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Strom Cuzewon posted:So if it's common knowledge that he's a contender for God of War, why is not common knowledge that he's permanently morphed into a tiger and gone mad? It seems completely arbitrary what each character knows about all the magic stuff going on around them. As for the second one, that's a slow burning plot thread that goes all the way to the series' ending. If you're not engaged by a dying priest summoning a titanic hoof to stomp on the mortal plane, well, apparently it's not for you, but here you're given the option to speculate what it means; the characters have no idea what the hell is going on either, being on the run and without contact with civilization. It also echoes the relationship between worshipper and worshipped - another thing the series keeps coming back to. The book doesn't tell you it's bad, it tells you it's important - and it is, but the relevance of it will be explained over time. Really, if you don't have the patience for multi-book foreshadowing, the series probably isn't for you. Erikson ends each book with some kind of fireworks but the things you're complaining about are generally established over the series gradually. I still maintain that this is not a flaw.
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Nov 30, 2015 23:49
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anilEhilated posted:Because there's a difference between religion and history. They know there's a guy called Trake going for the post of God of War and they know he's a tiger (presumably because the cards work visually) his story is something that requires some amount of education. Picker says she thought a blessing by the god of war was a good idea for a soldier; obviously she didn't think it through and/or isn't aware of finer details of one of the setting's myriad of gods, demigods and wannabes. If nothing else, it shows her as being prone to impulsive decisions. And as you rapidly find out in Malazan, the more powerful you are, the more likely you are to be tits-out crazy.
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Dec 1, 2015 00:02
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coyo7e posted:Okay I'll try this, I like these thought exercises in how to rewrite a story "better". Ned coming to King's Landing had nothing to do with the twincest. Jon's murder was caused by his wife, who was manipulated by Littlefinger in to poisoning him, and then the Lannisters were used as scapegoats. Jon suspected the kids were not Robert's but the lie Littlefinger used on Cat's sister is that Jon planned to send their son to Stannis (or Tywin) similar to how Robert and Ned had been sent to him as a child. Cat's sister, being the batshit insane woman she is, believed Littlefinger's claims in no small part because of her unrequited love for him. Or the fact that the single act that everyone in the kingdom hates Jaimie for was probably the most(maybe only only) noble thing he's ever done in his life. He broke his oath because if he didn't it was very likely King's Landing would've burned in wildfire and thousands of people would've died. He's hated for an act that people would've celebrated him for if he wasn't a Kingsguard. Though people only knew what happened because of Ned, whose blind sense of honor fucks things up constantly.
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Dec 1, 2015 00:24
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Evil Fluffy posted:Ned coming to King's Landing had nothing to do with the twincest. Jon's murder was caused by his wife, who was manipulated by Littlefinger in to poisoning him, and then the Lannisters were used as scapegoats. Jon suspected the kids were not Robert's but the lie Littlefinger used on Cat's sister is that Jon planned to send their son to Stannis (or Tywin) similar to how Robert and Ned had been sent to him as a child. Cat's sister, being the batshit insane woman she is, believed Littlefinger's claims in no small part because of her unrequited love for him. And yeah Jaime would've still been the kingslayer, which effectively makes him the world's biggest rich rear end in a top hat with a sword. 
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Dec 1, 2015 01:12
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I can't actually tell what point anyone is trying to make. I think the incest in GoT kind of rules, and more books should include it, that's my argument.
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Dec 1, 2015 01:19
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Solitair posted:Why does this thread like The Lies of Locke Lamora so much?
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Dec 1, 2015 02:42
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bigperm posted:For me, what really sets it apart is the dialog. The cursing alone is on a level far beyond most speculative fiction. I just like capers. Good, non-cheesy, non-Ocean's Eleven-style BIG TEAM capers are hard to find!
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Dec 1, 2015 02:57
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Patrick Weekes has some good books.
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Dec 1, 2015 03:01
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angel opportunity posted:I can't actually tell what point anyone is trying to make. angel opportunity posted:I can't actually tell what point anyone is trying to make.
