get, and...well, you saw how that went. On the other hand, just how powerful is flowey, anyway? Pre-Omega, I mean. He gets laid out by Toriel, and according to his Omega boss fight couldn't beat Asgore, despite having the ability to Save. On the other hand, those are two tough nuts to crack, and he managed to knock us down to 1 HP with his circle-of-pellets attack. This is an interesting running theme throughout the game, where you never fight things at their full power - you never get to see what they're really capable of. Toriel just wants to scare you off. Papyrus is too much of a softie to do anything. MTT was just in it for the ratings. Asgore didn't want to fight anyone, much less a small child. Flowey viewed it all as a game, and Asriel was much the same. The only one who looked like they were going all out is Undyne, and even then we didn't really stick around to see how bad it got, did we? Interesting to think about.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 21:22
|
|
|
Zanzibar Ham posted:Also maybe they would think of a better name than Sariel or Tons. Skeletor.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 21:24
|
|
|
Zanzibar Ham posted:Also maybe they would think of a better name than Sariel or Tons. Toriel is waaaaaay too old for Sans but the obvious choice here is "Arial"
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 21:26
|
|
|
Rorahusky posted:I can't see them getting back together to be honest, though at least it seems like they eventually mend their fences at least a bit, if only for Frisk's sake. It is a bit difficult to say "sorry I murdered several people as a prelude to the genocide of an entire sapient species while simultaneously being a huge weenie about it" in any kind of meaningful way. They don't sell that card at Hallmark.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 21:26
|
|
|
Valgaav posted:Ahahaha oh boy. Toby actually gets frustrated at ZUN and Touhou because they share a musical aesthetic, so his music keeps coming out like Touhou music. It's not intentional, and he actually made a tumblr post about how easy it is to make 'touhou-sounding' music with his usual soundfont. Personally I always felt like Heartache(from the Toriel fight) was the one that sounded really Touhou-y. EDIT: And I don't know, I like to imagine that Toriel and Asgore at least ended up friends again. I mean, Asgore's just too much of a big, fuzzy goober for anyone to stay angry at. PurpleXVI fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Oct 26, 2015 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 21:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 14, 2024 07:44 |
|
|
idonotlikepeas posted:They don't sell that card at Hallmark. Maybe they should!
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2015 21:29
|
|