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Wheat Loaf posted:Moffat's quite good at that sort of thing. I'll grant that, even when trying to approach stuff critically, I do still really enjoy the Moffat Nerd-Pandering. I think part of it's that he doesn't demand you follow it, since anything that's actually important will be explained. Otherwise it's just there, as a little bonus to people who remember. Like with this episode, for example. You don't need to know the importance of the barn, identify all of the cloister's prisoners, or recognize the original TARDIS set (complete with slightly crap doors). But it's just a bit more fun if you do.
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Dec 6, 2015 15:01
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Most of the internet gushes over every episode. Remember that episode was very much in the MCU vein of "Hey, I remember that, this is great!". Lots of references to things just to have references to things (the barn, the dalek, the angels, Rassilon, etc) and most nerds seem to loving love that kind of poo poo. While the Daleks, Angels, and Cybermen showing up in the crypt were a bit extraneous, the barn and Rassilon were not. Moffat shown the barn 3 times--it was where the Doctor went to set off The Moment, and then it was revealed that he was some sort of orphan and the barn was where he lived with his foster family (the woman who made him soup, who presumably raised a lot of kids). Now he builds on that further by letting us meet that woman, and see her family/friends/neighbors--so we see the Doctor grew up with a bunch of Shobogans/outsiders in poor circumstances. That, along with Ashildr's comment that he was known to have been born into a noble Gallifreyan family implies that he was born "rich" and either lost his family or left them at a young age to live with the poor commons, then we know at some point he went back to the Capitol to go to Time Lord school and get in trouble, steal the President's daughter, etc. Moffat has built a lot of backstory here, and not all at once. Rassilon still being President is something I still maintain was a misstep, because you either have Dalton or someone on the level of badassery as him or Don Warrington or you don't bother. This guy was, as someone put it very aptly ITT, on the level of "Old Man Yells At Clouds" and it fell flat. He should have been some new President. But it wasn't exactly a shock to see Moffat kept Rassilon in place.
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Dec 6, 2015 15:02
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I think this could've been a great episode if they'd dropped Heaven Sent and stretched Hell Bent out into two parts instead. Who would suggest dropping Heaven Sent  anyway this episode's problem is that it was too bloated, the rushed bits feel rushed because they included 20 minutes of the Doctor staring down Rassilon which serves no purpose other than to maybe set up the Doctor being the hybrid who will "conquer Gallifrey" and to make the audience think his goal is revenge on the Time Lords rather than getting Clara back.
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Dec 6, 2015 15:03
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I didn't even realise the President was meant to be Rassilon, until they said his name. The actor playing him is a pretty good actor, as I've said before, but there needed to be a scene of him loving doing something other than yelling a soldiers for not shooting things, and being cowed by a few gunships. He's pretty much God-Emperor of the Time Lords, but all he does is have a strop on, and leaves. Him confronting the Doctor should have been the A plot - it's barely a C plot. Alternatively, if you want to show that he's a weak and feeble old man, it should have been built up to the reveal that he is a withered old guy. Maybe he's at the heart of the martrix or whatever, and the Doctor has to confront him to pull Clara from the time stream. Something.
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Dec 6, 2015 15:19
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jivjov posted:I mean, I get where the guy's coming from...but he seems to be forgetting an overwhelming male bias in media as it is. Just in the media? As with all things, it's a question of power relationships. Black women aren't exactly dominating the world right now.
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Dec 6, 2015 15:20
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I like Rassilon being characterised as "old man yells at clouds" because through his leadership, thats what both he and the Timelords have reduced themselves to because of their arrogance and incompetence. They're stuck at the far end of the universe and they're still engaging in pointlessly convoluted and plans that have very little relevance anymore because they're trapped where they are because everyone hates them and doesn't want them around.
