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BenRGamer posted:It's different here, though, you have to actively make the conscious choice to go down the Genocide path, and you have to continue to make that choice. There are alternatives available--many alternatives. It's unique to this medium, and it's where this game succeeds at what Spec Ops failed to do with it's one path. Oh for sure. I'm just saying that if you want to discourage people from playing the game like that you should probably try by not giving them different content for them to experience by doing so. If it didn't change anything aside from how everyone dies and there was no Undyne the Undying and people running away from you and Papyrus still trying to fight you with his 'pull the rug out from under you bone attacks' People would probably quit by the end of Snowdin because there's no difference between the two aside from forty minutes of grinding on one part. Or, you could give them a choice with a timer of two weeks or something if you really want to discourage people from doing it. Or, even better, don't make the content in the first place! Sentient Data posted:I know it's probably hyperbole, but don't forget that real life also has different content if you go on a genocidal rampage Let's not get started on real life because that thing has too much available content for any non-immortal to ever experience on their own.
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Nov 7, 2015 07:44
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RareAcumen posted:Oh for sure. I'm just saying that if you want to discourage people from playing the game like that you should probably try by not giving them different content for them to experience by doing so. If it didn't change anything aside from how everyone dies and there was no Undyne the Undying and people running away from you and Papyrus still trying to fight you with his 'pull the rug out from under you bone attacks' People would probably quit by the end of Snowdin because there's no difference between the two aside from forty minutes of grinding on one part. Or, you could give them a choice with a timer of two weeks or something if you really want to discourage people from doing it. Or, even better, don't make the content in the first place! Three things, first, not making the content in the first place is missing the point, just like not having the fight command would make having to choose to be pacifist a much weaker experience, not having a genocide route counter to the pacifist route would make that a weaker experience as well. Second, honestly, if the game wants to teach that completionism is bad, it has to give that impression--there's nothing to learn if there's no adversity, et cetera. Last thing, I'd posit that there isn't 'different content' in terms of the story. The Pacifist run tells a complete story, no real loose ends. The stuff you find out in the genocide route, ending aside, is superflous and could have easily been inferred.
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Nov 7, 2015 07:58
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BenRGamer posted:Second, honestly, if the game wants to teach that completionism is bad, it has to give that impression--there's nothing to learn if there's no adversity, et cetera. Well, I mean the world was wiped out, you are locked of the game forever and have to sell your soul at the moment. I'd say that's a pretty good impression of discouraging that completinist mindset. Not to mention, there is no 100% reward for completing the Genocide route. edit: quotation mistakes ArcadePark fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Nov 7, 2015 |
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Nov 7, 2015 08:17
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ArcadePark posted:I'd say that's a pretty good impression of discouraging that completinist mindset. Not to mention, there is no 100% reward for completing the Genocide route. There is absolutely a 100% reward for completing the Genocide route. Seeing the scenes with Flowey, seeing "Prof" at the end, even possibly the Sans fight if you enjoy hard battles. Mostly the scenes with Flowey - those give some very interesting and important backstory and you don't see them without making a lot of dust.
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Nov 7, 2015 08:53
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BenRGamer posted:Three things, first, not making the content in the first place is missing the point, just like not having the fight command would make having to choose to be pacifist a much weaker experience, not having a genocide route counter to the pacifist route would make that a weaker experience as well. 1. How? How does releasing a form of gameplay and then going 'But I don't want anyone to play it' work in any respect? It may weaken the game sure, but I don't think that'd be unreasonable if the game was trying to say that violence is bad. It'd be heavy-handed though, sure. Like if the game had snipes towards you anytime you selected the Fight option and praise for whenever you went to Mercy. 2. So then there is a point to doing it after all? 3. What do you mean there isn't different content? You're literally doing the opposite of the pacifist playthrough and it rewards you with new bosses to fight and Disgaea-level outputs of damage as well. Even if it is superflous it's still more content. ArcadePark posted:Well, I mean the world was wiped out, you are locked of the game forever and have to sell your soul at the moment. It had some good fights and we got to get Flowey's full deal straight from him. And found out that despite however many times he's reset the world down here he can still find it himself to feel emotions depending on the circumstances. Fear of the player or sadness when kindness was offered and he realized it didn't make him feel anything. And hey, they're all choices, the game did offer you the decision of selling your soul or not. If it really bothered you that much then you're free to go look up what people have datamined and delete the necessary files to restore the game to a clean slate.
