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orangelex44 posted:I dunno, if you're also running Mystics and Rejuvenators it can be a bit much. I've never lost a game and went, "boy, if I'd only had another Sundrop!"; at some point you need minions or removal. My losses as Lyonar I usually attribute to either excellent early draws by the opponent before I can establish board control, or an inopportune board wipe I couldn't compensate for - healing doesn't really fix either problem. In fairness, the impact healing has is a lot less blatant when you're the one healing since you'll rarely know that your opponent could have totally burst you for a lethal 12 damage last turn if you hadn't %(@#% Sundropped for the 4th time this game, mostly because this game doesn't have a chat window for him to express himself in. The opportunity cost to running healing cards is also a lot less in this game than others due to the 2-draws and fact that your General counterattacks: more life is more damage. I would cut Divine Bond and Decimate before Sundrop.
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Feb 19, 2016 22:19
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Feb 19, 2016 22:30
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amazeballs posted:Yeah that list is solid. At this point just keep playing it and don't be afraid to make your own calls on what to change around. Obviously don't be quick to judge but if Arclyte Regalia feels like a dead card in your hand too often its a good idea to scrap it. The only comment I have is that Sundrop is the best healing spell in the game and not running three of the best healing spell in the game is unsettling to me. Anyway, I had some time to sit and play my deck, and it worked a lot better then before. I took note of what orangelex44 said about a slower playstyle, and focused a lot more on strategy and control instead of early pressure. Take my time, think my plays through to the end, that kind of stuff you know? With the board strategy, this game really has a nice amount of depth and a lot of things you need to stay on top off. It probably also helps that I know most staple cards/aoe by now, and don't just stumble into them. Got to rank 7 with like two losses, and that feels pretty nice after being glued to 10 since early on this season. Granted, most of my matches were not against Vet or Van, but it's a start  Oh, and with casual being a thing now, I also started to gently caress around with other factions for a bit. Songhai seems really drat fun to play, but most of the good cards are real expensive. I lucked on two boars though , so I whipped together a deck. Worked well enough in the few matches I played, but tell me things if you like. 
Tin Tim fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Feb 20, 2016 |
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Feb 20, 2016 01:10
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The other part of healing for me is that, since I like Regalia, there is potentially a ton of damage I don't take. A couple stacked Regalia can be worth 10+ healing by themselves! Plus they become a huge focus for the other guy, who typically has to leave minions on the board that can become big problems for him later. w/r/t the Songhai deck above, it looks like you've packed enough of the rear end in a top hat cards in that it'll work fine. I play very little Songhai, but if you've got boars and Inner Focus that alone should drag you through a bunch of wins (in unranked especially). edit: and for the millionth time, gently caress Vetruvian. So broken. orangelex44 fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Feb 20, 2016 |
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Feb 20, 2016 01:36
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Have to say this game is hella fun. I've finally gotten around to getting serious about getting all the factions to 11. I started off playing the AI to do it but I saw some advice that recommended not doing that. So I started playing a mix of ranked and unranked. Even with just using the starter decks I've been able to win a fair amount of matches. Got Magmar to 11 and am working on Lyonar now.
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Feb 20, 2016 01:44
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Made Diamond finally! My ~0% win rate against Vetruvian cannot stop me when I'm 50% against Vanar and 75% against literally anyone else... sooner or later, the win streak goes in my favor. I even got desperate enough to craft Holy Immolation but after 10 games it did literally nothing for me, so my mental jury's still out on if I should keep it in my deck.
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Feb 20, 2016 03:44
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Holy immolation is good please don't remove that from your deck.
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Feb 20, 2016 09:19
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Every time my opponent casts Holy Immolation I whisper "gently caress you". Basically, GreyPowerVan posted:Holy immolation is good please don't remove that from your deck. I've saved up a bunch of gold to use in the gauntlet this weekend. Are there any good articles with advice for drafting in this game?
