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Flagrant Abuse posted:Reminder that this was not canon, but should have been: Turkish Star Wars exists...it's a crying shame Chinese Star Wars doesn't exist, based on these.
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Feb 10, 2016 00:48
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Wheat Loaf posted:I think the biggest problem the EU had wasn't necessarily it's, erm, let's be charitable and say variable standards of quality. Obviously, that's a problem, but as a project, I think its downfall was the obsession with making sure everything "counted" - the preoccupation with canonicity and trying to squash everything into this unified setting regardless of whether it fit or not (and I say this as someone who was dead keen on all the reference books and Essential Guides). Well, the idea of making a grand tapestry of stories all in the same shared space is really interesting, I think, the concept of this vast universe discovered bit by bit through different perspectives, but the Sith is in the details: trying to mix things made before the decision to keep canon (Old Marvels, Han/Lando Adventures, Dailies, old magazine supplements), specialised products (young readers, video games, short stories, RPG fluff) and the mainline novels and comics resulted in a lot of pileups on the highway to canonicity. Maybe there should have been time and notability cutoffs, I don't know. Like you said, it worked okay when it was Zahn, Stackpole, Allston and co just going "-Hey, WEG fluff is kinda nice! -Can I use this guy? -Sure, why not." It wasn't perfect by any means, but this is where a "broad strokes" approach is handy; that's how KJA wacky stuff can be reconciled. It did crumble under the weight of first the NJO (too many cooks?) and especially the DNT/LOTF/FOTJ mess, the Denning/Traviss civil war, the prequelization of the post-NJO (especially bad for the Jedi Order), the Old Republic going every which way, revisiting post-Yavin again, etc. It is going to be interesting to see this redevelop, the first guide (Ultimate SW, I think?) is already obsolete in a few places. e: Wookieepedia is more the symptom, no? ecureuilmatrix fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Feb 10, 2016 |
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Feb 10, 2016 03:15
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Preechr posted:"Guy who tells Thrawn about stupid EU poo poo" will always be canon in my heart. Agreed.
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Feb 10, 2016 03:53
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ecureuilmatrix posted:Well, the idea of making a grand tapestry of stories all in the same shared space is really interesting, I think, the concept of this vast universe discovered bit by bit through different perspectives, but the Sith is in the details: trying to mix things made before the decision to keep canon (Old Marvels, Han/Lando Adventures, Dailies, old magazine supplements), specialised products (young readers, video games, short stories, RPG fluff) and the mainline novels and comics resulted in a lot of pileups on the highway to canonicity. Maybe there should have been time and notability cutoffs, I don't know. The NJO is definitely where I checked out on the EU. Not that I was a prolific consumer of it, but I never read another SW EU book after the first few in that series.
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Feb 10, 2016 04:23
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The mid 90's were the golden age of the EU. Some crap books, but nothing ultra terrible until the 2000s. Dark Horse was pumping out really cool comics. Lucasarts was still producing great games. Shadows of the Empire built a movie-level media and merchandise push out of a single book, which is impressive in itself. And you still had writers willing to experiment with the universe and do weird and creative stuff.