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Dec 6, 2015 15:33
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Jerusalem posted:I liked that, since it was the Doctor realizing that he was making the decision for her and assuming that HE could handle remembering but she couldn't. After she tells him she attempted to sabotage the device, he knows it is now a crapshoot whether it works on him, or her, or both, or neither and he accepts the gamble. In doing so, he acknowledges she is an equal and not somebody he needs to make decisions for or protect/treat with kid gloves. After all, he could have just soniced it back to working as originally intended. I like the idea because it shows the Doctor basically testing Clara. If she wasn't able to reverse the memory wipe device then she needs his help, and the Doctor has to be able to protect her. If Clara is able to take a random piece of Time Lord equipment and quickly alter how it works? That shows she has the skills to carry on without him
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Dec 6, 2015 15:57
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2house2fly posted:Who would suggest dropping Heaven Sent The Doctor humiliating and ousting the establishment is what puts him in a position to save Clara, by abusing the authority he claims from them. It pays off his ongoing talk of revenge since Clara's death, and it will obviously motivate Rassilon to come after him later.
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Dec 6, 2015 16:14
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I really liked that episode. I thought it was actually a very refreshing change for a season finale in that the stakes were one person's life (Clara) instead of the entire universe. It reminded me a lot of Neverland, in that the Doctor wasn't willing to give up on trying to save his companion and whatever the Time Lords thought be damned. I do have a hard time believing that Rassilon just up and left, considering how fire and brimstone he was portrayed in The End of Time, but I recognize that they had to deal with that plot thread before resolving the plot of the hybrid and Clara's death. But I guess Rassilon fizzling out in a fit of ego falls in line with his character, considering what happens with him in Neverland and The Next Life.
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Dec 6, 2015 16:31
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It was a bit silly that the General regenerated with makeup already on, but I guess there's a precedent to regenerative accessories since Pertwee got a tattoo and Troughton grew an entirely new set of trousers. Don't really know what I thought of the episode as a whole. Lots of great little moments and Capaldi's eyes alone acted most of the guest cast off the stage, but a lot of it felt really over-indulgent and a bit sloppy. Looks like confused and overwrought Gallifrey epics are back, classic who fans rejoice
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Dec 6, 2015 16:40
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The Adventures of Punk Rock Space Dad is a show I'm kind of enjoying a lot. Things are looking up, I think.
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Dec 6, 2015 16:51
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Just in the media? As with all things, it's a question of power relationships. Black women aren't exactly dominating the world right now. Oh definitely. I was just keeping my statement confined to "media" since Doctor Who is a tv show. I really do wish that The General had just regenerated and that had been the end of it. Keep the "are you alright sir...I mean ma'am" just to make sure everyone gets that this is the same character, but the snarky little comment from the General just undermines the point of the scene.
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Dec 6, 2015 17:29
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PriorMarcus posted:Very pretty though. Spatula City posted:and Rachel Talalay remains one of the show's very best directors. Jerusalem posted:Hell Bent gifs - regardless of whether people liked or disliked the episode, I think most can agree it was absolutely gorgeous looking. Glad we're on the same page here. I love what the show looks like now. I was actually most impressed by the Hell Bent promo shot.  And More posted:
I would have no problem with Capaldi regenerating into Joanna Lumley.
