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Gonzo McFee posted:Frankie Boyle continues to knock it out the park every article he writes. https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/689548850412023808 https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/689549521316089858 
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Jan 19, 2016 21:53
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Earlster posted:A month or so ago someone made a really well informed post about Trident, but for the life of it I can't find it. Anyone know where it is or who wrote it? I'm pretty sure it was in UKMT and I've tried searching it but can't track it down. Wouldn't have been my nukechat would it?
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Jan 19, 2016 21:54
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Coohoolin posted:The 1707 treaty of union between Scotland and England created the United Kingdom and had a whole bunch of rules, like don't tax people in Scotland differently than in England (technically the poll tax wasn't allowed) and the principle Scotland and England being equal members of a union.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:56
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Guavanaut posted:I thought that was the Kingdom of Great Britain, which then became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801. So would Scottish independence dissolve the entire UK, or just the 1707 Act of Union?
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Jan 19, 2016 21:58
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Coohoolin posted:If your town was one of two supposedly equal entities that created the United Kingdom you might have something there, but otherwise all you're doing is deliberately and shittily ignoring and denying Scotland's national identity and actual supposed position in the UK. I reject the notion that certain people or groups of people should have especial rights over others. I can't say I give much credence to the idea that Scotland's part in the act of union should give its residents equal bargaining power to the entire rest of the UK population, and I also don't think that national identities are something you should be appealing to full stop. Nations and nationalism are something that should be opposed as ardently as possible.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:58
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Coohoolin posted:I'm sure the English will manage to be xenophobic enough on their own without covert SNP agents sneaking down in purple costumes.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:59
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Coohoolin posted:So would Scottish independence dissolve the entire UK, or just the 1707 Act of Union? As for the overseas territories, I have no idea. Maybe Scotland will get the Falklands.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:59
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tooterfish posted:That's a bit racist. Not really. He's English.
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Jan 19, 2016 22:00
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OwlFancier posted:I reject the notion that certain people or groups of people should have especial rights over others. I can't say I give much credence to the idea that Scotland's part in the act of union should give its residents equal bargaining power to the entire rest of the UK population, and I also don't think that national identities are something you should be appealing to full stop. Nations and nationalism are something that should be opposed as ardently as possible. Hurrrr nationalism is bad so nothing ever matters, just gonna ignore these things called "borders" and go to russia without a passport. Scotland exists as a national identity, what you're doing is essentially going "nope, no such thing, you're all british and whatever you want for scotland doesn't matter"
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Jan 19, 2016 22:16
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OwlFancier posted:Well I mean technically you can argue that by voting to remain part of the UK, Scotland also voted to accept collective responsibility for UK decisions, same as everyone else. Technically you could argue that water is wet and the sky blue.
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Jan 19, 2016 22:18
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Coohoolin posted:Hurrrr nationalism is bad so nothing ever matters, just gonna ignore these things called "borders" and go to russia without a passport. Scotland is a stupid of an idea as England, and Britain for that matter. That a great many people persist in those stupid ideas and that this necessitates a degree of practicality does not mean that the ideas a are good or a sensible basis for thinking. You are a person, you have a near infinite number of better ways to identify yourself than the geography upon which you reside. Or the silliness of your accent, or the type of dinner you like to eat. If you must have a group to define your identity as part of, you would be far better served defining your identity in relation to your beliefs about how people should live, which has never been, and never will be, something that correlates at all with nationality. Nationality and ideology are not the same thing and nationality devoid of ideological cohesion is an utterly worthless concept. I am English or British as far as it extends to my passport, and other than that I have absolutely no kinship with anyone else by virtue of that. If people share my beliefs, great, let's collectivize. But nationality is just such a patently worthless substitute for that. The sooner someone rubs the borders off the map the better. They're a retarded idea and one of the few things good about Britain as a concept is that it functionally erased a few of them. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 22:23
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OwlFancier posted:Scotland is a stupid of an idea as England, and Britain for that matter. That a great many people persist in those stupid ideas and that this necessitates a degree of practicality does not mean that the ideas a are good or a sensible basis for thinking. Right got it you're sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring reality. "lol silly scots thinking they live in a place called scotland and have some collective cultural consciousness"
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Jan 19, 2016 22:31
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I live in a place called England and I presumably am supposed to have some degree of collective cultural consciousness but gently caress that if it means I'm going to identify with some wankstain tory from the home counties. Nationalism would demand that, so gently caress nationalism. You're my mate if you're a socialist and I don't care where you live.