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Feb 10, 2016 06:54
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Big Mean Jerk posted:The mid 90's were the golden age of the EU. Some crap books, but nothing ultra terrible until the 2000s. Dark Horse was pumping out really cool comics. Lucasarts was still producing great games. Shadows of the Empire built a movie-level media and merchandise push out of a single book, which is impressive in itself. And you still had writers willing to experiment with the universe and do weird and creative stuff. Exactly. See, I can't hate Stackpole. I understand that his prose isn't great, I get that this space battles are basically him recounting his games of X-Wing VS Tie Fighter, I know that Corran Horn is essentially a self-insert Mary Sue, and I can certainly see how his characters have a tendency to monologue at the drop of a hat and always close chapters on a dramatic statement. But - and stay with me here, because this is going to be contentious - I do think his X-Wing books were fantastic about displaying a lot more depth in the Star Wars universe, while retaining the pulp space opera feel that later EU works essentially misplaced in their race to capture the Warhammer 40k audience. There's this certain level of earnest charm about the Stackpole novels that keeps them entertaining. The Rogue series is probably one of the few SW EU works that demonstrated that aliens weren't all the same. You had a Gand fighter pilot, a Twi'lek lawyer, a Bothan iconoclast, among others. It's a series that touched on things like, what are human/alien relations like on a political level and on a personal level. We get to see the Imperial perspective on the Battle of Endor at a museum, as well as many other things that authors generally shy away from. Even if it's a bit of a laugh, it shows that Stackpole understood that the Empire was pulp evil and understood the tone of what he was dealing with. But, even then, you had the Krytos virus to demonstrate some stuff about the universe that, again, isn't touched on. And other things, like Borsk Fey'lya's powerplays by leaning on the Bothan martyrs gave everything a dose of realism without making Borsk a caricature - he's just a politician who puts his own people first, in a galaxy where no one really seems to care about aliens. Sure, we can all have a laugh about Corran loving a Selonian, but it always struck me as strange - and still does, honestly, when you look at the EU - with how Star Wars handles aliens. Aliens exist but they operate as stereotypes and very few authors are prepared to challenge them, even when they could write whatever they want. Every Twi'lek has some history with the slave trade, for example, and I'd say most Twi'lek's featured in the EU are female. They're stereotypes on a conceptual level but they also feel like they're second-class citizens, even in the Rebel Alliance. For the most part, it's like you have this Rebel Alliance that is, apparently, fighting against a human-centric Empire where there's still this sense of segregation. It's like 'Sure, I'll fight for alien rights, but I wouldn't want my kids dating one (unless it's a sexy Twi'lek)'. Rogue Squadron felt like a series where aliens got to do things beyond be a token member of their race. Like you said, the X-Wing books definitely feel like Stackpole had more freedom to wander around the universe and examine it in more depth, maybe because there was no imposed metaplot that basically consumed later works. One of my favorite scenes in the X-Wing series is when the Rogues are hiding out on Coruscant in a dingy nightclub and Gavin's anxiety about Asyr's attempts to dance with him is misread as racism by an alien who can sense emotions. It's simple, character-based, and shows how these characters view the world. I don't know if you'd get something like that in the post-NJO EU - at least, without it being wrapped up in some kind of important event. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Feb 10, 2016 |
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Feb 10, 2016 08:47
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ecureuilmatrix posted:It did crumble under the weight of first the NJO (too many cooks?) and especially the DNT/LOTF/FOTJ mess, the Denning/Traviss civil war, the prequelization of the post-NJO (especially bad for the Jedi Order), the Old Republic going every which way, revisiting post-Yavin again, etc. NJO was definitely bloated. The DNT/LOTF/FOTJ sequence (disclaimer: I've never read FOTJ) were what put me off Star Wars for a few years, because they just seemed so unremittingly miserable, the very picture of the Internet stereotype about insecure nerds trying to pass the object of their fandom off as all hardcore and gritty and serious because they can't get over themselves. A lot of the Bantam era novels are pretty stupid (e.g. Darksaber) but I think even those ones had a sort of je ne sais quoi that made them loop back around to enjoyable (e.g. Darksaber); a kind of earnestness, as Milky Moor mentions in their post about Stackpole (disclaimer: this post brought to you by adolescent nostalgia). Like, I remember the original Essential Chronology was really up its own rear end about pretending it was a legitimate in-universe history book but there were places (mostly around the "ancient history" bits) where it managed to achieve this kind of earnest grandeur which I appreciated at the time. quote:e: Wookieepedia is more the symptom, no? Yes, that's probably fairer.
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Feb 10, 2016 11:16
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Yeah we joke about furries and gotals/bothans/whatever, but in the setting they're real sentient/sapient beings, and sure Corran fucks a selonian (Han merely fights them?) and Gavin fucks a bothan and Wedge fucks a human bird person (boy, Rogue Squadron has all the fun there, huh), but they're supposed to be somewhat like actual relationships (that you ... just happen to not be able to reproduce with them ever, but I think even Wraith Squadron deals with that issue a little--one of the couples talks about adopting?). How old EU dealt with it, it's closer to, like, homosexual marriage, rather than self-insert completely masturbatory fantasy. e: I liked the follow-through with the Wraith relationships that Allston put in in his works--like Donos and 'Kirney Slane', or Face and Dia, basically the only high points in the late EU (I need to re-read Mercy Kill) VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Feb 10, 2016 |
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Feb 10, 2016 18:20
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Old EU also had the gay Mandalorian couple that didn't need a massive advertisement campaign to show how progressive the fandom was. You can't fault Traviss for that.
