boom boom boom posted:The concept of war ending and then peace happening is fascist that's not what I'm saying at all, but whatever, if your response to an actual thematic discussion is to present your rear end in the most direct display of surrender possible, then that's your problem boom boom boom posted:What the gently caress does that have to do with this show? He wants to be a farmer, maybe because it's literally the only example of a normal family life he has ever seen. That's not fascist. "Spoiled rich girl can't do regular chores right" isn't fascist either, you weirdo And in a vacuum, they aren't! But when you set up a bunch of disparate elements next to each other it starts painting an odd picture. Babysitter Super Sleuth fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 08:48
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mr. stefan posted:that's not what I'm saying at all, but whatever, if your response to an actual thematic discussion is to present your rear end in the most direct display of surrender possible, then that's your problem What you said is really super stupid.
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Nov 28, 2015 08:50
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Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron Blooded Orphans - The robot is a metaphor for fascism
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Nov 28, 2015 08:51
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mr. stefan posted:that's not what I'm saying at all, but whatever, if your response to an actual thematic discussion is to present your rear end in the most direct display of surrender possible, then that's your problem You're kind of also ignoring a lot of the context behind it; Mika's desire to turn to agriculture has nothing to do with any fascist ideal. It has no connection to any ideology outside of his own, and it's something he wants for himself after he's done because it's comforting and something he associates with peace and family. If it were perhaps associated with Orga's ideals, then you'd have a point, but it clearly doesn't. Those disparate elements don't really add up to that like you seem to think it does either.
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Nov 28, 2015 08:52
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mr. stefan posted:that's not what I'm saying at all, but whatever, if your response to an actual thematic discussion is to present your rear end in the most direct display of surrender possible, then that's your problem Not a bunch of disparate elements, two elements. Mika is a soldier who wants to be a farmer, and Kudelia didn't know how to chop vegetable. That is the basis for your claim that Iron-Blooded Orphans "leans hard on fascist iconography"
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Nov 28, 2015 08:53
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if you are making a post in a gundam thread and it contains the words 'italian fascists,' hit yourself in the head with a hammer until you stop wanting to make that post. thx.
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Nov 28, 2015 08:55
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Honestly, the eagerness to paint Tekkadan, a bunch of disenfranchised youths struggling for independence and survival, as dangerous radicals and potential fascists, and Mika, an obviously non-neurotypical and socially and cognitively different young man, as a disturbing, murderous psychopath with no will of his own despite all evidence to the contrary make me rather uncomfortable.
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Nov 28, 2015 08:58
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fascism is good. see attack on titan.
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Nov 28, 2015 09:00
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TFRazorsaw posted:Honestly, the eagerness to paint Tekkadan, a bunch of disenfranchised youths struggling for independence and survival, as dangerous radicals and potential fascists, and Mika, an obviously non-neurotypical and socially and cognitively different young man, as a disturbing, murderous psychopath with no will of his own despite all evidence to the contrary make me rather uncomfortable. Oh poo poo, the strength of youth, another fascist idea. Maybe mr. stefan is on to something...
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Nov 28, 2015 09:06
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Honestly, we're gonna label the Tekkadan crew as expressing the fascist ideal, and not the genius youths of previous shows who come from elite backgrounds and constantly profess than they have the answer to war and conflict while coming from privileged backgrounds? Iron Blooded Orphans actually depicts people most affected by war and strife, making do with what they can after being horribly abused and exploited and are doing so with an outdated piece of junk. Other series put the course of peace in the hands of (just to name a few) the initially apathetic son of a brilliant scientist, a genetically engineered superhuman who is revealed to be related to royalty, and three generations of a family who control and horde advanced technology they have almost exclusive access to. That's not exactly a balanced portrayal of war.