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Feb 20, 2016 10:00
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vulturesrow posted:Have to say this game is hella fun. I've finally gotten around to getting serious about getting all the factions to 11. I started off playing the AI to do it but I saw some advice that recommended not doing that. So I started playing a mix of ranked and unranked. Even with just using the starter decks I've been able to win a fair amount of matches. Got Magmar to 11 and am working on Lyonar now. Yeah you can definitely go straight to ranked. It's fun to play vs humans and you can't really do anything to 'damage' your rank since its just one big grind to S-rank. I guess doing AI games to get all the faction cards unlocked wouldn't be a terrible idea. Also do all the challenges. Its 600 gold and that's 6 packs! If you really don't enjoy doing them just look up solutions online but they are fun and teach good mechanics / cool interactions so I think they are worth doing on your own.It's exciting to hear people are trying this game out and enjoying it. I can't wait for Steam release.
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Feb 20, 2016 10:03
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amazeballs posted:Yeah you can definitely go straight to ranked. It's fun to play vs humans and you can't really do anything to 'damage' your rank since its just one big grind to S-rank. The reasoning behind not playing the AI to level the factions was that it teaches bad habits. I do have to say that having done AI only for a while and then switching to playing live players I found that I started valuing cards differently and probably more appropriately Id guess. Enjoying Lyonar a bit more than Magmar right now. About halfway to 11 with them now.
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Feb 20, 2016 10:32
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I'd say play against the AIs for cards simply because playing against people without those cards kind of sucks. Since you only have to do it for a short while I don't really think it's a bad idea.
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Feb 20, 2016 15:38
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GreyPowerVan posted:Holy immolation is good please don't remove that from your deck. Oh, I know it's good, I just don't know if it's as good as other things for my playstyle. I've essentially gotten to Platinum without it, so I've got to be doing something right. I hate playing against it, but in Lyonar mirrors I've been doing pretty well.
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Feb 20, 2016 15:43
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I've come to the conclusion that I just suck at gauntlet. I apparently can't draft worth crap.
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Feb 20, 2016 17:22
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Stretch Marx posted:I've come to the conclusion that I just suck at gauntlet. I apparently can't draft worth crap. Happens to everyone. Some drafts just aren't good - I don't get a single legendary in ~50% of drafts, for example. However, most drafts should at least be able to get to 3-3 with good play. Curve out well, try to have some hard removal and AOE, a bit of healing, and a Big Threat.
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Feb 20, 2016 18:00
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Stretch Marx posted:I'd say play against the AIs for cards simply because playing against people without those cards kind of sucks. Since you only have to do it for a short while I don't really think it's a bad idea. As I said, I've had a different experience. Playing with starter decks I've been able to easily hold my own playing live opponents. And I'm probably wrong about this, but it sure seems like you get more XP playing live.
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Feb 20, 2016 18:17
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Found out about this game a few weeks ago and haven't touched hearthstone since; This game is very much "my poo poo". Coming here for some advice on my gantlet draft process, picked this deck a little while ago:  Choices were between Songhai, Vetruvian, and Vanar. I think Vanar was the right choice because it's less reliant on combos? 1. Memmerize, Azurehorn Shaman, Mark Of Solitude 2. Ash Mephyt, Maw, Polarity 3. Frostfire, Snowpiercer, Flash Freeze 4. Blaze Hound, Deathblighter, Hailstone Golem 5. Sun Seer, Fire Spitter, Planar Scout 6. Cryogenesis, Borean Bear, Wolfraven 7. Primus Fist, Vale Hunter, Repulsor Beast 8. Alcuin Loremaster, Boundless Courage, Winterblade 9. Wind Runner, Slivertongue Corsair, Crimson Oculus 10. Wind Runner, Azurehorn Shaman, Prophet Of The White Palm 11. Moebius, Aethermaster, Purgatos The Realmkeeper 12. Boundless Courage, Winterblade, Aethermaster 13. Snowpiercer, Saberspine Tiger, Crystal Wisp 14. Cryogenesis, Polarity, Arctic Displacer 15. Borean Bear, Crystal Wisp, Aspect Of The Fox 16. Dark Nemesis, Archon Spellbinder, Golem Vanquisher 17. Slivertongue Corsair, Emerald Rejuvenator, Wind Runner 18. Crystal Wisp, Putrid Dreadflayer, Bloodshard Golem 19. Polarity, Borean Bear, Helm Of Mechazor 