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Feb 10, 2016 19:04
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Raynar hosed a horse, then his face got burned off. Coincidence, I think not.
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Feb 10, 2016 22:52
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Casimir Radon posted:Raynar hosed a horse, then his face got burned off. Coincidence, I think not. And then he became king bugfucker.
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Feb 10, 2016 22:56
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Pesky Splinter posted:Turkish Star Wars exists...it's a crying shame Chinese Star Wars doesn't exist, based on these. Sure some studio in Hong Kong during the late seventies must have tried something like Star Wars now. If they did, I want to see.
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Feb 10, 2016 23:04
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Wheat Loaf posted:they just seemed so unremittingly miserable, the very picture of the Internet stereotype about insecure nerds trying to pass the object of their fandom off as all hardcore and gritty and serious because they can't get over themselves. The NJO was long and often grim, I disagreed with some of it, but I could at least respect the attempt, the intent to go beyond Jedi/Sith+Rebel/Empire. After that, you put it well: it just got darker and nastier and sadder with no payoff. ESB is "darker" and "grittier", but manages to have moments of hope and wonder throughout. If at the end you think "Was all that for nothing?", it might not be a good sign. Like, Shatterpoint is dark, Traitor has  scenes, but they go somewhere with it, they give characterization or narrative payoffs. Post-NJO didn't really provide value at the end of all that character suffering.Wheat Loaf posted:Like, I remember the original Essential Chronology was really up its own rear end about pretending it was a legitimate in-universe history book but there were places (mostly around the "ancient history" bits) where it managed to achieve this kind of earnest grandeur which I appreciated at the time. Voren Na'al is my spirit animal. Wheat Loaf posted:A lot of the Bantam era novels are pretty stupid (e.g. Darksaber) but I think even those ones had a sort of je ne sais quoi that made them loop back around to enjoyable (e.g. Darksaber); a kind of earnestness, as Milky Moor mentions in their post about Stackpole (disclaimer: this post brought to you by adolescent nostalgia).  Honestly, I like it just because it made a laughingstock of the whole concept.
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Feb 10, 2016 23:29
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broken clock opsec posted:Yeah we joke about furries and gotals/bothans/whatever, but in the setting they're real sentient/sapient beings, and sure Corran fucks a selonian (Han merely fights them?) and Gavin fucks a bothan and Wedge fucks a human bird person (boy, Rogue Squadron has all the fun there, huh), but they're supposed to be somewhat like actual relationships (that you ... just happen to not be able to reproduce with them ever, but I think even Wraith Squadron deals with that issue a little--one of the couples talks about adopting?). No, that was Gavin and Asyr. They wanted to adopt a Bothan kid but Borsk basically says, if they go through with it, then he'll use all of his political power to ruin their lives because there's no way a human/bothan couple can raise a bothan correctly. The reading of it as being analogous to homosexual relationships (or really, just interracial ones) is pretty apt. It's why I always found it a bit weird that Gavin ended up with a human woman who I think had a name and no other information in the NJO-era. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Feb 10, 2016 |
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Feb 10, 2016 23:32
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Milky Moor posted:No, that was Gavin and Asyr. They wanted to adopt a Bothan kid but Borsk basically says, if they go through with it, then he'll use all of his political power to ruin their lives because there's no way a human/bothan couple can raise a bothan correctly. It also did get mentioned in Wraith Squadron: Piggy's alterations, while permanent, are not genetic and won't breed true, and on top of that make him unsuited to an in-species relationship. Good catch on that Gavin/Asyr development from Isard's Revenge tho, I'd forgotten that part of it. Yeah the "revert to status quo" thing with Gavin was really disappointing in multiple ways. Further because Asyr is never heard of again because Borsk becomes Chief of State after all and dies in a blaze of glory.
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Feb 10, 2016 23:59
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Milky Moor posted:No, that was Gavin and Asyr. They wanted to adopt a Bothan kid but Borsk basically says, if they go through with it, then he'll use all of his political power to ruin their lives because there's no way a human/bothan couple can raise a bothan correctly. NJO was a bit over long, and a lot of it was overly grim. But it does manage to come together nicely. Probably because Luceno was deeply involved in the overall plotting of the series. Then Denning got ahold of the wheel and ran it into the ground.