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Nov 7, 2015 09:09
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The way youse guys are talking about stuff is not particularly subtle; it might be appreciated if you dialed it back a bit just to avoid giving anything away by accident.
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Nov 7, 2015 09:41
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Augus posted:As someone who doesn't get these esoteric references, I'd like to say that from where I'm sitting you guys look like a bunch of loons Seeking Mr. Eaten's Name is a (currently being reworked) quest (of sorts) in the browser-based semi-mmo Fallen London. When it was available, players were able to, through a series of actions, (originally it could only be started by getting a gift from the Mr. Eaten account and then losing such an item in PVP, but later various other ways of starting it were made available) embark on a quest to learn the name of Mr. Eaten, and then tattoo it onto themselves. For some, it was payment for a gift, but other only did it because they could. This is not as easy and worthwhile of a task as it sounds, as Mr. Eaten is implied to be a former member of the leaders of the game's setting who was betrayed, trapped in a well somewhere to the NORTH, and at some point became some kind of eldritch abomination. The game itself repeatedly warned players not to continue, and that nothing good would come of it, and indeed, no reward for progress was ever seen (other than content), and progress was made, by, among other things, massive permanent stat loss, the loss of many extremely expensive items, being betrayed by other players, dying and going to prison seven times each, literally defiling one's soul so much that devils refuse to take it even if paid, and spending seventy seven+ turns sitting and meditating while trying not to die or go insane and then having to start mediating all over again. There were various points where the game gave players the choice to stop the search without consequence, and at times the narration seemed to plead with the player. So yeah, a bit more extreme than the genocide route of this game, but there are definitely parallels.
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Nov 7, 2015 09:45
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Fates End posted:Seeking Mr. Eaten's Name is a (currently being reworked) quest (of sorts) in the browser-based semi-mmo Fallen London. When it was available, players were able to, through a series of actions, (originally it could only be started by getting a gift from the Mr. Eaten account and then losing such an item in PVP, but later various other ways of starting it were made available) embark on a quest to learn the name of Mr. Eaten, and then tattoo it onto themselves. For some, it was payment for a gift, but other only did it because they could. I went to dig up the post where the designer talked about how that content went out of control and needed to be shut down and reworked, and this paragraph jumped out at me: Alexis Kennedy posted:In the early days of Fallen London, we added an experimental storyline. It gave the player the option of developing a ghastly obsession which would ruin their character’s life, requiring savage ordeals that chewed up their abilities and resources. It was initially very popular, and then as we tightened the screws and people realised we meant the warnings that no good would come of it, only the most determined stuck with it. Italics theirs, boldface mine. Determination. Er, right. Undertale! I've greatly enjoyed this LP. I'm looking forward to seeing the corners of the game in this next run. I'm astonished the game has gotten the level of aggressive play and analysis in so incredibly short a time, but I can't say the attention is undeserved.
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Nov 7, 2015 10:11
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Deadmeat5150 posted:I'm only on the third update. kw0134 posted:Protip3: Seal yourself in a cave and play without any further spoilers. This is really the best advice that can be given. I kept reading the LP after I started playing, and while I've definitely enjoyed both the LP and playing the game, I can't help but think that it'd have been better going through it mostly blind.
