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CobiWann posted:
Is everyone else reading the fifteen times like this? My take on the Fifteen times is that the Doctor Redid his argument and monologue fifteen times, until he got it right and convinced both sides that the peace is the answer. The room can't wipe the whole worlds memory of a Zygon uprising. It can wipe only those who are physically in the room, thus 15 retakes of the argument. Basically Doctor Save-Scummed all the dialogue options for the win.
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Nov 9, 2015 00:47
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Jerusalem posted:There's a Big Finish deal on Zygon stories, let's just read up what they're all abou- The worst subspecies is still the Zygoons.
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Nov 9, 2015 00:51
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Do they have spaceships to take them somewhere else? Do they have somewhere to go? It's a classic Hobson's Choice, one that industry owners and the like have abused through all of history. "Sure, this job may be unsafe and you may be paid a pittance and only in money you can only spend in shops I own, but you're free to go and starve if you want". Were you in favour of Don't Ask, Don't Tell as well? They probably don't have working spaceships, because their original invasion was 500 hundred years ago, remember? They got to Elizabethan England, where they could easily conquer the primitive locals, but they didn't like it because it was too primitive. So they hid in paintings and waited for iPods to be invented. The invading Zygons didn't want their own planet. The Doctor could have transported them all to that planet where he dropped off the dinosaurs or some other planet that hasn't been colonized as of 2015, but that isn't what they want. They don't want them and their 20 million children to have to start building civilization from scratch as subsistence farmers on an uninhabited planet. They want a world with power plants, metallurgy, and maybe even the chance at spacecraft again in the next 100 years. Who knows, maybe the ones who arrived here didn't have any surviving engineers or scientists, so they need our engineers and inventors not just our dirtball. Their goal was conquest. The baby Zygons were born here and had nothing to do with any of that. But as a whole Zygons aren't innocent victims of human xenophobia.
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Nov 9, 2015 00:53
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adhuin posted:Is everyone else reading the fifteen times like this? That's amazing. I bet you're right.
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Nov 9, 2015 00:54
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The entire issue was because the zygons were lazy. "We could rebulid a new homeworld, but.....  "
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Nov 9, 2015 00:58
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adhuin posted:Is everyone else reading the fifteen times like this? I read it like you did immediately and thought maybe I had missed some dialog when reading the thread and seeing everybody acting like this meant there were 15 different uprisings.
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Nov 9, 2015 01:21
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"One of those buttons will release the imbecile's gas." Oh Harry.
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Nov 9, 2015 01:33
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Jerusalem posted:The point is that there are two Osgoods - one is definitely a Zygon, the other one MIGHT be a Zygon OR a human, and that is the important thing. They can't judge her/dismiss her as "one of them" because she might be one of their own - Is she a human saying all this nice stuff about cooperation/togetherness or is she a Zygon? They don't know, and that is important, and as Osgood says she'll only reveal which she is when the answer is no longer important, when all humans and Zygons look at each other as equals and not "us vs them". Well, and the other thing is, they're twins. How are you going to know which is which after they wander off from talking to the doctor? They could just change outfits or just wear a different one like Six's coat. Either of them could be the Zygon Osgood. Anyone could be. You could be! It's you, isn't it? TELL ME WHERE THE BOXES ARE!
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Nov 9, 2015 01:40
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remusclaw posted:I read it like you did immediately and thought maybe I had missed some dialog when reading the thread and seeing everybody acting like this meant there were 15 different uprisings. I thought it was ambiguous 
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Nov 9, 2015 01:47
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Well , it is ambiguous, he didn't go into the details, so it could be either. The 15 different uprisings reading leaves a lot more questions unanswered, but it's Doctor Who, you wont know which reading is correct until Big Finish get's its hands on it.
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Nov 9, 2015 01:56
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adhuin posted:Basically Doctor Save-Scummed all the dialogue options for the win. I love this quote so much. It could be taken either way. 15 times in a row could explain the Doctor's frustration and anguish just pouring out of him. But the casual, flippant way he says it could also mean "oh for gently caress's sake, it's been a week and we're back here?"