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Feb 11, 2016 00:02
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Milky Moor posted:No, that was Gavin and Asyr. They wanted to adopt a Bothan kid but Borsk basically says, if they go through with it, then he'll use all of his political power to ruin their lives because there's no way a human/bothan couple can raise a bothan correctly. if i remember correctly, he thinks asyr dies. she gets shot down. apparently booster or someone else finds the crash site and rescues her, but she is in a coma,hosed up and maybe brain damaged. so publicly she dies and is hailed as a hero by borsk and the bothans and gavin never learns about the truth or something. gently caress its sad i remember that poo poo.
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Feb 11, 2016 00:05
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IIRC she left a message for everyone else and she's actually more or less ok, but she wanted to go underground and go after Borsk for ruining lives and something something Gavin should have his own biological children. Nobody told Gavin. It was really loving dumb and a huge misstep. Like holy poo poo the moral/political angle of that was awful in every way. e: I'm not gay, but I'm basically an incurable romantic. That's why I think Dark Empire (I, at least) is better EU than basically everything since NJO. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Feb 11, 2016 |
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Feb 11, 2016 00:06
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broken clock opsec posted:IIRC she left a message for everyone else and she's actually more or less ok, but she wanted to go underground and go after Borsk for ruining lives and something something Gavin should have his own biological children. Nobody told Gavin. oh gently caress thats even worse. I am sad that borsk doesn't die like the shithead he is. instead he basicaly blows himself up with a ton of vong.
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Feb 11, 2016 00:14
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Dapper_Swindler posted:if i remember correctly, he thinks asyr dies. she gets shot down. apparently booster or someone else finds the crash site and rescues her, but she is in a coma,hosed up and maybe brain damaged. so publicly she dies and is hailed as a hero by borsk and the bothans and gavin never learns about the truth or something. broken clock opsec posted:IIRC she left a message for everyone else and she's actually more or less ok, but she wanted to go underground and go after Borsk for ruining lives and something something Gavin should have his own biological children. Nobody told Gavin. Dapper_Swindler posted:oh gently caress thats even worse. I am sad that borsk doesn't die like the shithead he is. instead he basicaly blows himself up with a ton of vong. It's alright, broken clock opsec, I'm a huge romantic fan too. It's partially why Gavin and Asyr are my two favorite characters amongst the Rogues. Dapper is basically right. Asyr either deliberately rams or accidentally collides with a TIE Bomber when the Rogues are ambushed. She's fished out of the void later by Booster Terrik. Borsk shows up and basically demands her body so Asyr can become another martyr but Booster tells him to gently caress off because the body has fallen into the gravity well of the gas giant they were fighting over - but this is a lie. At the end of the novel, Asyr contacts Iella and, yeah, basically says that she's going to go fight an underground political battle to change the system from within and that she has to fight it the ways Bothans fight and that Gavin is strong and he'll get over it. Asyr even claims that she's "better off dead". From there, she shows up in no further EU work and there is no acknowledgement of her underground political fight. Gavin never learns about the deception. Borsk eventually dies a hero. Essentially, Asyr is killed off. If you had to ask me, it feels like it was a decision that came from above Stackpole. It's a huge misstep because Asyr is obviously talking from a position of grief born out of Borsk's threats, but they just... let her go off and fight a battle she can't possibly win. Asyr isn't equipped for that sort of fight. She's a fighter pilot and her numerous interactions with Borsk over the course of the series make it clear that she is too headstrong and too fiery for the political arena. Really, the conclusion of her arc seems to be a complete inversion - once an iconoclast, Asyr has become a typical Bothan who is willing to step over people to accomplish a political goal. Borsk bluffed her hard (Yeah, because a single senator could really deny two war heroes the ability to adopt children...) and Asyr fell for it. And fell for it to a ridiculous extent that she ruins her own life. Which means that Borsk basically gets what he wants in the end, right? Like you said, the moral/political angle of it is pretty twisted ('bigots triumph') and it doesn't really mesh at all with anything else in the X-Wing series. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Feb 11, 2016 |
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Feb 11, 2016 01:38
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Milky Moor posted:From there, she shows up in no further EU work and there is no acknowledgement of her underground political fight. Gavin never learns about the deception. Borsk eventually dies a hero. Essentially, Asyr is killed off. I actually never really thought that Borsk died as a hero in Star by Star. I always read that scene as him just realizing he'd hosed things up so badly that even if he escaped he would have been completely shunned from power (his singular life's goal) for the rest of his life, if he wasn't imprisoned or outright killed, and just getting it over with then was the easiest way out and to possibly salvage at least his memory.