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Dec 1, 2015 03:47
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Everything could use more mercenary gladiators fighting over a shark pit,though.
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Dec 1, 2015 03:58
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I'd also argue that it doesn't necessarily make the Imass feel more alien and weird because, and this one of my major issues with Malazan, everything is so alien and weird. There's no context to the weirdness. Whenever a given event happens I have no way to tell with characters are going to shrug it off as perfectly normal, or start screaming for their mother. This is exactly how I felt reading the series, but you articulated it better than I could. Definitely stop now, I went through to book 9 and it never got better (to me). There was just no consistency or built up expectations to give context to anything. E: Not to say others wouldn't enjoy the books, of course, but if that's bothering you now, just cut your losses 
sourdough fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Dec 1, 2015 |
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Dec 1, 2015 04:09
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Combed Thunderclap posted:I just like capers. Good, non-cheesy, non-Ocean's Eleven-style BIG TEAM capers are hard to find! Yeah, I think this is it. Lies of Locke Lamora is an excellent dark-fantasy thieve's caper novel that's done well. People have been trying to write more of those since "Ill Met in Lankhmar" and they almost never suçceed. It has great pacing, great characters, great back story and setting, it just hits the ball out of the park in every way and does exactly what is trying to do. It may not be littrawchaw but it does what it wants to do excellently well.
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Dec 1, 2015 04:10
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Khizan posted:Everything could use more mercenary gladiators fighting over a shark pit,though.
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Dec 1, 2015 06:15
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coyo7e posted:Which is why TLoLL is much-praised by goons, which was the original question "why do goons think this poo poo is hotter than a drunk college student's ramen?" Basically, Lies knew where to find Angry Lady Sauce and that plenty should be added.
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Dec 1, 2015 08:18
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Very surprised to see someone say Jaime is a boring character. I'd say he's one of the best examples I've ever read of an author taking a character, making you hate him very early and very quickly, and then slowly making him likeable - not redeeming him, he's still a dick, but making him likeable. This is always why Stannis is a good character - you come to respect someone you don't actually like.
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Dec 1, 2015 11:35
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coyo7e posted:It's really an underutilized niche genre which hasn't been explored since Heinlein made it acceptable. Ah, okay, I agree with you then. I couldn't tell what you were actually arguing. I think GoT is proof that "problematic" poo poo can add to a story if used correctly rather than just for shock factor. And no, I don't think GoT is using that poo poo for shock factor.
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Dec 1, 2015 14:44
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freebooter posted:Very surprised to see someone say Jaime is a boring character. I'd say he's one of the best examples I've ever read of an author taking a character, making you hate him very early and very quickly, and then slowly making him likeable - not redeeming him, he's still a dick, but making him likeable. Agreed with respect to Jaime. Stannis I'm a little mixed on since what's respectable about him is his integrity, but that is becoming increasingly more compromised. Anyway, I was desperate for some World of Darkness style fiction so picked up a licensed Vampire: The Requiem novel, A Hunger like Fire by Greg Stolze, and it's... Good? I knew Stolze wasn't just a hack with nothing but licensed fiction, but I'm honestly surprised at how readable and decent it is. It's not a big picture metaplot style novel, but the characters are pretty solid and it's a good read if someone's in the mood for some vampire type stuff. On a par with some of the better vampire fiction like Those Who Hunt the Night or Anno Dracula (the latter is probably a bit better, but still).
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Dec 1, 2015 16:48
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Went back to The Merchant Princes and it's almost physically uncomfortable to read about all this force marriaged/babymaking stuff. Like, I don't even have the parts to empathize, but gently caress...  I'm on the fifth book now and it seems like even though that particular plot is moot now that the royal family is all dead, Miriam's going to have to keep/not-abort the baby anyway since it's the royal heir Man, gently caress everybody in these books.
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Dec 1, 2015 18:38
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WarLocke posted:Man, gently caress everybody in these books. Yeah I gave up on the Merchant Princes series ages ago, so much pointless soap opera. I'm hoping the new books where apparently post-cross-dimensional attack America goes balls out dystopia are better.
