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Skwirl posted:
It's what got me out of comics for a long, long time.
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Nov 16, 2015 15:57
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It's what got me out of Spiderman comics. Though I did like Ben Reilly. His costume was kicking rear end 90's style.
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Nov 16, 2015 16:53
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The clone saga had its ups and downs. It'd be hard to argue it didn't have its good moments. But it's a pretty good example of how the industry in the 90s was its own worst enemy,
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Nov 16, 2015 17:24
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Sailor Viy posted:Pa Kent had a heart attack and went to the afterlife and beat up a bunch of angels with a shovel in order to save Clark's soul. That isn't quite what happened but it also wasn't very weird for that era of superman. As a friendly reminder: Jimmy Olsen and Perry White's son were gunned down and murdered. Their souls went to hell. Superman had to go to hell to rescue their souls. He managed to save Jimmy Olsen but Perry's son sacrificed himself to save them (and in doing so went to Heaven.)
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Nov 16, 2015 17:30
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ImpAtom posted:Jimmy Olsen and Perry White's son I read that phrase totally different from how you intended at first glance.
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Nov 16, 2015 17:32
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Ferrule posted:It's what got me out of comics for a long, long time. Yeah, the double punch of that and Onslaught did it for me. On the upside, Onslaught led to one of my favorite comics Thunderbolts and the Arcudi run definitely deserves mention here. So Thunderbolts is the story of Baron Zemo putting together a team of superheroes who are secretly villains trying to gain the trust of the governments. Some of the members decided to be heroes for real and oppose him. Hawkeye becomes their new leader. Over the course of 75 issues and other minis, every single original Thunderbolt redeems his or herself in some way. Even Zemo becomes a better person. The 75th issue ends with a hell of a cliffhanger, where Hawkeye leaves the team in the hands of Zemo, who appears to be on the up-and-up. Once Hawkeye's gone, Zemo boasts how the Thunderbolts are going to take over the world... in order to protect it. To be continued... But Marvel then decided that we had enough of this Zemo business and changed the series completely. The next six issues or so were done by a new creative team and had barely anything to do with Thunderbolts. It was about a C-list Spider-Man villain joining an underground fight club (referred to as "Fightbolts" by fans of the series). Don't get me wrong, it was still pretty good, it was just a weird detour that was in no way going to save the series' sales numbers. Who was going to be interested? The loyal readers were going to be turned off by the completely different story/direction and they weren't going to be getting any new readers because it's Thunderbolts #76. It doesn't exactly scream "jump-on point." Much like Marville, it also featured a bunch of Maxim-style cheesecake covers that were unrelated to the comic itself. Once the story ended, the series was canceled. A year or so later, they did an Avengers/Thunderbolts miniseries to pick up the Zemo plot and lead into a relaunch.
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Nov 16, 2015 17:57
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I can still remember when Thunderbolts #1 came out and everyone lost their loving minds at the end of issue reveal. It was marketed as a completely new team of heroes and they managed to keep it a secret until the book shipped. It was pretty great.
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Nov 16, 2015 18:46
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Travis343 posted:I can still remember when Thunderbolts #1 came out and everyone lost their loving minds at the end of issue reveal. It was marketed as a completely new team of heroes and they managed to keep it a secret until the book shipped. It was pretty great. It was the best. They even made their first appearance in a Hulk issue and there was just enough hinting that something wasn't quite right. Especially with Hulk realizing that something was familiar about Meteorite and she played dumb.
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Nov 16, 2015 18:54
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Lurdiak posted:I read that phrase totally different from how you intended at first glance. I couldn't remember his name! It was Jerry White for the record. Also fun fact: Jerry White was not Perry White's son. He was Lex Luthor's son after Luthor had an affair with Perry's wife. 