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Nov 7, 2015 10:40
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 Welcome back! It's time for the LP's victory lap, where I show off as much side content as possible in a single third run. But first, I'll need to pick a new name.  Hmm...  Nah.  Nah.  Nah.  Nah.  Nah.  Nah.  Nah.  Nah.  Nah.  Nah.  Nah.  Nah.  Nah.  Nah.  Nah.  There we go!  Things are going to be a little different.   This part is the same, at least.   Do not worry, I have labelled the ones that you need to flip. ...eh? It seems that the labelling has worn away. Oh dear. This might be far more challenging than I anticipated... The puzzle is the same, but the markings are gone. Do you know why? Because we're on HARD MODE.  Just for fun, I'll mess with this dummy a bit.  I choose Spare about a million times.    ... The next room awaits. The next bit is normal.  Time to set out on my own.  I exhaust the candy bowl of candies. There's one less than normal.  BGM: Stronger Monsters  This is where Hard Mode really picks up. The basic enemies are replaced with their versions from the end of the game!  The strategies for the monsters are the same as they were in the Core. Whimsalot is stopped by Pray, and Froggit is stopped by Mystify.  I clear the first fight with minimal damage.  The puzzles from here on are the same, though.  There's a trick to Astigmatism I didn't mention on my first run! On his first turn, he says either "Pick on me" or "Don't pick on me" randomly. Whichever it is, that's what you have to do.  Already taking heavy damage, I eat the first of my monster candies.  Made it to the save point alive!  Napstablook is, as far as I can tell, totally unchanged.  I'll need some better items down the road here.  But there's three monsters in the Ruins that don't have Core equivalents!  Options are Hiss, Devour, and Snack.  They're a lot like Vegetoids in terms of attacks, but they're a lot more dangerous. Strategy is the same, too. I Snack.  I'll take it!  Unfortunately, the faster bullets makes snagging the green one harder.  Several tries and another monster candy later, I manage to eat enough snakes to pacify them both.  I'm going to need more pastries.  No way am I getting through this dungeon without superior armor.  Moldessa replaces Moldsmal!  They're not too powerful, but...  It IS three against one. Options are Lie Down, Switch and Fix.  Fix stops the face from rotating, and readies the monster for Sparing.  Once Moldessa stops fighting, she looks super creepy!  I deal with the first two, then I Switch the third.  No effect on the battle, but it changes the shapes on her face.  As their numbers drop, the remaining enemies get more intense, as usual. I Lie Down.  No effect. I fix her face and move on.  Puzzles proceed as before.  Migospel replaces Migosp!  It fights in much the same way as its weaker self.  There's more bugs, but they're still basically doing the same thing.  A bit more morose at the end, though.  And that's the Ruins.  No butterscotch-cinnamon pie for me. The Snail Pie restores all of your HP... minus one.  What if I ignore Toriel completely, and just head down here myself?   And I'm taken back upstairs. But I'll go back down again.  It is dangerous to play here. It is drafty here. You will catch a cold. It is dusty here. You will catch a cough. There is nothing to see here. Do you want to read a book? I do not like the game you are playing. Why not go for a walk in the yard? Really now. This is where the new dialogue runs out.  Next, the normal method.   Video: A hard battle BGM: Heartache The fight is... honestly, pretty much the same. All her attacks do 5 damage even with the Ribbon equipped, though.  Just for fun, I'll show off another way this fight can end.  I wait until she's stopped attacking... Then I attack.  BGM: Silence   ...at my most vulnerable moment... To think I was worried you wouldn't fit in out there... Eheheheheh!!! You really are no different than them! Ha... ha... BGM: Dogsong   Eh?? You are ending it NOW? And on such a dramatic moment...? That's the difficult part. Not the bullets. But, accepting that it's all over... But there WILL be more, will there not? Maybe. Knowing the answer is... ...HARD. ...  Aren't you supposed to be dying or something? Well. What is the point of that now? What will you do instead...? Hmmm. Perhaps I will bake another pie. The last one ended up a little burnt. I thought it was good. Theoretically. It's not like I ate it all while you were fighting. Hey! Hey! Can I have some pie! You are just going to eat it all... I can helllp!!! Snoring on the floor is NOT help. I'm not snoring, I'm cheering you on in my sleep! ... Don't you have anything better to do?  THE END...?
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Nov 7, 2015 12:27
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To be clear: That was not the end of run 3. This is the beginning of run 3! It looks like I won't be able to get an update up tomorrow. If you've enjoyed the LP so far, please consider donating to charity.
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Nov 7, 2015 12:29
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Oh good, you showed this. I could never get past the area with the three switches, the onslaught of Moldessas was too much for me to power through. Love the ending here. 
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Nov 7, 2015 12:34
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Um, isn't there a BIT more to Hard Mode? I could swear I got some more dialogue at the end there. Maybe that's only if you spare Toriel or wait around or something?
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Nov 7, 2015 13:13
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If there's more, show it off in postgame
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Nov 7, 2015 13:15
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ProfessorProf posted:
This seems like the perfect thing to emptyquote. It can take determination to keep going in the face of adversity. But sometimes it takes even more determination to leave something well enough alone.
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Nov 7, 2015 13:22
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Reminds me of the original Kirby game, it had a hard mode with all different enemies. Although it was a whole game mode rather than just one level.