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Dec 1, 2015 18:53
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Has anyone read AJ Smith's "The Long War" series? I started it last night, but 50 pages in it still seems to be a bizarre power fantasy about two not-templars scaring a bunch of immigrants without any self awareness. Is that accurate?
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Dec 2, 2015 02:34
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coyo7e posted:Ender's Shadow. It's also my favorite not-ender's-game book. It's about Beat surviving in the streets of uhh, some European city with other street rat kids. It's completely absurd, and fun as heck. I'm really digging all the recommendations I've got so far, but just something curious I noticed, why are there so many of these types of stories that take place in London?
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Dec 2, 2015 11:12
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pandaK posted:I'm really digging all the recommendations I've got so far, but just something curious I noticed, why are there so many of these types of stories that take place in London? It's also The Big City That Speaks English outside of America.
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Dec 2, 2015 11:20
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That's a very interesting question. I think it's simply because it's a culturally significant city, the former capitol city of a global empire and above all else an old city in the Anglosphere. If you're a British or Commonwealth author it's a pretty obvious choice, and even for US authors American cities don't have the same kind of history that London has. Doing research will also be fairly easy for an English-speaking author even if you don't have the opportunity to travel to London, and the treshold to travelling to London is low (and you may well have already been there before) if you are from an English-speaking country. In some stories, the fact that London is so old directly plays into why London has some supernatural property. London works fine for an international audience too since it's a big tourist destination and because everyone knows London by some degree from English language popular culture. It's like New York or Paris in that sense.
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Dec 2, 2015 11:21
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Antti posted:That's a very interesting question. I think it's simply because it's a culturally significant city, the former capitol city of a global empire and above all else an old city in the Anglosphere. If you're a British or Commonwealth author it's a pretty obvious choice, and even for US authors American cities don't have the same kind of history that London has. Doing research will also be fairly easy for an English-speaking author even if you don't have the opportunity to travel to London, and the treshold to travelling to London is low (and you may well have already been there before) if you are from an English-speaking country. In some stories, the fact that London is so old directly plays into why London has some supernatural property. Are there any that take place in more fantasy style settings?
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Dec 2, 2015 11:25
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quote:
Does he tell me it's important? I'm not being facetious here - in a book where the god of death manifests in the prologue for his own amusement, a low level wizard sails a boat through a hole in reality, and a song writer casually talks about ascending to godhood, what signals that the stuff with Fenner is a BigDeal? Heck, Oponn and Shadowthorne seem to pop between realms pretty easily, so why am I gonna respond differently to this? I find it so hard to engage with the events when there's so little explanation for why things happen, or why it's important. It's :speculation: in the Mass Effect sense - your free to speculate to your hearts content because the result could be literally anything, and there's nothing to direct you. I know I'm hitting this point really loving hard. Because I so desperately want to like these books. With you and all the other goons who seem to have pretty good taste singing it's praises so much there's got to be something pretty special going on. And I like the ideas of the books, I like the scale, I like the concept of ancient forgotten gods coming up against new upstarts, and everything's a big mess because myth and religion are distorting everything. I get that it's complicated. But after three books I just don't feel like he's giving me the tools to start unpicking the complexity. It feels diliberately obtuse, rather than as a result of what's happening.
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Dec 2, 2015 11:31
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chrisoya posted:Dickens. Brits do seem to have a huge stiffy for it as The City. As a Russian, at this point I wouldn't mind reading an urban fantasy that wasn't set there. Surely there are other cities in the UK?