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Nov 16, 2015 19:13
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So let's talk about Fallen Sun: The Sentry. Now, I loved the Sentry. I thought he was rad. To review, in 2000, Paul Jenkins did a cool miniseries about a Superman archetype who existed in Marvel, was friends with everyone (especially the Hulk) and had a big, bad villain named the Void. Sentry found out that the Void was actually himself in kind of a Fight Club twist and realized the only way to get rid of him was to make everyone -- including himself -- forget who he is. The miniseries tells the story of Bob Reynolds remembering that he's the Sentry and Void, then reenacting the same amnesia plan again, only the ending suggests that yet again, it won't take. Bendis reintroduced him in the beginning of his New Avengers run. People rail on him for writing the Sentry's personality differently, but it made enough sense. He no longer had the safety net anymore because making everyone forget about him and the Void simply wasn't working. Sentry had to live with who he was and make sure not to Void-out, which was a psychological strain. Also, it was established that everyone else still had no idea about his past (except Hulk), so all this "Superman of Marvel" stuff was out the window. He had to create a new history. Jenkins did another Sentry mini and while not too memorable, it didn't step on any toes from what Bendis was doing. Other than how Sentry was less mentally wonky than how Bendis portrayed him. Bendis used Sentry as a bystander, affected by the events of the Marvel universe and his Avengers runs. The hero community fell apart, Osborn and his goons took over and in response, the Sentry lost control over time. Soon he was the Void almost completely and became the big boss at the end of Siege. Bendis screwed up the landing, but with Sentry/Void dead, the character path was complete. They let Jenkins write the funeral issue, which for some reason came out the same day as Siege #4. Way to spoil the ending of your big story when you have a Sentry funeral comic sitting next to it on the shelf. The issue comes off as Jenkins rebelling against Marvel's killing of his prized creation by writing a hilariously bad comic. Despite the Sentry being put down like a dog for being a mass murderer, everyone talks about how he was the best hero ever. Jenkins outright refuses to accept that his character developed into something completely different from his initial design. It's memorable for two scenes: 1) The Thing talks up this never-before-mentioned grudge he's had with Sentry because one time the Wrecker killed an entire bus of schoolchildren (because, you see, he's a bad guy) and Sentry stopped Thing from killing him or something like that. 2) At one point, Rogue runs away crying. It's explained that the Sentry popped her cherry once upon a time. So that happened.
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Nov 16, 2015 21:54
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pretty sure that "Fallen Sun" was the first comic that actually made me angry. not only did it hella mischaracterize everyone in it, but the art was rubbish and the entire thing reeked of a cash-in.
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Nov 16, 2015 22:52
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Jenkins seems terrible at characterizations sometime. Case in point- Cap's reaction to Sally Floyd giving him crap for not knowing what myspace was in Civil War, frontline.
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Nov 17, 2015 00:39
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So I always thought Spider-Man and Ms Marvel's brief dating period was weird, but mostly because in my mind Parker is like early 20s at most and Carol is firmly in her early 30s. Though it worked on page, but it was so abruptly ended. I heard that it was because editorial says that Spider-Man can never date someone who was stronger than him. It's such a weird couple though, like it felt like they spun a wheel and it landed on Ms Marvel where she was between She Hulk and Rogue. My favorite Wanda be Crazy and Cap stuck his dick in it moment was when the next morning he confronts Wanda about it and she's all "What are you talking about Steve?" and Caps all confused. http://i.imgur.com/NoFPSgC.jpg Though Cap telling Falcon about what happened and Falcon going "Dude, you don't sleep with young women you mentor, that's just bad. You hosed up" is pretty good. Okay, more seriously, we know that Marvel is known for doing a lot of comic books based on toys in the 80s. They did GI Joe, Transformers, Rom, Micronauts, Air Raiders, I think also Inhumanoids and Mask had comics too from Marvel, Voltron too. One of the stranger ones was TEAM AMERICA. No, not the World Police, but Team America, the Motor Cycle team that are also mutants who have the mutant power to form into one super skilled motor cycle rider, the Black Rider! http://i.imgur.com/Kgj9qwJ.jpg Also known as Thunderriders, Team America was based on a toy line that were repainted Evil Kenevil figures (because he was caught beating up his wife) and they asked Marvel to come up with some background on them and this is what we got. The thing was part of the team for a while too and drove a trike.
