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Otisburg posted:lol i clicked on the cined thread about TFA and the last several pages are mostly discussion of SMG's theories about the deeper meaning of minor character Zam Wessel in AotC. :/
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Jan 11, 2016 10:35
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In that case, you are losing track of the discussion. Let's go back to the beginning: "When, at the end of Part III of the saga, Darth Vader asks Luke, his son, to take off his mask, so that he will see his father’s human face, this displaying of one’s face equals the ethical regression to the dimension of what Nietzsche called the “human, all too human.” -Zizek This, the quote that upset people, is about the inhuman dimension of humanity that is the ultimate support of ethics: "In philosophical terms, this 'inhuman' dimension can be defined as that of a subject subtracted from all form of human 'individuality' or 'personality' (which is why, in today's popular culture, one of the exemplary figures of pure subject is a non-human - alien, cyborg - who displays more fidelity to the task, dignity and freedom than its human counterparts, from the Schwarzenegger-figure in Terminator to the Rutger-Hauer-android in Blade Runner)." -Zizek A subject is one who stays faithful to an existential choice, without any promise of material or spiritual reward. Vader the cyborg - as opposed to Anakin the human - has absolutely nothing to gain from his commitment to Evil. And also, as I had explained, Luke has absolutely nothing to gain from his commitment to pacifism. If Luke does it in order to be rewarded with his human father back - if it's all a big show in order to garner sympathy - then what he did was not ethical. So what went wrong with Anakin? Well, precisely what people got wrong with Luke: Anakin wanted to get his mother back, and Padme fit those coordinates: "All too often, when we love somebody, we don't accept him or her as what the person effectively is. We accept him or her insofar as this person fits the co-ordinates of our fantasy. We misidentify, wrongly identify him or her, which is why, when we discover that we were wrong, love can quickly turn into violence. There is nothing more dangerous, more lethal for the loved person than to be loved, as it were, for not what he or she is, but for fitting the ideal." -Zizek This is, of course, precisely Padme's fate. Anakin's actions cannot be dismissed as mere selishness, like 'he wasn't really in love'. Their entire relationship was a perfect overlapping of their respective fantasies: Anakin's fantasy of total subservience, and Padme's fantasy of empowering the poor, damaged child. As Lacan would put it: Anakin loves Padme but, inexplicably, loves something in Padme more than Padme - and, therefore, he destroys her. Anakin's passionate hatred of the sandpeople is, naturally, related. Your emphasis on Anakin's 'unhealthiness' gives the series an unseemly therapeutic structure. In your version, Anakin needs to 'redeem himself' after the (personal) failure to protect his family. Anakin saves Luke so that he can purge the 'corruption' from himself, become a father, restore his human face, and die happy.... In this view he is not only rewarded with the life of his son, but a place in the literally-existing Jedi afterlife. But, again, that's not ethics. That idea of 'purging the corruption' is an ideological fantasy directly related to the purging of the sandpeople: the purging of the inhuman.
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Jan 11, 2016 10:44
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hemale in pain posted:In that case, you are losing track of the discussion. Let's go back to the beginning: idk what any of this means but i like star wars expecially the part where yoda does flips and poo poo
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Jan 11, 2016 10:51
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did anyone post 'mary sue' yet
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Jan 11, 2016 10:54
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MiracleWhale posted:did anyone post 'mary sue' yet in fact, it has spread to the startrek thread it is my hope that all threads about media will be back and forth sniping about "mary sues" by the end of the year 2016
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Jan 11, 2016 11:19
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Otisburg posted:idk what any of this means but i like star wars expecially the part where yoda does flips and poo poo Reading Zizek is like trying to appreciate Pink Floyd by reading the lyrics sheet. Its all nonsense, the art is in the delivery.