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Dec 2, 2015 12:15
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Malazan
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Dec 2, 2015 12:34
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Does he tell me it's important? I'm not being facetious here - in a book where the god of death manifests in the prologue for his own amusement, a low level wizard sails a boat through a hole in reality, and a song writer casually talks about ascending to godhood, what signals that the stuff with Fenner is a BigDeal? Heck, Oponn and Shadowthorne seem to pop between realms pretty easily, so why am I gonna respond differently to this? Tip: Don't read Gene Wolfe The book of the Long Sun (or Bakker for that matter) It is kinda interesting to read what you say, because this is pretty much why the Malazan series is pretty divisive. The complexity and that you pick up things as you read is apparently not for everyone. I started the series with DG and got hooked directly on all the mysteries, but then again I don't need to understand everything as soon as I read it, since I safely assume it will be explained sooner or later. And now I have read the entire series 3 times, and there was still things I had missed in earlier reads. You have read 3 books, GoTM, DG and MoI. Of those, GoTM is kinda of an introduction, but is a book that really shines once you have read the entire series (including FoD). DG is pretty standalone from the events in GoTM, and the series could easily be started from this book (like I did). MoI is a continuation and conclusion of the events from GoTM. So in a way, you have read 2 different story lines that are pretty separate. Each book is also pretty stand alone. The only advice I really can give is to have patience with the books (which I realise might be hard for people who don't read fast and have a good memory).
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Dec 2, 2015 12:38
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Megazver posted:Brits do seem to have a huge stiffy for it as The City. As a Russian, at this point I wouldn't mind reading an urban fantasy that wasn't set there. Surely there are other cities in the UK? There are, but London is more than 2000 years old and has been the first port of call for almost every culture that has pass through Britain. There are other cities as old, like York and Manchester, but they don't have the same continuity because they never absorbed people in the same way. That absorption also leads to a lot of writers ending up there, so they write about what they see. That said, there are urban fantasies not set in London. Clive Barker's Weaveworld is set in Liverpool, Brian Lumley's original Necroscope series is partially set in Edinburgh and northeast England, and in graphic novels Alan Moore's Skizz is ET relocated to Birmingham.
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Dec 2, 2015 12:38
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anilEhilated posted:I sadly can't remember what this was like on my first read through, but maybe try just carrying on and enjoying the occassional moment where something clicks together? One really starts appreciating all the foreshadowing only on a reread, with possibly just filing the things you don't understand for later reference; all the books have self-contained plots and while the elaborate overarching lore is one of the things that makes the series special, it's not all there is to it. Alright, I'll stick with it. I picked up a fair few major spoilers while skimming the Malazan thread to figure out what was going on, and while that's ruined some of the surprises I think it's balanced out by actually giving me some idea of the direction of the books.
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Dec 2, 2015 12:40
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Megazver posted:Brits do seem to have a huge stiffy for it as The City. As a Russian, at this point I wouldn't mind reading an urban fantasy that wasn't set there. Surely there are other cities in the UK? Nope, not really. London is three times the size of any other city in England, it's internationally important in several different ways, it's very diverse, and the next biggest cities are a) a lot younger (places like Manchester were nothing special until the Industrial Revolution) and b) not in the South. Plus, there are lots of other famous books set there. Non-London urban fantasy? Some of HELLBLAZER is set up North or, I think, in Ireland; bits of His Dark Materials happen in different Oxfords, Lanark is set in Glasgow, sort of, Voice of the Fire isn't really an urban fantasy but it's set in Northampton, and, er... Zuleika Dobson?  pandaK posted:Are there any that take place in more fantasy style settings? You seem to be asking for stories about "slum people" set in secondary worlds, and I suppose that kind of fantasy is generally too escapist for that.
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Dec 2, 2015 16:07
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House Louse posted:Nope, not really. London is three times the size of any other city in England, it's internationally important in several different ways, it's very diverse, and the next biggest cities are a) a lot younger (places like Manchester were nothing special until the Industrial Revolution) and b) not in the South. Plus, there are lots of other famous books set there. Back when the likes of Manchester were "nothing special", neither was London quite frankly. They're both actually contemporaries, they were established as Roman forts at roughly the same time. It's only relatively recently (in historical terms) that London has come to dominate politically and culturally, and that's a matter of policy rather than anything inherently special about the place... because frankly it's a loving shithole. A shithole that just happens to be full of self congratulatory toffs. 