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Nov 28, 2015 09:12
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man I'm too fuckin tired right now to be writing all this poo poo, I'll probably put together an actual analyticial thing together later, but in all y'alls haste to Own the dude Trying Too Hard you missed how I said that the show isn't necessarily fascist in and of itself, but that may end up being so or end up being subversive of fascist politics. I mean, the OP is literally a rock and roll propaganda song calling for people to blindly follow the orders of others and just hope it turns out all right. Endorph posted:if you are making a post in a gundam thread and it contains the words 'italian fascists,' hit yourself in the head with a hammer until you stop wanting to make that post. thx. nah. e: like just to come back to this for a sec cause its bothering me, you are literally arguing that talking about real-world parallels in gundam is irredeemably stupid, even though the franchise got its start in a show where the villains were explicit nods to imperial Japan and nazi Germany. You are, in the most idealized sense, a complete loving retard. TFRazorsaw posted:Honestly, the eagerness to paint Tekkadan, a bunch of disenfranchised youths struggling for independence and survival, as dangerous radicals and potential fascists, and Mika, an obviously non-neurotypical and socially and cognitively different young man, as a disturbing, murderous psychopath with no will of his own despite all evidence to the contrary make me rather uncomfortable. Mikazuki is a disturbing murderous psychopath who actively cedes his personal will to others, tho what's important is where his character goes from here. TFRazorsaw posted:Honestly, we're gonna label the Tekkadan crew as expressing the fascist ideal I actually never said this, I specifically brought up Mikazuki's nature as someone who actively turns himself into an empty vessel to act on behalf of authority being, as he is now, an idealized fascist protagonist, a la johnny rico of Starship Troopers. Similarly, this all started because people were trying to figure out what the gently caress Atra even exists in the series for, and I half-jokingly pointed out how she hits pretty much every checkbox on the list for what Mussolini's Italy called for in the ideal woman (agricultural background, motherly, passive, domestic, etc.) and so far her only interactions outside of talking to Mikazuki or reinforcing the aforesaid character traits have been to explain to Kudelia how she is Wrong At Everything. quote:Other series put the course of peace in the hands of (just to name a few) the initially apathetic son of a brilliant scientist, a genetically engineered superhuman who is revealed to be related to royalty, and three generations of a family who control and horde advanced technology they have almost exclusive access to. It's almost like military science fiction being a breeding-ground for right wing nationalism and futurist war fetishism is a documented trend that Gundam as a franchise has repeatedly fallen prey to in the past, or something. Babysitter Super Sleuth fucked around with this message at 10:01 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 09:33
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Okay, to be fair, I will totally admit that Gundam and  don't have the best track record with not having problematic implications. However, I am also fairly certain that any fascist symbolism in a show about the trauma of child soldiers is not intentional. It'd be like if Grave of the Fireflies was secretly about the benefits of nuclear power. That doesn't mean that you can't see that in the show, Death of the Author and all that, but if it's there, it's unintentional, informed by specific quirks and blind spots in Japanese culture.
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Nov 28, 2015 09:39
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Mikazuki's kills have all been against people who have had no compunctions against killing him. Crank mansplaining his actions and trying to impotently find a loophole he could use to drag a woman off into confinement and clear his conscience for blindly following terrible orders doesn't change that. Mika's not a murderer. He's not a psychopath either; he retains full control of his faculties.
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Nov 28, 2015 09:39
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I don't really have an opinion of the facism thing other than "Huh that's interesting, I'll see how it goes" but, uh, as for this:TFRazorsaw posted:Mika's not a murderer. He does summarily execute two unarmed and bound prisoners who posed exactly zero imminent threat to him in like, the second episode? I mean maybe you can argue about "Was it really murder if they would do the same to him?" or something but it sure as hell wasn't self-defense.
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Nov 28, 2015 09:49
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Mm, that's true, but I also can't argue it wasn't something they had coming. Revolution is rarely clean and all.
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Nov 28, 2015 09:52
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Someone Wanting to kill you Really Bad is not in and of itself justification for putting a bullet in their brain, especially when they're bound and weaponless on the floor, so no, every court in the world would call him a murderer. Also, psychopathy has nothing to do with loss of faculties, but it does have to do with an inability to see value in human lives outside of a small social group, for which an argument can be clearly made given Mikazukis total willingness to kill people just because Orga told him to. The important thing to remember is that just because Mika is a horrible hosed up mess of a person does not mean that he is irredeemable or unsympathetic, merely that the show needs to progress his character and portrayal from this point.
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Nov 28, 2015 09:55
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It's more than not them wanting to kill him really really bad. They were abusive, save driving monsters who subjected children to horrible experimentation and body modification, and were highly implied to habitually beat or sexually abuse their subordinates. I'm not sure ANYONE would see value in those lives, and Mars is clearly not a place where they'd be brought to justice.
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Nov 28, 2015 10:02
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Murder being the best available option in a situation A) does not make it a good option B) does not make it Not Murder
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Nov 28, 2015 10:11
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Ha ha okay kids, see you in the morning. I don't need to wake up to a hundred more posts of this.
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Nov 28, 2015 10:20
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpWmlRNfLck
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Nov 28, 2015 19:57
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That is a pretty rad album cover.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:21
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I know the discussion got the thread locked, but it did bring to mind some of the interesting ways this show (critically) uses imagery classically associated with fascism both in and out of universe. Permission to effortpost about them? I mean, it's cool if not, because I get that it's a touchy subject, but the show seems to be doing some pretty clever thematic work here, and I thought it'd be fun to spew  about it.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:21
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I would like at least one week without someone self-hating a conversation again with "Well, it's Gundam/anime/Japan so of course."