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Jan 11, 2016 15:04
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I just watched the movie and now I need to rewatch the prequels to see if I now like them more. Fin is good if a bit of a doof. Rey isn't a Mary sue, but there's no explanation as to how she learned to mind trick and force push/pull out of nowhere. The opening scroll should've explained the existence of the First Order better in regards to the utterly non-existent Republic
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Jan 11, 2016 15:50
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If Darth Vader turned good at the end up RotJ, why is his helmet telling Kylo Ren to be evil? Also, I'm assuming 'Ren" is a title like "Darth" (based on the "Master of the Knights of Ren" line) and that Snoke is from a competing Sith Dojo?
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Jan 11, 2016 15:58
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Applewhite posted:If Darth Vader turned good at the end up RotJ, why is his helmet telling Kylo Ren to be evil? he didn't turn good he just realized at that moment that palpatine made him kill his wife
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Jan 11, 2016 16:00
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Raku posted:he didn't turn good he just realized at that moment that palpatine made him kill his wife His ghost was chilling out with Yoda and Obi-Wan's ghost.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:03
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Raku posted:he didn't turn good he just realized at that moment that palpatine made him kill his wife Yeah but then he was like "take off my mask, I'm good now" and later got a force ghost with Obi Wan and Yoda and Qui Gon and Mace Windu.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:04
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And he even said Luke saved him. "Watch" movies? Pffffffffffffffffffffft.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:06
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Applewhite posted:If Darth Vader turned good at the end up RotJ, why is his helmet telling Kylo Ren to be evil? Because Kylo Ren is an idiot and one or the worst force users in the series
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Jan 11, 2016 16:07
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Applewhite posted:If Darth Vader turned good at the end up RotJ, why is his helmet telling Kylo Ren to be evil? Um you know that a mask can't talk, even in Star Wars,,,, right?
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Jan 11, 2016 16:07
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Applewhite posted:Yeah but then he was like "take off my mask, I'm good now" and later got a force ghost with Obi Wan and Yoda and Qui Gon and Mace Windu. It is a comment about the duality of man and technology and how they intertwine. The helmet, or technology, is the evil (dark side) influence on the world, while the light side (human) element is Anakin/Darth Vader's moral agency.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:07
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Applewhite posted:Yeah but then he was like "take off my mask, I'm good now" and later got a force ghost with Obi Wan and Yoda and Qui Gon and Mace Windu. that was just obi wan and yoda producing an illusion so Luke wouldn't think about his dad rotting in hell
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Jan 11, 2016 16:09
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Xelkelvos posted:Because Kylo Ren is an idiot and one or the worst force users in the series One of the first things you see him do is stop a bolt in mid air, which is probably the most bad-rear end thing any force user in any movie does, but then he turns into a whiny man baby.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:10
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Germstore posted:One of the first things you see him do is stop a bolt in mid air, which is probably the most bad-rear end thing any force user in any movie does, but then he turns into a whiny man baby. Like almost immediately too. I had completely forgotten that he did that at the beginning since he never did it again or pulled off any similar feat of Force using (unless that rant about how he took the bowcaster shot and means he's a badass is actually true)
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Jan 11, 2016 16:15
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etalian posted:The whole movie was actually a plot to make the whole world fall in love with Oscar Isaac. it worked  
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Jan 11, 2016 16:16
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Xelkelvos posted:Because Kylo Ren is an idiot and one or the worst force users in the series I like that he was a deplorable little poo poo. It makes him a much better villain than some Sephiroth Draco Malfoy bitchboi.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:29
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So is this the new Star Wars EU thread or what
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Jan 11, 2016 16:36
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Xelkelvos posted:I just watched the movie and now I need to rewatch the prequels to see if I now like them more. Fin is good if a bit of a doof. Rey isn't a Mary sue, but there's no explanation as to how she learned to mind trick and force push/pull out of nowhere. The opening scroll should've explained the existence of the First Order better in regards to the utterly non-existent Republic Finn is pretty much a punching bag throughout the entire film, but that's cool because he's a likable character. Rey is just a little too good at everything, can fly the millenium falcon real good, fix it better than Han Solo, better at lightsabre fighting than anyone else. But again its cool because the character is ultimately likable too.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:48
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Applewhite posted:I like that he was a deplorable little poo poo. It makes him a much better villain than some Sephiroth Draco Malfoy bitchboi. Yeah everyone who complains that he wasn't cool and in control like Sheev or Vader are missing the daggone point.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:50
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Vader was kind of a temperamental baby too. Just ask Admiral Motti.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:56
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Otisburg posted:Yeah everyone who complains that he wasn't cool and in control like Sheev or Vader are missing the daggone point. What is the point? If he's supposed to be redeemed, he should've been made at least vaguely more sympathetic rather than just pathetic.