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Nov 17, 2015 01:34
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twistedmentat posted:One of the stranger ones was TEAM AMERICA. No, not the World Police, but Team America, the Motor Cycle team that are also mutants who have the mutant power to form into one super skilled motor cycle rider, the Black Rider!
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Nov 17, 2015 03:29
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root posted:Marvel's desperate attempts to cash in on that sweet sweeeeeeeet toy-money led to some very interesting titles like Sectaurs, Crystar, and Marvel's own "Hey guys wouldn't this make a great toy line oh poo poo nobody was interested" title... BRUTE FORCE! A group of sassy cyborgized animals who fought other sassy cyborgized animals to protect the environment because... uh... the 90s? Crystar ends up being a kinda great little comic that turns a lot of the stereotypes and assumptions of toyetic 80s kids fantasy franchises on their head, including it's own original status quo. Most likely because closer to the end, nobody was paying attention. I'm definitely going to do a write up of it for this thread now. Also Sectaurs reads like an 80s Basic D&D setting book, especially with that map at the end. I'm sure there's a write-up of it for Labyrinth Lord somewhere. Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Nov 17, 2015 |
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Nov 17, 2015 04:25
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Yea, Gi Joe was a lot more than a comic that existed to sell toys, but I think that was more the fact Hama had a lot of control over how it went and so he was able to make real stories that existed to be more than just selling the most recent toy releases.
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Nov 17, 2015 04:32
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root posted:Marvel's desperate attempts to cash in on that sweet sweeeeeeeet toy-money led to some very interesting titles like Sectaurs, Crystar, and Marvel's own "Hey guys wouldn't this make a great toy line oh poo poo nobody was interested" title... BRUTE FORCE! A group of sassy cyborgized animals who fought other sassy cyborgized animals to protect the environment because... uh... the 90s? Don't forget Visionaries: Knights of the Magical Light! They were action figures with little hologram stickers on their chests and/or shields. Man, I really miss that era of comic/cartoon/toy lines based on insane concept sci-fantasy-sword-and-blaster stuff. e: Oh man I forgot all about the ridiculous rhymes they had to shout to summon their powers. "Three suns aligned pour forth their light and fill the archer's bow with might!" 
Evil Mastermind fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Nov 17, 2015 |
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Nov 17, 2015 04:46
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twistedmentat posted:Yea, Gi Joe was a lot more than a comic that existed to sell toys, but I think that was more the fact Hama had a lot of control over how it went and so he was able to make real stories that existed to be more than just selling the most recent toy releases. He was good at it, too. Licensor mandate of "stick this guy in no matter what" could get in the way sometimes but he'd typically make it work. The most ridiculous example was when they made him include Torpedo, you know, the Navy frogman? in an issue where the Joes were defending Washington from (what else?) Cobra attack. He ended up going into the Treasury Building of all places, in full wetsuit-and-flippers regalia. I should cross-post this to the Badass Thread. 
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Nov 17, 2015 06:10
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root posted:Marvel's desperate attempts to cash in on that sweet sweeeeeeeet toy-money led to some very interesting titles like Sectaurs, Crystar, and Marvel's own "Hey guys wouldn't this make a great toy line oh poo poo nobody was interested" title... BRUTE FORCE! A group of sassy cyborgized animals who fought other sassy cyborgized animals to protect the environment because... uh... the 90s? oh my god that loving cyber-roo Kanga-rules and I bet he says that at some point in the comic.
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Nov 17, 2015 06:27
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root posted:Marvel's desperate attempts to cash in on that sweet sweeeeeeeet toy-money led to some very interesting titles like Sectaurs, Crystar, and Marvel's own "Hey guys wouldn't this make a great toy line oh poo poo nobody was interested" title... BRUTE FORCE! A group of sassy cyborgized animals who fought other sassy cyborgized animals to protect the environment because... uh... the 90s? Is that the same Crystar that showed up in Weirdworld?
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Nov 17, 2015 06:47
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Yes, sir. Recognized him from the toy ads that were all over Marvel books in the 80's.