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Nov 9, 2015 02:02
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Or it could be joke from a Man trying to relieve some of the tension in the room.
remusclaw fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Nov 9, 2015 |
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Nov 9, 2015 02:06
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OldMemes posted:The entire issue was because the zygons were lazy. That kind of depends on which Zygons survived the disaster that lost them their homeworld. We never see exact numbers, but it looks like there are no more than a few hundred Zygon adults in the initial invasion. If the surviving adults were all soldiers and arts majors* then they may not have the skills to rebuild a technologically advanced civilization. Then they hatch out their 20 million babies, who without a sapient species to imprint on have no education or skills of their own. On an uninhabited world they'd be thrown back to iron age subsistence farming. Survival is not assured. *Not a dis against arts majors. The only particularly advanced tech we see them use in the initial invasion is the timelord art. It's possible the entire invasion was planned and executed by the staff of a gallery or museum. They escaped the homeworld with a single ship, a dormant brood and a bunch of timelord art and tried to make the best of things.
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Nov 9, 2015 02:27
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So I thought last week's episode wasn't nearly as bad as everyone made it out to be. I thought it included subtle hints that the Zygon extremists weren't the monsters they were made out to be. As it turns out, those hints are all we've got because this episode just moved on. And that's fine. Personally I thought those bits about the Zygon child being attacked do a good job of "humanizing" the Zygon splinter group. And in the end the Doctor gave an incredible speech about forgiveness and the futility and stupidity of war. That was also great. That speech would have been a lot more impactful if he hadn't just said "Who cares? Grow up!" to all their concerns and then flown off at the end having done nothing do address them. Why is he making a big show of forgiving them and saying "I've been there" if they were apparently just idiotic children in his mind? He had pretty drat good reasons for (nearly) pressing his button. He thought the universe might be destroyed by his own people (if not the Daleks) if he didn't. He had a tough choice to make. But he's not acknowledging that at all in the Zygons. He doesn't care that they have issues. He barely knows what the issues are. He doesn't say "you're going about this the wrong way" he says "everyone's got problems, grow up." I think whoever it was that brought up the media aspect of things gets why this conclusion is rubbing me the wrong way. There are issues out there- people without power are subject to terrible things. And that's ignored. If people with power who are subject to terrible things resort to violence, then the violence is the story, not the power structures that drove them to violence. It's just a viscerally more acceptable narrative to someone who is in a comfortable situation. Structural issues and power imbalances are abstractly uncomfortable, violence is outrageous. The Doctor spent all his time decrying violence, and violence is indeed worth decrying, but the losers in the status quo have heard that already. So many times. "I don't really care about your problems, but your methods are really unacceptable!" is not a message that would resonate with these people. I get that the Doctor was talking about himself on some level, and his own need for forgiveness, and the whole thing was actually really poignant from that perspective. He's not trying to justify anything anymore, he's just left with the violence and the guilt, and so he is mostly concerned with forgiveness. That's not where the Zygons are though. There is an issue that they thought to be important enough to kill tons of people... and the Doctor saying "who cares?" is not going to make them go "huh... maybe he's right". I mean, besides that having questionable connotations, it just wasn't convincing. Honestly, I guess I've forgiven worse. This scenario had the potential to be really incredible, but it turned out it was interested in other stuff and left important aspects of the situation hanging. But it did do the other stuff really well, so I can honestly say I still enjoyed it, with major caveats. I think it's really interesting how much more positive people are about this episode than the first one. Ideologically, they're more or less the same, but way more people are defending this one. I bet it's just because it was more fun/had more Capaldi shouting (same thing).
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Nov 9, 2015 02:29
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this episode had some moments that could've made it great: Clara's mental world portraying her connection to "bonnie" and her negotiation with her, the grotesque visual of the zygon not-fully human form like a person with some kind of horrible sucker leprosy, the idea of the Osgood box. Last episode did not have anything interesting to show like that. The electrified hair remains were stupid, the soldiers surrendering to their mother was stupid, and everything else was just particularly unexcited and tepid.