20. Memmerize, Prophet Of The White Palm, White Widow 21. Rust Crawler, Saberspine Tiger, Bloodshard Golem 22. Wolfraven, Hearth-Sister, Healing Mystic 23. Crimson Oculus, Glacial Elemental, Memmerize 24. Stormmetal Golem, Young Flamewing, Rock Pulverizer 25. White Widow, Mark Of Solitude, Mindwarper 26. Blazing Spines, Manaforger, Cannon Of Mechazor 27. Hearth-Sister, Hailstone Prison, Polarity 28. Dagger Kiri, Ash Mephyt, Planar Scout 29. Snowpiercer, Avalanche, Stormmetal Golem 30. Glacial Elemental, Azurehorn Shaman, White Widow Since I assume that like myself a lot of people don't know what half the cards do based on just their names I took the time to link them to their descriptions (  x 90)Any and all advice is wanted- what you would have picked instead, how I should expect to play the deck, potential combos, etc. Waiting a few hours until past midday so hopefully there'll be a higher % of sub-par players online for me to beat on. I really don't want to waste this run so mad props for any help you can give me. Digital Fingers fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Feb 20, 2016 |
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Feb 20, 2016 18:22
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Why is there a person playing the Third Wish Vetruvian netdeck in unranked? edit: on the deck above, it certainly looks playable. Not sure I'd have taken the cannon of MECHAZOR, there's not much synergy there and you had pretty good alternate options that also fit your curve. I also would pass on Moebius, it's pretty trash while Aethermaster is amazing in Gauntlet. I never know what to do with the Dagger Kiri/Ash Mephyt choice that seems to pop up every drat time, they're both really solid - for Vanar, though, I would probably lean towards the Mephyt. As far as how to play it, unless you get an epic draft (sorry, you didn't), my suggestion is to play to keep dudes on the board as much as possible, don't waste your removal on trivial poo poo, be a little choosy when you play your Big Threat so it won't be instantly squished. orangelex44 fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Feb 20, 2016 |
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Feb 20, 2016 18:40
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Digital Fingers posted:Since I assume that like myself a lot of people don't know what half the cards do based on just their names I took the time to link them to their descriptions ( Polarity is crap and you mostly got shafted out of the best Vanar cards (Fenrir Warmaster, Hailstone Prison, Chromatic Cold, Razorback), but it otherwise looks fine.
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Feb 20, 2016 18:54
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Eh, Polarity at least has utility options, and his other choices weren't fantastic (3rd pick Ash Mephyt? Maybe, but I dunno.) At least no one plays around it so you can do things like trade Ironcliffes on the cheap.
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Feb 20, 2016 19:00
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Since you're coming from hs, chances are you played arena so gauntlet drafting should be familiar to you. And at first glance, it looks that way. There are only a few choices where I can say something. 10. Would have probably taken the Windrunner since 1/4 stats isn't good and getting the effect off is tricky at times. But you can make a case for your first 2 drop so whatever 13. Since you already had a Snowpiercer, Tiger would have been my option since it fits the same role but is more flexible 16. 100% Spellbinder. Like, that card is so hugely undercosted that it's a crime. Nem isn't awful, but too slow imo for what it does 18. You could have considred the Putrid here. Bloodshard usually doesn't survive a trade, and with like 3 buffs at this point there's a chance for the flying effect of the Putrid to hit big time. It's a cheeky play though so just a thought 19. Would 100% have taken Helm here. You need 2 drops in this game, and Polarity just isn't worth more than 1 slot. 22. You can really make a case for either 2 drop here, but I would have taken the Mystic since healing is very good and you already have some removals. Also 2/3 stats survives a hit by the enemy general and is usually prefered 24. This is an unfortunate pick. Like, Rock is very bad but you could kinda make a case since you lack 2 drops so badly. However the plain golem would have been the better value pick since it's a solid finisher. And even the Flamewing could be justified since it's a possible 5 to face carrier and your deck looks like it needs to push. Dunno, I would have probably taken the golem. 25. Would have taken a 2nd Widdow here. Mark is a very powerful board control card, but 2 in a deck without ranged minions is kinda clunky. Dunno, you can go either way tbh 29. With two Snowpiercers already, Golem deffo wins. Not the best offerings you got there imo. The lack of solid 2 drops makes you really suspectible to losing the opening clash over the mana tiles and then you need fast removal to catch up. Mulligan aggressively for your small cards, and maybe keep a Snowpiercer in your opening hand. Your midgame also totally depends on you drawing one of your 4 drops, so cycle cards to dig for them. Closing a game will probably require you to yolo push face once you grabbed the board, so try to think like hs Hunter after that point. Dunno, I think this will be a tough one since your card quality is kinda poor overall. With good play you should be able to grab some wins, but don't expect 7+ imo orangelex44 posted:Not sure I'd have taken the cannon of MECHAZOR, there's not much synergy there and you had pretty good alternate options that also fit your curve. Tin Tim fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Feb 20, 2016 |