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Nov 28, 2015 20:27
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harems, fascism, japan. these are things are all win
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Nov 28, 2015 20:57
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Atra is a fascist soldier.
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Nov 28, 2015 20:59
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I appreciate the things you do for us, Bad Seafood. 
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Nov 28, 2015 20:59
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Darth Walrus posted:I know the discussion got the thread locked, but it did bring to mind some of the interesting ways this show (critically) uses imagery classically associated with fascism both in and out of universe. Permission to effortpost about them? Nine times out of ten when I lock a thread it has less to do with what's being discussed and more to do with how you're discussing it. The Gundam franchise is steeped in military iconography, full of characters talking about war and peace and the way things should be. I'd be remiss not to allow the discussion of these elements, but I also believe it is possible to do so without sounding indignant, self-righteous, or accusatory. Discussions are good, analysis is great; hand-wringing is bad, slap fights are dumb.
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Nov 28, 2015 21:09
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I like it when the big robots go pew-pew-pew.
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Nov 28, 2015 22:30
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I think one of the things I liked about the reveal of the Turbines' family situation in this past Sunday's episode is that it adds a new context to Naze's reaction to learning about the Whiskers at the end of the previous episode. So far the usual reaction to Tekkadan's AV system from outsiders (mostly Gjallerhorn) has been a generic, "Oh God, that's horrible/barbaric!" But Naze actually has kids himself; the thought of Maruba forcing a procedure that could cripple or even kill on all the Tekkadan orphans must seem abhorrent to him on an entirely different level.
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Nov 28, 2015 22:30
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closeted republican posted:Atra is a fascist soldier.
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Nov 28, 2015 22:42
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Sam Faust posted:I like it when the big robots go pew-pew-pew. I like it when the big robots crush the bourgeoisie in an ideologically correct manner. Mika executing those guys was both cool, and good.
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Nov 28, 2015 23:06
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closeted republican posted:Atra is a fascist soldier.
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Nov 29, 2015 06:57
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      source (nsfw)
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Nov 29, 2015 07:19
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closeted republican posted:Atra is a fascist soldier.
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Nov 29, 2015 07:49
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lmao people are gonna get mad at the underage drinking as well 
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Nov 29, 2015 13:28
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These are some pretty cool Mafiyakuza. Also tiny Mika in the preview looked so grumpy.
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Nov 29, 2015 13:33
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Phobophilia posted:lmao people are gonna get mad at the underage drinking as well Bro they censored Jotaro's cigarette in the broadcast and that was at like 1am or something. This show has had straight up prisoner executions, harems, gay love interests, underage drinking and I dont know if this is true since Im just going by what was being posted in japanese forums but a guy lost his virginity and its airing at 5pm on sundays. Someone is bound to get angry Marie is going wild and I love it Cao Ni Ma fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Nov 29, 2015 |
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Nov 29, 2015 13:50
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Phobophilia posted:lmao people are gonna get mad at the underage drinking as well Also, kids literally visiting a brothel to blow off steam. Next week looks like the arrival of the Brewers, whoever they are (I'm betting Gjallarhorn agents/mercenaries). May also be that Atra episode we've been waiting for.
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Nov 29, 2015 14:10
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Two episodes in a row in a main line Gundam series without a single awkwardly wedged in mandated mobile suit fight.  I'm in love.I'm actually completely shocked at how totally chill and generous Teiwaz seem to be to our protagonists, considering they're supposed to be effectively an organized crime syndicate.
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Nov 29, 2015 14:15
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Another nice episode, with further exploration of the family dynamic. Caring for folks isn't just keeping them physically safe, but also letting them properly rest, relax, and enjoy themselves. I suppose I'm less put off by stuff like the drinking since I'm British and we kinda have a skewed standard on that sort of thing. Some interesting questions though on to what extent the Tekkadan boys may actually be growing as 'men', or simply chasing social masculine ideals without real regard for what those things mean, or if they're healthy for them. So some minor world building details: Apparently they can scarcely afford actual meat on Mars. Which... actually makes sense, given meat is relatively expensive, though many often don't realise that fact. Not to mention Mars being terraformed to being just about habitable wouldn't make it the best place for livestock. I think we can also basically confirm at this point that massive cultural blending is part of the show's world. Ie, the man with a Scottish name and tan skin runs his space mafia like a traditional Japanese household, and all the other mixed names within the show (I forgot that Mikazuki's name was actually Augus) being because in the future, there's simply been that much interweaving in society. Also, I love there is a 'Someday' and 'Always' option for Pubs in space.
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Nov 29, 2015 14:22
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