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Nov 9, 2015 02:35
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Acne Rain posted:the soldiers surrendering to their mother was stupid It was stupid. I'm not sure a soldier shooting his mother while she begs for her life would have been better though. Not a great message for kids. Then again "don't listen to your mother, she is probably just going to lure you into a church and kill you" isn't a great message for kids either.
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Nov 9, 2015 02:42
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Chokes McGee posted:Well, and the other thing is, they're twins. How are you going to know which is which after they wander off from talking to the doctor? They could just change outfits or just wear a different one like Six's coat. That's a very good point - hell for all we know the Osgood the Doctor is initially talking to at the end is Bonnie, and the second one is just the first already making efforts to prevent anybody from leaping to judgement over identity/species (and that's why she doesn't know what TARDIS stands for!  ).Chokes McGee posted:TELL ME WHERE THE BOXES ARE! But enough direct quotes from Philip Morris' awkward dinner with Robert Mugabe.
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Nov 9, 2015 02:55
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I think there's at least one thing we can all agree on; Peter Harness should never be let near a Doctor Who episode ever again. Or any other TV show, for that matter.
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Nov 9, 2015 03:59
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I think there's at least one thing we can all agree on; I don't agree to that at all.
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Nov 9, 2015 04:01
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I'd argue he needs to work closely with another writer - whether that be Moffat or not. He introduces a lot of worthy ideas/concepts, he just so far hasn't handled writing around them particularly well. I actually wouldn't mind seeing him working with Gatiss, as both have a history of Who stories that feel somewhat incomplete/just need a little more work done on them. Then again, Gatiss' last couple of stories have been pretty drat good v v
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Nov 9, 2015 04:07
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Caught up with the last two episodes, everything was worth it for that scene with the Doctor in the Black Archive. Capaldi really knocked that out of the park. The entire first part was kind of terrible though, and I agree with whoever said it probably could have been better as a single episode story.
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Nov 9, 2015 04:16
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adhuin posted:Is everyone else reading the fifteen times like this? Ah yeah, I thought it was 15 uprisings or something at first, but that makes much more sense. It also explains why the Doctor's speech was so heartfelt and convincing (aside from it just being the Doctor), he'd been practicing it a bunch. On the other hand, he says that about her comment on how she can't forget that the boxes are empty, and that seems like the kind of thing you only realize after the Doctor's convinced you not to use the drat things anyway. By the way, kudos for coming to a far more sensible interpretation than most reviewers who literally analyze Doctor Who episodes as part of earning their daily (hy)bread. I do wonder about the Doctor's comment about thinking she'd been dead for a month though, I think we're meant to assume that it just felt like ages to him but with Doctor Who you never know  . It's certainly a notch in the theory that Clara's already dead or has gone through some crazy trauma, and we're seeing the Doctor catch up with her before it happened, but then again you can throw that theory out for any companion at any time, particularly with the whole River relationship opening the door to time-disordered shenanigans.This episode definitely didn't fix the issues with the first part, but I got a kick out of Capaldi putting a pretty bad script on his back and just carrying it all on his own to ensure there's at least one truly solid part in there. I mean, that speech had to be written too, but that was a Moffat speech if I've ever heard one, so still no credit to Harness in my mind. Jerusalem posted:On an unrelated note, anyone else think it was pretty lovely of the Doctor and Osgood to abandon that captive Zygon, the pilot and presumably the commander and whatever soldiers she had left who might have been onboard to die in the plane explosion? Again, I think that was more a matter of the writer forgetting about them once their scenes were done - Harness tackles some interesting issues which in turn get some fun discussion going, but unfortunately I think his reach exceeds his grasp. That was my first thought when that sucker blew up, like "Great the Doctor and Osgood lived, guess the pilot, crew, and soldiers are just poo poo outta luck! Chalk it up alongside the casual murder of Unit Soldiers, random humans in London being swept up by a dude, and literally an entire New Mexico town as things that just don't matter. NowonSA fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Nov 9, 2015 |
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Nov 9, 2015 05:11
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I assumed (and still assume) that the "15 times before" line was that some form of this situation (maybe human driven, maybe Zygon driven, maybe a mixture of both etc) had happened a number of times before - the idea that it was 15 times in a row in that one scene has merit in the sense of the Doctor just refusing to let war break out, but I think it's a stretch. The information as presented though means it can easily be seen either way. On the other hand, I didn't buy into the whole,"Clara is/was dead!" thing at all this season, and was wondering where the hell people were getting it from until this episode. The Doctor's line about it being a month and that HE was the judge of time gave me the sense that she did indeed die in some unseen adventure, and the after a month of grieving the Doctor decided gently caress it and broke the rules, and he knows it's going to come back and bite him on the rear end. The whole hybrid thing I kinda hope just goes away entirely 
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Nov 9, 2015 06:19
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Have you considered that by a month it might've been subjective time, rather than something literal?