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Jan 19, 2016 22:34
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Guavanaut posted:That depends entirely on the legislation that the two parties hypothetically agreed to. It would be interesting what happened with NI, as the Unionists there like to talk about their historical connection with Scotland far more than they talk about England or Wales. The DUP pretty much said an independent Scotland would make them sad but it wouldn't change their opinion on the Union. They where massively against Scottish independence but where smart enough to keep their neb out cause Peter Robinson shouting up the union wouldn't have done the yes campaign any favours. Same way SF quietly where quite supportive of the whole thing but realised them getting involved again wouldn't do many favors to anyone, though anecdotally I know a couple of SF guys who went over to help campaign for a yes vote (not under the party banner of course)
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Jan 19, 2016 22:41
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OwlFancier posted:I live in a place called England and I presumably am supposed to have some degree of collective cultural consciousness but gently caress that if it means I'm going to identify with some wankstain tory from the home counties. Nationalism would demand that, so gently caress nationalism. You're my mate if you're a socialist and I don't care where you live. The existence of national identities is not the same thing as "nationalism".
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Jan 19, 2016 22:44
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Coohoolin posted:Right got it you're sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring reality. Yeah, listen to this Swiss tourist and you might learn a thing or two about Scottish identity. Also don't worry, Scotland will throw out as much xenophobia as England on the whole EU thing. The only question is whether spite of England overcomes dislike of foreigners. 
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Jan 19, 2016 22:45
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Argentina’s President Mauricio Macri said he wants to start a “new kind of relationship” with Britain over the Falkland Islandsquote:“We’ll continue with the claim but I will try to start a new type of relationship,” he said. Pressed whether this would mean more trade, better transport links and other changes requested by the islanders, he avoided specifics. “I want to sit down and start talking about the subject and in the meantime find in which ways we can cooperate.” Ah, the irony.
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Jan 19, 2016 22:46
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Kozel is shite though
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Jan 19, 2016 22:48
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I'm arguing there is no meaningful national identity which justifies the formation of a political entity around it. Any nation will immediately form a political split, you can't keep splitting the political borders further and further until you end up with everyone in their own house with their own border control, and that's what you'd have to do to make nations and politics align. I am not of the same political disposion as most of the UK, or most of England, or probably even most of my town, and that is a far more legitimate basis for an identity and "nation" than the fact that we probably all like yorkshire puddings and the proclaimers. But it's farcical to suggest I could found a nation based on that political belief and even more farcical to suggest I could form one with the justification of politics but conveinently using some historic ethnic border. Urgh I've had too much to drink and I should go to bed as I'm not arguing very well. Swearing about socialsim is probably not the best loss coping mechanism. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Jan 19, 2016 |
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Jan 19, 2016 22:49
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Coohoolin posted:Right got it you're sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring reality. He's not saying they don't exist. He's saying you shouldn't appeal to them. Arguing that Scotland would be better off economically and more politically cohesive after an independence vote, a fine argument I guess, although one I disagree with. Saying 'the cultural mythologiy is prettier than in England therefore Scotland should turn over its whole society and economy to be true to itself' is an extremely bad and naive opinion to have in this day and age. I just think you're trying really hard to compensate for being new to the country and that manifests itself in these embarrassing Braveheart-esque statements you make. Don't let insecurity over your identity cloud your common sense.
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Jan 19, 2016 22:54
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jabby posted:Argentina’s President Mauricio Macri said he wants to start a “new kind of relationship” with Britain over the Falkland Islands LOL loving Lefty wants to sit down and talk with the militaristic imperialists gently caress HIM
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Jan 19, 2016 22:55
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TheRat posted:https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/689548850412023808 Wow dude,  tag that poo poo.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:01
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jabby posted:Argentina’s President Mauricio Macri said he wants to start a “new kind of relationship” with Britain over the Falkland Islands Oh man the press are sure going to rip right into Cameron for doing exactly what Corbyn suggested.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:05
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OwlFancier posted:
I think you're arguing fine, for the record. Some of the best anti nationalist stuff I've read in ages.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:07
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lmaoboy1998 posted:He's not saying they don't exist. He's saying you shouldn't appeal to them. No, he's saying Scotland as a cultural or political entity doesn't exist and therefore has no basis for independence sentiment.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:07
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Gonzo McFee posted:Oh man the press are sure going to rip right into Cameron for doing exactly what Corbyn suggested. lol, like Cameron will actually sit down with him. He'll pronounce some ridiculous condition to any negotiation that the Argentinians couldn't hope to meet and no major news outlet in this country will criticise him for it. Much like the former leaders of Argentina in that regard. Corbyn should go and have a chat with him and give him some jam.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:09