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Nov 7, 2015 13:29
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KataraniSword posted:This seems like the perfect thing to emptyquote. 
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Nov 7, 2015 13:31
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Rangpur posted:In a world where Asgore goes through with it right away, he becomes a generic JRPG end boss right down to the last-minute backstory dump that sheds some light on his motives without ever once making you want to turn around and leave the final dungeon without beating him. Because of course you don't, he's the drat thing King of All Monsters who hunts humanity nigh unto extinction. And yet this is still seen as a superior path? The thing is that no one ever really says Asgore has to go and KILL more humans. He can find humans that are dying already, lurk outside a hospital or visit Detroit or some poo poo, and collect THOSE souls. For that matter, he doesn't even have to be secretive or shady about it; if he goes about things just right he could probably find some humans receptive to bringing down the barrier and letting monsterkind out into the sun again for a peaceable coexistence (in a different village, of course, where they didn't have the sight of one with a human corpse in its arms fresh in their memory), and enlist them as ambassadors to arrange for loaner souls. But everyone involved (including most of the audience, it looks like) seems to have assumed that to get human souls, Asgore will have to kill them directly. I think this is the significant detail of Asgore's plan: not that it's passive, but that it's indirect. He didn't commit to personally killing seven humans, taking their souls, and breaking down the barrier; he didn't even decree that if a human was caught in the Underground it was to be brought to him to be executed; he just said, any human that falls into the Underground is to be put to death and their soul brought to the barrier in preparation for the time when we have seven of them and can breach the barrier. The barrier which is at the far side of the cavern from the only other entry point into the Underground. That means that any human who falls into the Underground is going to have to theoretically get past literally every monster in the kingdom before ever reaching Asgore. Statistically speaking, Asgore shouldn't ever have to get his hands dirty on this one (according to some theorycrafting I've seen it mostly worked; supposedly, the general locations where you get the equipment upgrades are where that particular human died, meaning Asgore is personally responsible for a maximum of one human death out of six). Even wracked with grief and rage at the death of his children, Asgore can't muster up the destructive will to harm another living being if he can possibly find an out; that's the truth of Asgore's moral cowardice, that as long as he personally doesn't commit the deed, he thinks he can't really be held responsible for what his people did. Now, think about what everyone loves about their king. Right! That he's the Nicest loving Guy In The Whole loving World. Or as Papyrus puts it: a Big Fuzzy Pushover. Asgore has the willpower of a three-year-old on LSD (side note: do not give toddlers LSD) and cannot say "no" unless the alternative is to say "no" to something more forceful. When you show up in his throne room, he has his own nonviolent beliefs telling him to offer you a cup of tea, and (in his head at least, since you've made friends with most of them by now) an entire kingdom telling him to put his money where his mouth is and set them free. He only fights Frisk because a long string of decisions based on the fact that he doesn't have the gumption to say, "No, this is wrong," has forced him into a situation where the alternative to saying "No, this is wrong," is to violate his most strongly-held belief, and attacking a child is still easier for him than to stand up for himself. That sounds very judgmental but to be honest I feel a lot of sympathy for him; at a time when no one would have been surprised if he said "gently caress everything" he tried to stick to his principles the best way he could, and it's just kind of unfortunate that the solution he came up with was sort of cowardly and demonstrated a mild lack of certain other principles. I also was chatting with a friend a little bit ago who pointed out that Toriel isn't exactly pure as the driven snow here, either; it's abundantly clear that, at literally any point, she could have put her foot down and Asgore would have rolled over like a dog. Setting aside the fact that Chara's little scheme was a secret and they weren't expecting Asriel to take his soul, at literally any other point after Asriel and Chara's death she could have told him exactly what she told him at the end of the pacifist run and he would have done it on the spot. Instead, she divorced him and exiled herself in disgust, expecting her Big Fuzzy Pushover to just give up this whole war thing with the entire kingdom calling for human blood. It's not until Frisk has pretty much solved the problem anyway that she even bothers. It's not quite on the same scale as Asgore's sins in the whole thing but we both agreed that it was a nice touch that neither "side" was entirely right and the narrative didn't really vilify anyone for their honest mistakes. RareAcumen posted:1. How? How does releasing a form of gameplay and then going 'But I don't want anyone to play it' work in any respect? It may weaken the game sure, but I don't think that'd be unreasonable if the game was trying