tooterfish fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Dec 2, 2015 |
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Dec 2, 2015 16:25
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Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:Patrick Weekes has some good books. I felt like he kind of dropped the ball on The Paladin Job. A really fantastical bad-guy concept that the previous two books had both been leading up to just ended up very... mundane in execution. To give an example, the evil office meetings were very evil, yes, but way, way too humanizing for exactly who was participating. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Besides which, the ending was so over the top and had so many twists, it felt like it was trying too hard, and most of the characters are kinda one-note. A few of them get a bit of depth, fair, but the others just spend the whole book being glibly whedonesque so you can tell exactly which archetype they are. Maybe there's something to be said with the ones that do get development subverting the expectations that everyone will be a understood-at-a-glance quip engine, but i'd place my money on him just running low on ideas. The plots roll along entertainingly enough, and the dialogue will probably make you smile momentarily, but there's nothing to digest, nor anything that really sticks with you. Ceebees fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Dec 2, 2015 |
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Dec 2, 2015 17:11
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tooterfish posted:I won't argue with your other points, but this is bullshit. Agreed on all points. London was a Roman settlement chosen because it was the easiest point to cross the Thames; it didn't exist as a town before 47 CE. Contrast that with Edinburgh, which has had continuity of settlement since at least 8500 BCE.
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Dec 2, 2015 19:29
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Cardiac posted:Tip: Don't read Gene Wolfe The book of the Long Sun (or Bakker for that matter) Yeah, there's a massive step-up between Gardens and Deadhouse. The opening of Deadhouse with all the Morrowindy unknown desert spirits is exactly why I keep coming back. I was actually going to use Bakker as a comparison of what I wish Malazan was. Because once you get past the fantasy names (and make no mistake, Bakker's names are painfully terrible at times) all the characters and their motivations are pretty well explained (Xerious and Conphas you crazy Ikurei bastards  ) and it actually spends time sketching out the philosophies of the various groups, which actually gives some material that can be used for speculation - the arguments I've had about Kellhus' intentions are the kind that are usually accompanied by table thumping and pint-glass waving. Also Nil'giccas/Cleric/Incariol could totally beat up Anomander Rake.
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Dec 2, 2015 22:08
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I liked Book of the New Sun, but I'm tempted to like...map out an outline for its structure next time I read it. I sometimes wonder if Gene Wolfe has no real structure to his stories, or if I'm simply too dumb to see it. I finished the whole trilogy as well as The Knight, but when I tried to read Latro In Mist I just kind of fell asleep every time I tried to read it, mostly because I had no idea where the story was going.
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Dec 2, 2015 22:26
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Yeah, there's a massive step-up between Gardens and Deadhouse. The opening of Deadhouse with all the Morrowindy unknown desert spirits is exactly why I keep coming back. Even as someone generally disappointed by Malazan, I liked 3-4 of them quite a bit. Deadhouse Gates, Midnight Tides, and I think maybe one more that I can't remember were all more focused on specific events or more-contained subplots, and were all the stronger and more cohesive because of that.
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Dec 2, 2015 23:29
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Cardiac posted:Tip: Don't read Gene Wolfe The book of the Long Sun (or Bakker for that matter) I love Gene Wolfe but could not get into Malazan. Whereas Wolfe has beautiful prose and imagery and some very strange settings to carry my interest when events are opaque Malazan just reads like schlock fantasy. Or at least Gardens of the Moon does. There's nothing to maintain my interest until things come together.
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Dec 3, 2015 02:37
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Has anyone read The House of Shattered Wings? The premise sounds like it would be either really good or really bad without much middle ground.
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Dec 3, 2015 03:09
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Ornamented Death posted:Has anyone read The House of Shattered Wings? The premise sounds like it would be either really good or really bad without much middle ground. I thought it was decent. It's nothing mind-blowingly new - the premise makes the world sound a little more interesting than it wound up being - but it was reasonably well written and enjoyable to read.
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