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Nov 9, 2015 06:25
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It's clearly meant to be "it felt like a month to me" but I wouldn't put it past Moffat for it no be a coy reference to Clara being dead for a month and him reversing time to save her or something.
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Nov 9, 2015 06:33
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Have you considered that by a month it might've been subjective time, rather than something literal? Well.... yeah! That's the obvious surface meaning and exactly how Clara takes it because she is obviously talking about the events of this episode. She asks if he thought she was dead, he says it was the longest month of his life, she replies warmly that it was only a few minutes and he comes back with a significant look that he will be the judge of time. A complete surface reading of it is exactly as you say - subjectively it felt like a month to him before Osgood figured out she was still alive - and it is entirely possible that is exactly what it is, and there will be nothing more to come of it than that. I'm just saying that the way it was framed, the way he spoke and looked, indicated to me that they were talking about two completely different things. She was talking about the events of this episode, he was (maybe) talking about something we haven't seen/heard about yet. I get the feeling this season is going to end up filled with red-herrings (hopefully the HYBRID is one of them), this might just be another one of them. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Nov 9, 2015 |
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Nov 9, 2015 06:33
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2house2fly posted:It's clearly meant to be "it felt like a month to me" but I wouldn't put it past Moffat for it no be a coy reference to Clara being dead for a month and him reversing time to save her or something. I think he still hasn't figured out how to save her yet.
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Nov 9, 2015 06:36
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I just wanted to say, when thinking about it again, that Clara isn't necessarily brought into realizing that she's in a simulation/hallucination/dream of some kind because she's necessarily that smart, or because she gets a feeling, or anything like that. In fact, it's not really on her at all that she realizes what's going on. It was just really lovely at being convincing.
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Nov 9, 2015 07:38
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Cleretic posted:I just wanted to say, when thinking about it again, that Clara isn't necessarily brought into realizing that she's in a simulation/hallucination/dream of some kind because she's necessarily that smart, or because she gets a feeling, or anything like that. In fact, it's not really on her at all that she realizes what's going on. I'm surprised they didn't start playing Human Music.
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Nov 9, 2015 07:45
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Maxwell Lord posted:I'm surprised they didn't start playing Human Music. Hmmmm. I like it.
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Nov 9, 2015 08:15
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I'm currently watching Fringe for the first time, and I've got to the arc where Walter mentions Peter's death a few times before revealing the truth, so I've become a little sensitive to that sort of dialogue. This doesn't feel like that, and aside from this instance of 'a month/a couple of days' where are people pulling this Clara's dead thing from?
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Nov 9, 2015 08:28
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So did anyone else notice the tardis-style litter bin/trashcan just after the doctor and Osgood parachuted to safety? I got very distracted wondering if it was somehow a plot point but then realized I was probably way overthinking it.
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Nov 9, 2015 09:25
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The_Doctor posted:I'm currently watching Fringe for the first time, and I've got to the arc where Walter mentions Peter's death a few times before revealing the truth, so I've become a little sensitive to that sort of dialogue. This doesn't feel like that, and aside from this instance of 'a month/a couple of days' where are people pulling this Clara's dead thing from? I can't remember the specifics but there have been a few times where the doctor has given some weird wistful looks at Clara when she has talked about being around forever and the future and he has acted oddly when it comes to her safety. Similar to the "felt like a month" thing. Nothing concrete, just some vibes. One Swell Foop posted:So did anyone else notice the tardis-style litter bin/trashcan just after the doctor and Osgood parachuted to safety? I got very distracted wondering if it was somehow a plot point but then realized I was probably way overthinking it. I did the same 
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Nov 9, 2015 09:36
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Mr Beens posted:I can't remember the specifics but there have been a few times where the doctor has given some weird wistful looks at Clara when she has talked about being around forever and the future and he has acted oddly when it comes to her safety. Similar to the "felt like a month" thing. Nothing concrete, just some vibes. He is a time traveler. I'm beginning to wonder if she hasn't already died and he's so lonely he keeps going back and visiting her before it's happened, just to see her again.