to say that violence is bad. It'd be heavy-handed though, sure. Like if the game had snipes towards you anytime you selected the Fight option and praise for whenever you went to Mercy. In order for a choice to have meaning, you have to be able to make a choice. Let's say I strap you into a device that prevents you from feeding yourself (I'm the guy from Saw for some reason) and put you in a room with two pieces of fruit and a monkey, and tell you that you can give the monkey one piece of fruit. When the monkey eats, your mask feeds you. If you choose the poisoned fruit, the monkey will die, but you get to take off the mask. If you give the monkey the clean fruit, you have to live with the monkey and care for it for the rest of her life, since your mealtimes are contingent on hers. Freedom at the expense of an innocent life, or else up to a decade or two of caring for a monkey depending on the species I chose. The choice is entirely yours. That doesn't make both of them equally correct choices. I Do Not Want You To Kill That Monkey. After you have made your choice, I will inform you of, and enact, phase two of my freakish, sadistic little moral test. If you choose the poisoned piece of fruit I will harass you for the rest of your life reminding you that you chose to kill an innocent monkey to escape a moderate inconvenience rather than waiting a few years for the monkey to die of old age. I will tell all your friends about your monkey-murdering ways. I will devote my weekends to finding new consequences to make you comprehend that killing the monkey was morally wrong. Contrastingwise, if you spare the monkey I will provide for you everything necessary to ensure that "I physically cannot feed myself and must instead feed the monkey if I want lunch" is the only effect the mask has on you; mask maintenance, vet bills, training the monkey, the works. As far as monkey satisfaction goes you are set for life, and after a happy monkey life, when the monkey passes on, the mask comes off and you never see or hear from me again. But now let's say I only gave you one fruit; in every particular the exercise is the same, down to the consequences of the monkey's fate. We'll say I didn't tamper with the fruit. So the monkey lives, you spend a decade keeping a monkey, I vanish after removing the mask and you can forget about me. But the monkey was always going to live, you literally didn't have the capacity to poison the monkey because there was nothing in the room to poison it with. You made no choice, no noble sacrifice in your own life for the sake of an innocent monkey. You would have gotten exactly the same results if you were a literal Catholic saint or Milford Muldoon the Monkey-strangling Maniac. This does not put Milford on the level of the saint. So it is with Undertale. Without the no mercy run, nothing in the pacifism run has any meaning. If you were literally unable to kill anyone, the part where the game goes, "You didn't kill anyone, good job!" is just a participation trophy. Nobody, except nobody, thinks participation trophies are in any way rewarding or meaningful. None of the metafictional stuff matters either; for that matter none of it really happens in the first place because, lacking the option to do anything different from one run to the next, the prospect of a reset goes from terrifying (will this time be a killing spree? Or are we safe for one more go-around?) to tedious for those as are even aware of any such thing going on. That doesn't mean Toby wanted no mercy to be any fun; he had a very clear message with this game and making no mercy an enjoyable experience would have gone against that (which, from a writers' perspective, means that going out of his way to avoid that was actually rather brilliant). Dr. Buttass fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Nov 7, 2015 |
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Nov 7, 2015 14:40
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Dr. Buttass posted:The thing is that no one ever really says Asgore has to go and KILL more humans. He can find humans that are dying already, lurk outside a hospital or visit Detroit or some poo poo, and collect THOSE souls. For that matter, he doesn't even have to be secretive or shady about it; if he goes about things just right he could probably find some humans receptive to bringing down the barrier and letting monsterkind out into the sun again for a peaceable coexistence (in a different village, of course, where they didn't have the sight of one with a human corpse in its arms fresh in their memory), and enlist them as ambassadors to arrange for loaner souls. But everyone involved (including most of the audience, it looks like) seems to have assumed that to get human souls, Asgore will have to kill them directly You are way more optimistic about people just handing over human souls then i am, If a giant beast wondered into a hospital asking for the souls of the departed, the response i would expect the least is "sure, let me just walk you to the dying's corpse, don't mind thier mourning family over there." Qrr posted:There is absolutely a 100% reward for completing the Genocide route. Seeing the scenes with Flowey, seeing "Prof" at the end, even possibly the Sans fight if you enjoy hard battles. Mostly the scenes with Flowey - those give some very interesting and important backstory and you don't see them without making a lot of dust. ProfessorProf posted:
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Nov 7, 2015 15:48
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"I'm just doing this because I HAVE to know what happens."