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Jan 11, 2016 17:01
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Germstore posted:Vader was kind of a temperamental baby too. Just ask Admiral Motti. Or Admiral Ozzel
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Jan 11, 2016 17:03
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I forgot Vader force choked a dude over the TV.
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Jan 11, 2016 17:05
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Xelkelvos posted:What is the point? If he's supposed to be redeemed, he should've been made at least vaguely more sympathetic rather than just pathetic. The point is that you can't out Vader Vader, you can't out-Sheev Sheev. Look at the EU thread for all the poo poo efforts in that direction. You you need to come up with a new archetype. Look at how much the much as the mass media is flogging generational hate/fear of these entitled, whiny millennials. A weirdo kid who's dangerous because he knows space sorcery, hates his parents, and is emotionally unhinged is a villain for our times.
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Jan 11, 2016 17:11
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Applewhite posted:I like that he was a deplorable little poo poo. It makes him a much better villain than some Sephiroth Draco Malfoy bitchboi. He's basically Darth Millenial
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Jan 11, 2016 17:12
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Jurgan posted:Maybe he just doesn't like sand. It's coarse and rough, and it gets everywhere. Lol
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Jan 11, 2016 17:17
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etalian posted:He's basically Darth Millenial This guy? http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Millennial
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Jan 11, 2016 17:21
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God drat EU. For gently caress sake. There's really nothing too dumb that it doesn't already exist in the EU.
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Jan 11, 2016 17:22
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Holy poo poo, lol.
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Jan 11, 2016 17:22
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Sorry doesn't exist since the EU is no longer canon.
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Jan 11, 2016 17:25
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Falun Bong Refugee posted:I forgot Vader force choked a dude over the TV. Whiney little bitch boi.
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Jan 11, 2016 17:26
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I think blowing up a planet is more powerful than the force
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Jan 11, 2016 17:27
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etalian posted:I think blowing up a planet is more powerful than the force I guess its not canon anymore but I think the main enemy of kotor 2 would devour planets using the force, he would just kill all the inhabitants and life on the planet and suck on their life energy.
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Jan 11, 2016 17:34
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a bone to pick posted:I guess its not canon anymore but I think the main enemy of kotor 2 would devour planets using the force, he would just kill all the inhabitants and life on the planet and suck on their life energy. all the kotor 2 villians were so damned cool to my teenaged self they're still the best non-canon star wars villians imo
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Jan 11, 2016 17:40
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a bone to pick posted:I guess its not canon anymore but I think the main enemy of kotor 2 would devour planets using the force, he would just kill all the inhabitants and life on the planet and suck on their life energy. Sup? / 
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Jan 11, 2016 17:41
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Otisburg posted:The point is that you can't out Vader Vader, you can't out-Sheev Sheev. Look at the EU thread for all the poo poo efforts in that direction. You you need to come up with a new archetype. (Was phone posting so I didn't realize Sheev was Palpatine and not Snoke) That's all well and good, but it leaves the movie without any sort of reasonable villain that both the characters and the viewers encounter and agree is an intimidating, or at least competent, threat. Even Dooku and Maul from the prequels, as one note as they are, have at least some sort of presence and intimidation and look at least vaguely competent in what they do (even if Dooku was a bit jobbed at the beginning of Episode 3 after going toe to toe with Yoda).
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Jan 11, 2016 17:59
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