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Dec 6, 2015 17:43
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So the Time Lord's teleported The Doctor into a disc near the end of time, to get information from him, and left it laying in the desert outside of the city? And then were surpised when he stepped out? Wouldn't they've been monitoring it? (Edit - And why does my new USB keyboard have wierd typing lag making it very hard to use?) (Edit Edit - nevermind, I had swtiched my audio to redirect to HDMI, and had since unplugged it. Task manager showed the audio driver running too much is how I tracked it down. Once I switched back to PC speakers - no more typing lag. Now if I can only figure out my HDMI output video jitters, makes watching ESPN3 basketball a bit janky.) PowerBuilder3 fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Dec 6, 2015 |
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Dec 6, 2015 17:52
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Hey echoplex, you wouldn't happen to a have a pic of that stocking-faced Cyberman head you mentioned, or know if there's one floating around the web somewhere? I'd love to see it, if it's available anywhere. And thanks for posting neat behind the scenes stuff in the thread! This is a pretty cool picture, yes. It's my desktop wallpaper at the moment, though it's not the first time Capaldi has been in good wallpaper material: 
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Dec 6, 2015 18:06
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Forktoss posted:Looks like confused and overwrought Gallifrey epics are back, classic who fans rejoice  Why god , why
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Dec 6, 2015 18:23
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The doctor just has to be the greatest bullshit artist in all of time and space. He basically cowed the entire time lord society through pretending to know something that he clearly did not. Although this casts heaven set in a whole new light for me. He did not spend 4.5 billion years resisting torture to keep a precious piece of information that could save the universe hidden. He did it so he would have a trump card over the time lords when he got back. I though he was being a hell of a determinator but... this is just a whole other level. I agree that the opening went on for too long I quite liked his attitude towards the timelords. "No gently caress you. You come to me" "and it better be the president getting his rear end out of a chair and coming himself" but again. This was him completely relying on bullshit to get them to come. As the soldier said "the first thing you notice about the Doctor of war is that he is unarmed" "for many it's the last thing they notice" So yeah. I guess That's what makes him dangerous. People are never sure if he actually has something capable of annihilating them or if it's all talk (we already saw Matt smith being called out on his bullshit in the pandorica. It also makes me see that speech a bit differently then I did at the time. It's not him boasting "I'm the greatest ever you can't beat me" it's him trying a desperate gambit and leveraging his reputation) Anyway to finish this episode went in a completely different direction than I anticipated and that's good. First time he walked into the barn I was thinking "is the moment still there and will he do something nuts with it" but no. He just wanted to chill with the downtrodden folk and saying "gently caress you timecards you are a bunch of wankers and I am not giving you the time of day" While I wanted a more galliffey centric plot the important thing is that it's out there and I am sure it be relevant in the future. All & all happy with the finale Christmas looks fun this year! I generally don't like the specials too much e. phrasing just_a_guy fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Dec 6, 2015 |
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Dec 6, 2015 18:48
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Senor Tron posted:If Clara is able to take a random piece of Time Lord equipment and quickly alter how it works? That shows she has the skills to carry on without him Haha true but all she did was put on sonic glasses with a psychic interface and think 'reverse polarity!' really hard. I think it's more about her quick thinking skills and being smart enough to ignore the Doctor when he says the conversation he's about to have is for him alone.
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Dec 6, 2015 19:01
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Oh, and Capaldi looks infinitely better this season now he's got a decent head of hair going on.
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Dec 6, 2015 19:06
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Cleretic posted:Okay, I'll admit, this was a bad episode. But it's a great kind of bad episode. There's like six different plot ideas in the one story and they're all absolutely batshit. And they don't so much step on each other as just last for long enough to get to the NEXT batshit idea, without reaching their own potential. It's a really fun lovely finale, and I love it. What struck me as odd about it is how much it screwed with my expectations. It didn't build toward an event which tied up an overreaching story, and any foreshadowing was there to serve as a MacGuffin in order to motivate everyone to do awful things to one another. And what a motive. It is something they touched on previously with the entire "Last Centurion" mythos, where the combination of dedication and guilt will set someone with a seemingly infinite lifespan to the single minded goal of recovering someone they care about. But in this case, the goal was hidden. In the previous episode, it seemed as though he was just being stubborn for the sake of sticking it to the person or persons behind the trap. Now we know it is because he truly didn't know the answer. He suspected, but could not be certain. To pass the truth test, he has to answer "I don't know." and the instant he gives that answer, he is no longer needed. He loses access to the people who so desperately want the answer as well as any power or control he has over them. The only point at which he actually does answer is once he is free of the trap. And he does so in a way that is half-honest. He tells them what he suspects, but cannot confirm, and does so in a way where the alternative interpretation makes him out to be an even bigger threat. I need to re-watch the ending though. I was paying too much attention to the conversation and not enough to the surroundings during the whole sit down with Me, and I'm curious to see how many elements of the prophecy are met in ambiguous ways by the actions within the episode itself.