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Feb 11, 2016 02:13
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Chairman Capone posted:I actually never really thought that Borsk died as a hero in Star by Star. I always read that scene as him just realizing he'd hosed things up so badly that even if he escaped he would have been completely shunned from power (his singular life's goal) for the rest of his life, if he wasn't imprisoned or outright killed, and just getting it over with then was the easiest way out and to possibly salvage at least his memory. "Whether or not this perfidious action redeemed him is questionable (indeed, some argued that he was irredeemable), but essentially Borsk Fey'lya died a hero. To both his people and the New Republic at large, he had become a modern day martyr, and his death inspired the Bothans, for the first time in centuries, to declare a state of ar'krai—total war on the Yuuzhan Vong by the Bothan people. In addition to this, the Yuuzhan Vong also respected him for his actions and believed him to be a minor hero."
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Feb 11, 2016 02:30
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Milky Moor posted:
I remember there being an oblique reference to her - I think maybe an NJO book (?) has a Bothan character mention how they had an instructor at the Military Academy who basically taught them to avoid the standard Bothan political stuff and focus on being a good military leader, and I remember it strongly hints at it being Asyr. I could be misremembering though, and it was a fairly minor and oblique reference.
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Feb 11, 2016 03:14
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This probably belongs in the CD thread, but that place is a blasted hellscape of smug nerds slapfighting over I don't even know what anymore. I just want a chill place to geek out about Star Wars. What are everyone's thoughts about Luke's role in the next movie? Is he going to be a passive mentor figure like Yoda? Or is he likely to be a main character working alongside the new generation like Han was in TFA? Think he's going to get bumped off at some point to up the stakes for the new Big Three? Will he start showing off some impressive force feats that put him on par with the PT jedi now that they have the technology? And what does his discovery of the first jedi temple mean for our understanding of the jedi and the force? I'm hoping he remains a central figure, even if he isn't the main focus of the trilogy at this point, because I feel like his character still has a few beats that I would like to see play out. I expect he will have a repeat of the Herald/Refuse the Call leg of the hero's journey as Rey tries to get him to return to galactic affairs. This would also work as a time for him to train Rey. He teaches her and she teaches him sort of thing. I'd also like to see him and Leia play off each other. It would be interesting to see them interact as brother and sister since we never saw them interacting in that context aside from like 2 minutes at the end of ROTJ. They would definitely need to have a scene of the two of them (Chewie too) of mourning Han together. Luke would also need to confront his failure with Kylo in some manner, whether that be with Kylo directly or Snoke. And this is probably just the fanboy in me speaking, but I want to see Luke kick some rear end as a full-fledged jedi master. Nothing as crazy as the old EU got, but after growing up watching the OT and seeing Luke also grow from a whiney teenager to a true jedi, I want to see some pay off. Just one scene of the First Order absolutely making GBS threads their pants when he shows up. Kind of like a reverse Vader. And he's got to bring out the green saber again. That thing was always cooler than his blue one.
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Feb 11, 2016 04:05
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I can see Luke training Rey but refusing to take an active role in the fight. Luke will then either change his mind and save the day in a big moment or they'll save his direct involvement til IX.
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Feb 11, 2016 06:46
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I believe that Luke will (more or less) fill the Yoda role in the next movie in much the same way that Han Solo (more or less) filled the Obi-Wan role in TFA
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Feb 11, 2016 08:37
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I recall that in very early drafts of TFA, Luke had a bigger role, but he only appears in the last minute of the movie because they were afraid he'd steal all of Rey's thunder. And you know, they were probably right. Even though they blew up 5 planets in a row and decapitated the Republic, the First Order just doesn't come across as all that threatening to me. Kylo Ren gets punked by Rey who has had no formal training. He's no Darth Vader. Maybe Snoke is some kinda badass or something. Luke is probably the most powerful person in the Galaxy and Rey probably has the potential to be. It's just that Rey is untrained and Luke is so tired of all these Star Wars. Part of what made the OT so appealing was that it was about the underdog who was up against a vastly more powerful foe.