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Feb 20, 2016 19:07
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Yeah I don't run Polarity in constructed because they seem really bad but I still thought they'd be more useful then Borean Bear, Helm Of Mechazor, Ash Mephyt, or Maw. I could be undervaluing Ash Mephyt though- especially since in hindsight the curve looks a little low and maybe the bodies on board would have been better even if I do think they're crappy. Hoping for some synergy between Polarity & Dagger Kiri, Moebius, and the Marks Of Solitude vOv Those where probably the 2 picks I spent the most time thinking on. I leaned towards Moebius over Aethermaster because I felt I needed a bigger body, really like Aethermaster in constructed but i'm usually using it to fish for combos and finishers so I didn't know how well it would go over in gantlet The blazing spines I passed on because I only had one Hearth-sister and no repulsor beasts, it felt like a toss up between the manaforger and mechazor. Ended up picking the ranged on the hope I could combo it with the Marks of Solitudes. 10. I don't know how to value the windrunners at all tbh. 13. Agreed 16. Agreed 18. Agreed, again 19. Surprised to hear that but i'll keep it in mind in the future 22. Made this choice off a (outdated) tier list, did feel wrong at the time but the hearth-sister was rated much better 24. See 22 25. Yeah a toss up imo 29. Yeah no idea what I was thinking. e: really good stuff so far guys!
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Feb 20, 2016 19:23
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I 100% agree with your decisions for 22 and 24. Hearthsister brings insane utility and despite what anyone says Rock Pulverizer is still a decent card, especially for a two drop.
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Feb 20, 2016 21:17
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1st game was a loss. Got cocky and used my hero to wack a 7/5 and clear his board, used my minions to bring him down to one health. Next turn he dropped a 10/4 and used Spirit Of The Wild to activate it and knock off my last 9 health. I shouldn't have tanked to my face, I could have spared the minions. 2nd was a loss. Just a bad draw vs a good draw and I was stuck with a hand full of spells I couldn't cast; lost that one fast. 3rd was a win. Snowpiercer + double Boundless Charge being the MVPs 4th was a win. Moebius > Boundless charge > Polarity. It was pretty great. 5th was a loss. Dude was rolling a ton of vespers and had some really good synergy. I got completely overwhelmed. vOv Win some you lose some. Thanks a bunch for the input friends; I'll probably end up doing another post asking for help again tomorrow if I end up playing. Cheers.
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Feb 20, 2016 21:49
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orangelex44 posted:Why is there a person playing the Third Wish Vetruvian netdeck in unranked?
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Feb 20, 2016 21:50
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using the term netdeck in a game that is fully online, just lol
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Feb 21, 2016 00:31
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orangelex44 posted:Happens to everyone. Some drafts just aren't good - I don't get a single legendary in ~50% of drafts, for example. However, most drafts should at least be able to get to 3-3 with good play. Curve out well, try to have some hard removal and AOE, a bit of healing, and a Big Threat. My first gauntlet run was Lyonar, and I drafted a really nice deck and made it six wins before losing three in a row. Second gauntlet run was also Lyonar, not as good of a draft, but I made it to six wins off the back of Holy Immolation like jesus christ is there a time that card isn't amazing? In at least half of my games I was able to use it to secure lethal by dropping a minion or two chaining close enough for the 4 damage to hit the fleeing enemy general. In the other half it single handedly swung board control back in my favor. I almost never play Lyonar in constructed, but I love them in gauntlet so far. Final gauntlet last night I drafted what I thought was an amazing Magmar deck, that just got annihilated by combo again and again and only went 2 wins. Felt bad since every loss I had the opponent on 1hp and I consistently underestimated the amount of burst they had possible in their hand from an empty board. My deck was a lot of fun to play, and I think the losses I just have to chalk up to not being as familiar with playing Magmar and not being as cautious as I should have.