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Nov 17, 2015 07:08
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Hah, that's amazing. I will have to grab Weirdworld when it comes out in trade. ManiacClown posted:He was good at it, too. Licensor mandate of "stick this guy in no matter what" could get in the way sometimes but he'd typically make it work. The most ridiculous example was when they made him include Torpedo, you know, the Navy frogman? in an issue where the Joes were defending Washington from (what else?) Cobra attack. He ended up going into the Treasury Building of all places, in full wetsuit-and-flippers regalia. I should cross-post this to the Badass Thread. Yep. Also when they killed some off, it didn't feel cheap, it felt organic. It was kind of interesting because there were toys that never showed up, or at least were shown very briefly. A great example is the Nightraven. This big cool Cobra aircraft that looked like an Sr-71, that was all over the tv show, but never showed up in the comic. Well it did, in one issue of one of the the Special Missions book where it got shot down and the pilot died. Back when Image was known to produce 90s as gently caress comics rather than stuff like Saga, Gen 13 was one of the popular titles after Spawn. It was kind of a Xtreme X-men thing focusing on young people who were all pretty stereotypical for the era. Adam Warren did some bootleg issues that I hope were trying to parody the cheesecake and over the top 90s extremism of the comics. http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/0/4/61834-5870-94829-1-gen-13-bootleg.jpg There was the Grunge the Movie storyline where Grunge (who looks exactly like you'd expect) and Roxy (who a million alternative girls in the 90s that read comics patterned their hair after) go see a movie where Grunge acts like a dick and dismisses it because she's all down with the Shaw Brothers and Tarantino and other true masters of action movies. http://megasad.com/old/comics/covers/large/gen13bootleg-08.jpg And then there was Magical Drama Queen Roxy http://i.imgur.com/uozqJRT.jpg Which obviously inspired by Sailor Moon and other magical girl shows that were instrumental in making anime more popular at the time. I mean, its got some decent jokes, mostly about douchy boyfriends and pokes at the genre, but I reread it and its super creepy, because it makes no effort the hide the inherent creepiness of the genre, even if the dialog clearly states she's 18. Oh and one of the issues of the Gen 13 bootleg was banned with its original cover in Canada because we have a big issue with bondage being portrayed as being nonconsensual. http://i.imgur.com/98G52W0.jpg This one. I don't know why anyone would have thought that was a good idea.
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Nov 17, 2015 07:40
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I really hate Adam Warren.
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Nov 17, 2015 07:44
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zoux posted:Is that the same Crystar that showed up in Weirdworld? Yes. Crystar was produced by Marvel to license to toy companies for a line of action figures (the designs were created by JRJR) not the other way around. When that toyline failed, the comic became much more interesting. Lurdiak posted:I really hate Adam Warren. You and every other person who has a conspiracy theory about how ~*THE PERNICIOUS INFLUENCE OF MANGA*~ destroyed comics.
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Nov 17, 2015 07:51
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Lightning Lord posted:You and every other person who has a conspiracy theory about how ~*MANGA*~ destroyed comics. Uh. I actually hate him because I hate everything he's ever made, not because of conspiracy theories.
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Nov 17, 2015 07:52
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zoux posted:Is that the same Crystar that showed up in Weirdworld?
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Nov 17, 2015 08:02
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Lightning Lord posted:You and every other person who has a conspiracy theory about how ~*THE PERNICIOUS INFLUENCE OF MANGA*~ destroyed comics. Or you can hate him because of his dumb cheesecake.
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Nov 17, 2015 08:23
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Lurdiak posted:I really hate Crystar. Lightning Lord posted:You and every other person who has a conspiracy theory about how ~*THE PERNICIOUS INFLUENCE OF MAGMA*~ destroyed comics.
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Nov 17, 2015 08:29
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I guess this thread is due to become a battleground between the forces who think Empowered is subversion and those who think it's straightforward? It was more a comment on how most people I see shittalking Warren do so because of lingering resentment towards late 90s/early 2000s manga influence in superhero comics anyway. The same types who are furious over Chris Bachalo and Joe Mad, or still whine about decompression. Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Nov 17, 2015 |
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Nov 17, 2015 09:38
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Let me know if this breaks tables; I'm phone posting.