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thespaceinvader posted:lol, like Cameron will actually sit down with him. He'll pronounce some ridiculous condition to any negotiation that the Argentinians couldn't hope to meet and no major news outlet in this country will criticise him for it. And tell him that's all he's getting. So it's going to have to be some really good jam.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:14
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Coohoolin posted:No, he's saying Scotland as a cultural or political entity doesn't exist and therefore has no basis for independence sentiment. He really, really, isn't. At least, that's not my reading. It exists and can be a basis for sentiment. It just isn't a very good basis for sentiment. It would be better if you didn't use it. But you can if you like.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:14
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Coohoolin posted:No, he's saying Scotland as a cultural or political entity doesn't exist and therefore has no basis for independence sentiment. No, he isn't. In fact what he's saying is that political ideology (or any ideology) is a far better basis for grouping together than accidents of geography. I'd really have expected that to line up with your feeling that Scotland's more left-wing views give it a reason not to be part of the otherwise more right-wing United Kingdom. I thought that was the whole basis of the civic nationalism argument - it's not the land you were born on or your ancestry that should matter, it's your desire to be part of a Scotland based on such-and-such ideals.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:17
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OrthoTrot posted:He really, really, isn't. At least, that's not my reading. It exists and can be a basis for sentiment. It just isn't a very good basis for sentiment. It would be better if you didn't use it. But you can if you like. The whole thing started with him going "I don't see why Scotland should have another referendum if it gets dragged out of the EU, after all it voted No and should put up and shut up with whatever the UK wants" because Scotland isn't a significant entity in the UK or whatever.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:17
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thespaceinvader posted:lol, like Cameron will actually sit down with him. He'll pronounce some ridiculous condition to any negotiation that the Argentinians couldn't hope to meet and no major news outlet in this country will criticise him for it. What if this precondition is something shocking like the right to self determination of the Falkland Islanders is paramount?
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Jan 19, 2016 23:23
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big scary monsters posted:No, he isn't. In fact what he's saying is that political ideology (or any ideology) is a far better basis for grouping together than accidents of geography. I'd really have expected that to line up with your feeling that Scotland's more left-wing views give it a reason not to be part of the otherwise more right-wing United Kingdom. I thought that was the whole basis of the civic nationalism argument - it's not the land you were born on or your ancestry that should matter, it's your desire to be part of a Scotland based on such-and-such ideals. I agree that ideology trumps geographical accidents but I never argued in favour of geographical accidents. My point is just that Scotland exists as a distinct entity in the UK and has every reason to not want to go along with UK decisions like Brexit, nor should it be expected to. Which, again, is what started this whole thing.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:30
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Cerv posted:What if this precondition is something shocking like the right to self determination of the Falkland Islanders is paramount? If it's that, then fine, whatever, I'm perfectly happy with that. But I'd be shocked if it is, because that's a perfectly reasonable condition. I've no idea what batshit bullshit they'll cook up but I'd be surprised if it's not something like a demand to station a destroyer in Buenos Aires to protect the islanders or something. E: on another note, the maintenance grants are apparently EVEL now which means they're even more hosed than they were before.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:33
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I will only negotiate on the condition that the President apologise for the actions of his country in 1982, as well as those of Diego Maradona in 1986 and Diego Simeone in 1998. He must also sign a document confirming that Britain rules and Argentina drools, and cede ownership of that bit of Patagonia where all the Welsh people are.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:33
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DesperateDan posted:Wouldn't have been my nukechat would it? Yes, thank you! So tired of arguments with lack of facts.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:35
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thespaceinvader posted:If it's that, then fine, whatever, I'm perfectly happy with that. But I'd be shocked if it is, because that's a perfectly reasonable condition. It's literally something David Cameron said a couple of years ago. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/apr/02/cameron-falklands-anniversary-self-determination
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Jan 19, 2016 23:36
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Cerv posted:It's literally something David Cameron said a couple of years ago. Yes, but the Argentinians weren't threatening to be reasonable back then they were being tubthumpy and warlike.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:40
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Coohoolin posted:The whole thing started with him going "I don't see why Scotland should have another referendum if it gets dragged out of the EU, after all it voted No and should put up and shut up with whatever the UK wants" because Scotland isn't a significant entity in the UK or whatever. I feel the nuances of phrasing may be lost on you, given that you have misinterpreted not just one but in fact every point under discussion.
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Jan 19, 2016 23:44
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Coohoolin posted:I agree that ideology trumps geographical accidents but I never argued in favour of geographical accidents. My point is just that Scotland exists as a distinct entity in the UK and has every reason to not want to go along with UK decisions like Brexit, nor should it be expected to. Which, again, is what started this whole thing. are you eligible for this vote?
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Jan 19, 2016 23:44
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Lol I'm hosed in Tory Britian thanks to the fuckers down south so I'm fine with The Troubles II: Electric Scotaloo.
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