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Dec 6, 2015 19:11
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Cleretic posted:I'll grant that, even when trying to approach stuff critically, I do still really enjoy the Moffat Nerd-Pandering. I think part of it's that he doesn't demand you follow it, since anything that's actually important will be explained. Otherwise it's just there, as a little bonus to people who remember. He's good at nerd-pandering, but I meant it more along the lines that he has a talent for pitching the series to Tumblr, if you like, or TV Tropes. He's probably not consciously aiming at those sites or sites like them but he's good at presenting moments that nerds will gush over for being "epic" or "giving them feels" or whatever. RTD could have had the same status (cf. the stereotype about fangirls who like the series because of David Tennant's cheekbones) but he left before any of that style of social media reaction - reblogging, retweeting, creating gifs etc. - could really take off in a big way. Same deal with Sherlock. Don't mean to make a normative judgment about that tendency - if it's getting people into the series, surely that must be a good thing - more of a neutral observation. I think I said a while back that when RTD was in charge, it felt like a CBBC show with high highs and low lows leavened by a fairly consistent standard of quality throughout its run (cf. Robert Holmes's old dictum about Doctor Who being pitched to "intelligent 14-year olds"), whereas Moffat's series feels like it would be a mid-ranking CW show with flashes of brilliance, maybe going more for the sort of audience Buffy used to get.
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Dec 6, 2015 19:11
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I thought that last episode was awesome and I loved that the Doctor was so traumatized by what happened to Clara and then to himself that he basically didn't give a flying gently caress about Gallifrey. This entire season has been so personal and small-scale that the finale being about anything BUT the Doctor and Clara would have felt weird. There's plenty of time to care about Gallifrey down the road. I really don't get the bitching. And LOL at people taking umbrage at the general regenerating as something other than a white dude. Black Doctor incoming, y'all.
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Dec 6, 2015 19:23
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MisterBibs posted:A bit of a plot hole or ambiguity: Do you think the Doctor figured it out / decided not to pursue it when he noticed the picture of Clara on his TARDIS? Put two and two together? He'll figure it out. His TARDIS didn't get memory wiped, so it still has all the recordings of her. The memories are just at a distance, so he can let go.
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Dec 6, 2015 19:26
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Angela Christine posted:He'll figure it out. His TARDIS didn't get memory wiped, so it still has all the recordings of her. The memories are just at a distance, so he can let go. Pretty sure he figured it out when the diner disappeared and he saw the face of diner waitress on his TARDIS.
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Dec 6, 2015 19:32
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The whole thing is he knows there was a woman called Clara and he recognizes some of the stories but the actual *experience* is gone. What he's got left is sort of a Wikipedia version of events, he is aware that they happened but he doesn't remember being there.
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Dec 6, 2015 19:39
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I enjoyed that a fair bit while I was watching, but thinking about it for even a second after its clear it really was a lot of nonsense. It looked great, and I loved seeing all kinds of time lord poo poo. Give me even more stupid hats. And it's been a while since we've seen some nice future technology on the show- most of the time the far future just looks like a slightly souped up present day. So it was cool to see some appropriately advanced technology here. I especially loved the effect on the time scoop. The less said about the hybrid stuff the better. And Clara getting to be the Doctor was stupid. Clara's exit was already overblown after several fake outs and the raven poo poo, this episode just makes it absurd. And the Doctor murdering the general was incredibly out of character in a way that didn't feel earned, and was just glossed over in a very unsatisfying way. Mr "it feels like dying" "I don't want to go!" says regeneration is just man-flu?!