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Feb 21, 2016 00:56
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Digital Fingers posted:Yeah I don't run Polarity in constructed because they seem really bad but I still thought they'd be more useful then Borean Bear, Helm Of Mechazor, Ash Mephyt, or Maw. Honestly, I would have taken any of those 4 over Polarity, and definitely over the 2nd one. It's just the kind of card that you really can't count on being able to play at all, let alone happily. Maw is actually pretty good as far as filler cards go because he trades up easily and at 1 mana, there aren't many punishing ways to take him out. Ash Mephyt is mediocre but not awful and probably goes up a notch in Vanar, where you hope to draft a Razorback or 3. Polarity + Dagger Kiri is not that great a combo since at 2 health, he's never going to survive to make the second attack. The other 2 are, I'm guessing, not the cards you meant- Moebius I suppose you can... switch back? and Mark of Solitude is the buff that turns a creature into a 5/5. GreyPowerVan posted:using the term netdeck in a game that is fully online, just lol Goddamn netdeckers copying the Third Wish + creature combo that they never would have figured out on their own.
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Feb 21, 2016 01:00
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3rd wish vetruvian seems kind of redundant
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Feb 21, 2016 01:23
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Gravy Train Robber posted:My first gauntlet run was Lyonar, and I drafted a really nice deck and made it six wins before losing three in a row. Second gauntlet run was also Lyonar, not as good of a draft, but I made it to six wins off the back of Holy Immolation like jesus christ is there a time that card isn't amazing? In at least half of my games I was able to use it to secure lethal by dropping a minion or two chaining close enough for the 4 damage to hit the fleeing enemy general. In the other half it single handedly swung board control back in my favor. You could make a pretty strong case for Holy Immolation being the best Lyonar card in the game right now.
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Feb 21, 2016 02:10
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amazeballs posted:You could make a pretty strong case for Holy Immolation being the best Lyonar card in the game right now.  It's deffo one of their like top 3 cards. Really crippling if the board is right and it can even push damage at the same time. What's not to love here? But I think Martyrdom will eternally be their best card. 2 mana kill almost anything is insanely good Also, rank 5 achieved! I had a pretty good time playing my deck now that it clicked with me. Saw very few Vet decks so thx rng. Also I got my first ribbon out of the deal which is neat. Does anyone know if unranked wins also count towards ribbons? Would be cool
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Feb 21, 2016 02:24
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Avasculous posted:Honestly, I would have taken any of those 4 over Polarity, and definitely over the 2nd one. It's just the kind of card that you really can't count on being able to play at all, let alone happily. Maw is actually pretty good as far as filler cards go because he trades up easily and at 1 mana, there aren't many punishing ways to take him out. Ash Mephyt is mediocre but not awful and probably goes up a notch in Vanar, where you hope to draft a Razorback or 3. Thats a good point about the Maw being able to trade up, think i was undervaluing it. The Moebius polarity combo won me a game in short order though, turned out p. good I thought. It was Boundless Charge onto Moebius to make a 7/3 > hit his hero > polarity which made it switch to a 3/7 which survived his turn and switched back into 7/3 at the start of mine and ended up doing 14 damage in all. Too flimsy a combo for constructed but with dispels being less of a thing in guantlet it seemed viable. MoS I mentioned because I envisioned myself using it on the kiri as a "Hit for 2> heal into 5/5> Hit for 5" or as a buff to save my Moebius from dying. Didn't have a chance to test that out though.
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Feb 21, 2016 02:37
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Eh, fair enough. If nothing else, I think Vanar is way more fun than Lyonar to play in Gauntlet for its underused cards and weird combos.koolkal posted:3rd wish vetruvian seems kind of redundant I just had a Songhai player spam me with "Zzzzz" emotes after drawing and playing my first Third Wish of the game around turn 9. I have to admit that I was floored by some of his own innovations to the meta- Tusk Boar, Inner Focus, Mask of Shadows, AND Lantern Fox in Songhai? Who thinks of this stuff?
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Feb 21, 2016 03:24
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I just had a great Duelyst moment. Still grinding the faction levels, just playing starter decks mind you. Had the enemy general boxed in, with a Storm Metal Golem on a side of him that none of his minions could get to. Finished the game with a double Divine Bond + War Surge for a 25 point face punch to end the game....that was fun.
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Feb 21, 2016 22:02
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How do you do those neat decklist images? I could use some pointers on what to add to my pauper decks next...