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Feb 11, 2016 16:25
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I think that reflects more on the hazy and unclear state of the galaxy. TFA didn't do a great job outlining the relationships between the New Republic, the Resistance, The First Order, and the Imperial Remnant. And I even may be loving that up because it was glossed over so quickly. However, I did get the feeling during the movie that The First Order, as presented, is just the tip of the organizational iceberg. Everything in the movie is just related to Starkiller Base. The Knights of Ren, Snoke, and the rest of the First Order navy were all elsewhere, kinda like how the Emperor and the Empire were referenced generally in ANH. I really hope Episode VIII fills in some of those gaps (like how ESB did after ANH).
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Feb 11, 2016 16:39
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Thwomp posted:I think that reflects more on the hazy and unclear state of the galaxy. TFA didn't do a great job outlining the relationships between the New Republic, the Resistance, The First Order, and the Imperial Remnant. And I even may be loving that up because it was glossed over so quickly. Yeah, there aren't a lot of clues about the First Order's relation to the Empire, which is the biggest question I have. Interestingly, in the Jedi Prince books there's an off-hand mention of a character named Snoke that died off-screen. Could the Mofference still be a part of Star Wars? 
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Feb 11, 2016 17:13
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SirPhoebos posted:Yeah, there aren't a lot of clues about the First Order's relation to the Empire, which is the biggest question I have. THIS IS *STILL* CANON
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Feb 11, 2016 17:22
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Would pay good money to hear Kylo say "I bid you dark greetings!".
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Feb 11, 2016 18:11
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Need to get Hux a pair of blaster earrings.
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Feb 11, 2016 19:10
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I'm sure Domhnall Gleeson would be up for filing all his teeth down to points.
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Feb 11, 2016 21:45
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broken clock opsec posted:THIS IS *STILL* CANON I'd heard of the Mofference in this thread and never bothered to look it up. I had no idea how deep this whole thing went; you guys have been holding back the good stuff. The Mofference takes place in the Mofference room of the Moffship. Goddammit.
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Feb 12, 2016 00:16
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It's obvious what the story in VIII will be - the First Order found Vader's burnt, melted helmet, but there was one thing missing...one piece not with his armour...not melted on the pyre...Kylo Ren must search for...The GLOVE OF DARTH VADER 
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Feb 12, 2016 03:56
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Megachile posted:I'd heard of the Mofference in this thread and never bothered to look it up. I had no idea how deep this whole thing went; you guys have been holding back the good stuff. The Mofference takes place in the Mofference room of the Moffship. Goddammit. I bid you Dark Greetings as you enter the wonderful world of mustachioed Hutts and robo-Leia weddings
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Feb 12, 2016 04:54
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SirPhoebos posted:Yeah, there aren't a lot of clues about the First Order's relation to the Empire, which is the biggest question I have. from what i can understand, they are basicaly the new age cohesion of the imperial remenant and the sons and daughters (posibaly grand) of the old imperial officer class. i mean all the officers/crewers/stormtroopers are under 40 with one or two exceptions. they are a bunch of kids who doubled down on the imperial philosophy and doctrine. i guess they would the imperial equivalent of ISIS but bigger and with sun destroyers.
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Feb 12, 2016 04:54
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The Jedi Prince and Jedi Academy books were the first SW books I read as a kid. That, and old West End sourcebooks with their rad illustrations.
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Feb 12, 2016 04:57
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Pesky Splinter posted:It's obvious what the story in VIII will be - the First Order found Vader's burnt, melted helmet, but there was one thing missing...one piece not with his armour...not melted on the pyre...Kylo Ren must search for...The GLOVE OF DARTH VADER https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XyMePUidzs
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Feb 12, 2016 04:59
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Pesky Splinter posted:Turkish Star Wars exists...it's a crying shame Chinese Star Wars doesn't exist, based on these. Someone's never heard of Backstroke of the West.
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Feb 12, 2016 11:45
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