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Dec 6, 2015 19:41
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I can see some of the plot criticisms. Some of them that aren't, like, really digging way too hard to find reasons to be mad at the episode. But as a character arc it was great and this season has finally made me care about Clara and feel sad the Doctor's loss of her. And note I don't like this episode for the accused reasons of fanboyism. I didn't care about any of the past setpieces or the screwdriver, I liked the sentimentality. gently caress, hate the episode all you want, but don't make up reasons why I liked it so that you can feel better about yourself. And really I think it was one of the best of the season finales period. At least I felt something watching the doctor struggle to let go of clara and let her make her own decision and then to remember clara. Really, those were the stakes. Very small, personal stakes. The threat of the hybrid and the universe breaking were both smokescreens and there was no Mastermind Villain Planning to end the Universe this time. Rassilion maybe, but he didn't matter that much. The story had some scope but not nearly as much as any given RTD finale. There wasn't anything outright horrible like Cyberbrig, either. Really the only season finale I remember enjoying was season fives. Season six and seven (not counting day of the doctor) were huge messes without focus, season eight was... season eight, and then we have the RTD finales which were each a mounting absurdity. I think just once, just this once, having the episode be about the Doctor personally was great. And even if you didn't like THIS episode, we still have the last one, which had the most universal praise I have ever seen an episode get.
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Dec 6, 2015 20:03
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Moffat on the series finale (which I loved) http://www.tvinsider.com/article/58081/doctor-who-season-9-finale-steven-moffat/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=TVGM Ashildr suggests that the Doctor could be half-human, which fans have always disagreed about. What prompted you to interpret “the Hybrid” as being a partnership instead of the Doctor? One of the things I always think is, you have to keep some ambiguity. The show is called Doctor Who because we don’t know everything about him. We know that he once said, as a canonical fact, that he was half human. Even more intriguingly, throughout the '60s era of the show, he seemed to talk as if he were human, but then sometimes as if he wasn’t. So there is a lot of ambiguity. We don’t quite know where he comes from, and I would never want to clear it up completely because Who is in the title for a reason. He’s a mysterious man. We don’t know everything about in his past, why the way he is, what happened to his family, or why he’s so different from all the other Time Lords. We’d remove a lot of the mystery if we provided those answers. We also got to say goodbye to Clara properly. What was the decision behind how she would leave the show, in a TARDIS with the Doctor forgetting her? I’d always thought that if you’re going to have Clara be the companion who grows to be a bit like him, then the only way to end it is to have her go off and do that, actually being as reckless and mad and flying off in her own TARDIS with her own companion. [It's] sort of the logical ending for her. I’ve always had the idea that she’s the one who couldn’t go home again. And we’ve known that about Clara for a while. She’s the one who is as addicted to time and space and running and explosions as the Doctor is. I never thought she’d end with going back to the school and being an ordinary person. She can’t do that. She’s not like that. She’d never fit there again. I’ve always had it in my mind that she’d stay out among the stars. There’s also a new sonic screwdriver. Why give up the sunglasses? I only wanted them for the two-part season opening. The Doctor had to smuggle a sonic screwdriver into Davros’ lair without Davros knowing what he’d done. I just thought Peter looked good in them and it was the kind of the thing the Doctor would do: “I’ll annoy Clara. I’ll wear my glasses for a while.” We just kept on going until we found a sonic screwdriver design that we liked. We’re not necessarily losing the sonic sunglasses, [but the change] was just for fun. Never take it too seriously! Childhood is a big theme in your writing. Why have the Doctor return to, what seems to have been, his childhood bedroom? It was hardly a sentimental reunion because he’s going there in a towering rage. But it was good to do. I was pleased we’d set up that barn so he’d have somewhere to go that wasn’t the citadel, that represented the ordinary people as opposed to the High Council. It was lovely to go back there. It’s a beautiful set, that barn. And we keep bringing it back. It’s become quite important to the show because that’s where “The Day of the Doctor” ended and it’s, as far as we know, [the Doctor’s] childhood bed. RELATED: 11 Questions Doctor Who Still Needs to Answer Now that Gallifrey is unfrozen and they have more TARDIS’, could we see the Doctor run into more Time Lords or Ladies in the future? Yes. It’s entirely possible. I’m not sure that we’re in a hurry to do it. He’ll be avoiding them. After all he’s done it again—flown off and stolen something! I know a lot of people have asked you this, but could this be your last season? I take it one year at a time. No decision as yet.