Ha ha ha... What an excuse!
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Hey, good enough for God.
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Nov 7, 2015 15:54
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All Asgore would have to do would be to find six homeless people, offer them lives of luxury in the underground on the condition of helping to open the barrier after they died, then wait for them to die of natural causes. It would still be much faster than waiting for people to fall down. (Going by the fact that most monsters don't realise Frisk is human, the last human probably fell down outside of living memory for anyone except Asriel, Toriel and maybe Gerson.)
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Nov 7, 2015 15:54
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is always messing with someone, huh?
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Nov 7, 2015 16:44
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ProfessorProf posted:If there's more, show it off in postgame But it's the best part of Hard Mode
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Nov 7, 2015 16:49
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Good thread title change.
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Nov 7, 2015 16:53
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BenRGamer posted:But it's the best part of Hard Mode Then I'm sure you'll really enjoy showing it off in the postgame
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Nov 7, 2015 17:12
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Tofu Survivor posted:Man I can't believe Slowbeef did a stream and I missed it. His blind playthrough of the Prime trilogy was what got me into LPs (and to buy an SA account) in the first place. His genocide run is on his youtube at youtubes.co.uk/slowbeef
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Nov 7, 2015 17:39
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Dr. Buttass posted:That doesn't mean Toby wanted no mercy to be any fun; he had a very clear message with this game and making no mercy an enjoyable experience would have gone against that (which, from a writers' perspective, means that going out of his way to avoid that was actually rather brilliant). Actually, when the game first came out and a streamer managed to reach the Sans fight, Toby liked that they didn't stop having fun with it even though it took them several hours to go through it. He didn't intend for it to be completely unenjoyable.
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Nov 7, 2015 17:58
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Imagine a hard mode version of Sans. You can start crying now
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Nov 7, 2015 18:20
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Augus posted:Imagine a hard mode version of Sans. I imagine in hard mode Sans would replace Papyrus.
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Nov 7, 2015 18:30
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Hard mode ends where it did because Sans never made the promise to Toriel.
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Nov 7, 2015 18:38
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Hard Mode continues by fighting the temptation to bother Toby with requests to finish up Hard Mode. I bet plenty of people have failed already...
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Nov 7, 2015 18:45
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Tenebrais posted:I imagine in hard mode Sans would replace Papyrus. And instead of giving US a Bad Time, he would have Lots. Of. Fun.
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Nov 7, 2015 18:52
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my dad posted:Hard mode ends where it did because Sans never made the promise to Toriel. *Human. *Turn Around and shake my hand. *Well hey, looks like you were expecting that. *That's.... a problem. *Die.
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Nov 7, 2015 19:17
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I don't think you'd be able to make a harder/more creative version of the Sans fight because it already breaks so many standard RPG rules. The most you could do is make attacks longer, I guess?
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Nov 7, 2015 19:39
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Just go back to the original version, where menu bones could kill.
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Nov 7, 2015 19:42
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my dad posted:Hard mode ends where it did because Sans never made the promise to Toriel. you would be subjected to the most insanely difficult crossword puzzles.
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Nov 7, 2015 19:48
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:I don't think you'd be able to make a harder/more creative version of the Sans fight because it already breaks so many standard RPG rules. Well New attack patterns, more Red/Blue switching during attacks, reversed controls during a red phase (this one's evil).
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Nov 7, 2015 20:19
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Manuel Calavera posted:And instead of giving US a Bad Time, he would have Lots. Of. Fun. Actually not a big fan of that take. It feels like trying a bit too hard.
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Nov 7, 2015 20:47
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Flesnolk posted:Actually not a big fan of that take. It feels like trying a bit too hard. That applies to the Genocide Papyrus concept in general, to me. Kind of takes away the most interesting bit of Papyrus' character. On the other hand, I remember a bunch of people spitballing about how a true Geno Papyrus would have an entire elaborate moveset that revolved around trying to Friendship your rear end into submission and that sounds hilarious.
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Nov 7, 2015 20:49
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YggiDee posted:Just go back to the original version, where menu bones could kill.
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Nov 7, 2015 20:52
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