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Nov 9, 2015 09:41
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The_Doctor posted:If you're new to this Secret Santa malarkey, we all throw our names into my hat, receive a random name, and send that person a lovely gift of Transformers goodies, toys, candy, maybe some booze, and all around a big ol' ball of holiday cheer! It's fun, trust me. No really. I would prefer Doctor Who stuff if I'm being honest  I seem to remember I was super broke last Christmas and couldn't take part, but this year I should be able to scrimp and scramble up some cash for a present for an Internet stranger. Please take part if you're at all so inclined, everyone! It really is a lot of fun, and all the gifts I've seen people get have been great (especially the ones I've sent, obviously). In news completely unrelated to what somebody might want to buy me for Christmas, I just finished reorganizing my Who DVD shelf under Colin's watchful eye. They fill the shelf up nicely, which means I'll probably have to move them somewhere else yet again when I next get something new in.  Honestly the novelty of TARDIS-shaped special release box sets is kind of wearing out for me.
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Nov 9, 2015 10:29
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Etoine's forced normalisations/big zygony puckery bits/swelling face felt like a proper bit of DW horror that I very occasionally glimpsed as a young'un. Surprised they went that far with it but the Fleet estate stuff was nice and spooky (I just realised: the river fleet was supposed to be play a big part in this but was never mentioned - I wondered why they didn't show the charts of it in the church in P1)2house2fly posted:I thought that was an okay two-parter in all, with some stupid bits, the standout for me being that Kate survived by just... shooting the zygon I genuinely laughed out loud at that. "How did you survive??!!?" *shoots zygon in face* Wheat Loaf posted:The episode was obviously about the Troubles and the Belfast Agreement. This makes the two visible DeLorean references I got in the episode entirely apposite then. CaptainYesterday posted:The Doctor's monologue in the Black Archive is, without a doubt, the best performance Capaldi has given in his tenure. Simply outstanding. There's something I can't put my finger on, but I often feel he has less gravitas than he did as Malcom. I honestly don't know what it is - the comparative pace of the lines, the editing, the way he delivers his lines or even something as banal as the sound mix, but he doesn't quite have the punch that he had in TTOI which I think would make those speeches better. E: and also, props to the makeup and costume dudes (but not the props dudes) for making Evil Clara with very little change the the wardrobe. Thought Jenna was great at a scenery-chewing baddie. echoplex fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Nov 9, 2015 |
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Nov 9, 2015 10:55
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echoplex posted:There's something I can't put my finger on, but I often feel he has less gravitas than he did as Malcom. I honestly don't know what it is - the comparative pace of the lines, the editing, the way he delivers his lines or even something as banal as the sound mix, but he doesn't quite have the punch that he had in TTOI which I think would make those speeches better. It's the complete lack of inventive swearing.
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Nov 9, 2015 11:01
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Cleretic posted:I just wanted to say, when thinking about it again, that Clara isn't necessarily brought into realizing that she's in a simulation/hallucination/dream of some kind because she's necessarily that smart, or because she gets a feeling, or anything like that. In fact, it's not really on her at all that she realizes what's going on. True. Though after Last Christmas she might be especially sensitive to noticing when she's stuck in lovely dream worlds.
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Nov 9, 2015 11:25
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Paladinus posted:It's the complete lack of inventive swearing. it's mostly the script. Capaldi really tried, but there's only so much one man can do.
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Nov 9, 2015 11:26
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Forktoss posted:I would prefer Doctor Who stuff if I'm being honest Bugger, good catch. 
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Nov 9, 2015 11:32
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