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Dec 6, 2015 20:20
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marktheando posted:And the Doctor murdering the general was incredibly out of character in a way that didn't feel earned, and was just glossed over in a very unsatisfying way. Mr "it feels like dying" "I don't want to go!" says regeneration is just man-flu?! Straight up shooting him was not very doctory but I took it as regenerating amongst timelords with timelord magictechnology around is probably not as big a deal as when you're the last of your kind, the titular character and the actor is talking about/doing his final scene on the show. No it's not very consistent but neither is a lot of the rest of the show tbh 
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Dec 6, 2015 20:31
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just_a_guy posted:The doctor just has to be the greatest bullshit artist in all of time and space. I think he didn't know it was the time lords until he left the dial, his whole motive in breaking out was that the plot to entrap him also cost Clara her life and he wanted revenge for it. It turned out to be the time lords and he realised he might be able to go one better.
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Dec 6, 2015 20:35
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One thing confuses me. What was the deal with 'it's always 4 knocks' when Ishida shows up? Is that a callback to Listen where they're also at the end of everything and there's something outside? I went back and checked and I'm pretty sure I'm hearing 3 knocks in that episode.
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Dec 6, 2015 20:39
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Maxwell Lord posted:What he's got left is sort of a Wikipedia version of events, he is aware that they happened but he doesn't remember being there. You know, that's an interesting aspect. What we're seeing is after all the story the Doctor is telling Diner-Clara. This might explain why events in the episode feel so disjointed.
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Dec 6, 2015 20:40
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kant posted:One thing confuses me. What was the deal with 'it's always 4 knocks' when Ishida shows up? No it's a callback to the end of Ten's run. "He will knock four times."
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Dec 6, 2015 20:41
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well, seasons over. it ended with everyone letting out a long, loud and confused fart, while moffat jumped around slapping his dick on the pages of the script. now everyone go home.
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Dec 6, 2015 20:44
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echoplex posted:In case anyone is vaguely interested, I've put up a selection of work from S9 here. Just wanted to let you know I appreciate the BLK-MESA button (and everything else, of course). Also Greg Davies is going to own. It's like Rik Mayall is back...
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Dec 6, 2015 20:49
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Maxwell Lord posted:The whole thing is he knows there was a woman called Clara and he recognizes some of the stories but the actual *experience* is gone. What he's got left is sort of a Wikipedia version of events, he is aware that they happened but he doesn't remember being there. Much like the audience then
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Dec 6, 2015 20:49
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Attitude Indicator posted:well, seasons over. it ended with everyone letting out a long, loud and confused fart, while moffat jumped around slapping his dick on the pages of the script. Two MacGuffins walked into a deux ex machina...you finish the joke.
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Dec 6, 2015 21:37
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Diabolik900 posted:No it's a callback to the end of Ten's run.
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Dec 6, 2015 21:42
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2house2fly posted:I think he didn't know it was the time lords until he left the dial, his whole motive in breaking out was that the plot to entrap him also cost Clara her life and he wanted revenge for it. It turned out to be the time lords and he realised he might be able to go one better. I think that when he saw the diamond wall with "home" written behind and started pulling the pieces together (time looped rooms) he figured it out.
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Dec 6, 2015 21:47
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Diabolik900 posted:No it's a callback to the end of Ten's run. I find that even more confusing.
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Dec 6, 2015 21:49
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