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Feb 22, 2016 03:17
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Ghost of Starman posted:How do you do those neat decklist images? I could use some pointers on what to add to my pauper decks next... Theres a site, duelestdb, I think, that generates some neat decklist images that show the sprites of every unit in your deck. I can't figure out how to export it though because I'm bad at computers.
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Feb 22, 2016 03:36
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^ After you render it to a image all you have to do is right click on it and it'll save to a .png for ya'  I just added 2 Aspects Of The Mountains, a 3rd Hearth-Sister and 3rd Hailstone Prison to my constructed list. How does this look to you guys? Recommend up to like, idk, 4 card subs you'd do- No legendaries though since i'm kinda strapped for spirit atm and don't want to disenchant my Lyonar and Abyssian stuff. e: Just got a Frosthorn Rhino out of a pack maybe sub out a Draugar Lord for it? Digital Fingers fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Feb 22, 2016 |
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Feb 22, 2016 04:31
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Neat; thanks! I was lucky enough to random two Third Wishes, so I figured what the heck, let's try and slap together a Vetruvian deck with what I have on-hand. This was my first stab at it, but I feel like it could probably benefit a lot from some tweaking by people who have a clearer idea on how to accomplish my basic goals, which are a.) survive long enough to play Third Wish, and b.) ride on the coattails of Third Wish's  Zirix Starstrider x1 Wind Shrike x3 Starfire Scarab x1 Pyromancer x3 Mirage Master x1 Saberspine Tiger x3 Dagger Kiri x3 Healing Mystic x3 Ash Mephyt x2 Jaxi x3 Primus Shieldmaster x3 Primus Fist x3 Entropic Decay x3 Scion's First Wish x3 Scion's Third Wish x2 Staff Of Y'Kir x3 Thoughts/feedback/playing tips welcome. Edit: Especially if Emerald Rejuvenators x3 would fit in there (and what to swap out for them), since I can use them in a couple of my other pauper decks as well. Ghost of Starman fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Feb 22, 2016 |
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Feb 22, 2016 05:13
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Digital Fingers posted:^ After you render it to a image all you have to to it right click on it and it'll save to a .png for ya' don't play sworn avenger, don't play less than 3 emerald rejuvenators imo. frostfire is pretty bad isn't it
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Feb 22, 2016 05:51
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The meta in this game is pretty awful right now. Keeper is hilariously overpowered, and is in almost every deck regardless of archetype. In fact every faction feels pretty similar with 3x Keeper, Jaxi, Healing Mystics, Emerald Rejuvinators. Given that 3/4 of those cards increases game length, every game becomes a slog. Just pick which flavor you'd like to add to your generics-- Ironcliffe Guardians Vs. 3rd Wish Vs. Latern Fox vs. Vanar's removal. Abyssian and Magmar have become second rate choices. Abyssian's only good deck archetype (burn), can't perform reliably vs the value combo of Keeper/Jaxi and the constant healing of Mystic/Warden. Magmar just got neutered way too hard in multiple patches. They really need to get that balance patch out asap.
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Feb 22, 2016 06:08
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Keeping in mind that there's much better players then me in this thread (why i'm asking for help myself) here's some small stuff i'd be willing to comment on. Assuming you don't have a lot of spirit to work with so i'll try to keep the changes minimal.
My picks are subjective of course but I think those are some good general improvements you could make to start with. Not counting my last suggestion on the list 550-650 spirit to craft all that. GreyPowerVan posted:don't play sworn avenger, don't play less than 3 emerald rejuvenators imo. frostfire is pretty bad isn't it I could sub the Sworn Avenger for a second Emerald Rejuvenator at least. Frostfires have been very good to me in my experiences. Putting them on a Mini-Jax, or Snowchaser or using them to boost for lethal has won me games. I did cut 1 for the 3rd Hearth-Sister though. Without cutting the frostfires what would you switch out for a 3rd rejuvenator? e: looking through my cards I have 2 Alcuin Loremasters and a Spirt Of The Wild sitting in my collection, wouldn't mind fitting those in if anyone could suggest cards to sub out (i'd take out 1 of the Frostfires for the sake of a Loremaster I guess) Digital Fingers fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Feb 22, 2016 |
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Feb 22, 2016 06:16
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