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Nov 17, 2015 09:47
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No you are golden.
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Nov 17, 2015 09:59
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twistedmentat posted:So I always thought Spider-Man and Ms Marvel's brief dating period was weird, but mostly because in my mind Parker is like early 20s at most and Carol is firmly in her early 30s. Though it worked on page, but it was so abruptly ended. I heard that it was because editorial says that Spider-Man can never date someone who was stronger than him. It's such a weird couple though, like it felt like they spun a wheel and it landed on Ms Marvel where she was between She Hulk and Rogue. People in their 20s and 30s are allowed to date each other; it's really not a weird thing. Also, remember that they both worked for J. Jonah Jameson -- that's got to provide all kinds of opportunities to bond over war stories. 
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Nov 17, 2015 10:21
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Also Spider-man is like 30 at the youngest, no matter how much you try to apply Marvel time to him.
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Nov 17, 2015 10:49
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prefect posted:People in their 20s and 30s are allowed to date each other; it's really not a weird thing. Also, remember that they both worked for J. Jonah Jameson -- that's got to provide all kinds of opportunities to bond over war stories. Doesn't Ms. Marvel wear a domino mask? I'd think she would be much less of a mystery than Spider-Man by that virtue alone. I know that's just a thing we're used to by now, but it still kinda gets me when it comes up. Especially with Marvel, since they tend to be a lot better about faces being concealed on heroes with secret identities.
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Nov 17, 2015 14:09
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twistedmentat posted:Gen 13 But speaking of Gen-13, I remember the final issue of the original series pissed me off so much; not because of how it treated the characters (I never really read the series regularly, but I saw "FINAL ISSUE" on the shelf and gave it a look), but because of how insulting it was to the reader. Basically at the end of the series there was this whole thing where the team moved to the big city and got involved with the "teen metahuman" club scene, which I suppose would exist in a world as superhero-heavy as WildStorm. Anyway, the whole thing is about them having fun adventures with their new friends, in the last issue everyone starts hooking up with their dream boys/girls, and it's revealed that the entirety of the series since the house blew up is actually Fairchild's death-dream...because they're all getting killed in an explosion from X issues ago, so in her last moments Fairchild is imagining a fun life and future for everyone. Yeah, the last few storylines didn't actually happen! Sorry for wasting your time, readers! "It was all a dream in the last moments of a character's life" is one of those mind-meltingly insulting plot twists that just makes me want to break the writer's kneecaps.
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Nov 17, 2015 15:51
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Lurdiak posted:Also Spider-man is like 30 at the youngest, no matter how much you try to apply Marvel time to him. More like thirty at the oldest. There, Marvel time applied. That wasn't hard.
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Nov 17, 2015 16:15
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Cleretic posted:Doesn't Ms. Marvel wear a domino mask? I'd think she would be much less of a mystery than Spider-Man by that virtue alone. To be fair, at that point I don't think Carol even knew she was Ms Marvel. The early issues of her book didn't just have her ducking into a broom closet and putting on a scarf and bikini to go zap bank robbers, it was a whole unwilling transformation and split personality thing until Claremont took over.
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Nov 17, 2015 16:25
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I used to post on the DC comics message board about 10 years ago, and people got really upset at the idea of superheroes aging. This was mostly the older fans who would get mad at the concept of Superman being older than 28, or Hal Jordan having grey temples.
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Nov 17, 2015 16:26
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CopywrightMMXI posted:I used to post on the DC comics message board about 10 years ago, and people got really upset at the idea of superheroes aging. This was mostly the older fans who would get mad at the concept of Superman being older than 28, or Hal Jordan having grey temples. Well, given that the only real attempt at superheros aging was Batman/Superman Generations...
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Nov 17, 2015 16:28
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Evil Mastermind posted:Well, given that the only real attempt at superheros aging was Batman/Superman Generations... Earth 2 had them aging
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