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This episodes settles it, then: Harriet Jones was right.
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Mar 7, 2016 08:31
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Clara's death is as hilarious as her character is inconsistent. Which is extremely. Oh season 8 Clara, I miss you. You were a terrible person, but you were a consistently terrible person.
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Mar 7, 2016 08:53
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Toxxupation posted:Doctor Who Good review, but please watch where you're using those temporal conjunctions, Occ. You're gonna put an eye out. Face the Raven is a really good episode on its own, and then Clara dies in a way that's satisfying and frustrating at the same time. In a way, that's better than her death being clearly heroic or clearly pointless. Burkion posted:Clara's death is as hilarious as her character is inconsistent. Clara became pretty consistently less of a horrible person after Dark Water (which was peak selfishness).
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Mar 7, 2016 09:09
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Face the Raven really drives home the season's sub-theme - which is that people who aren't Time Lords are really bad at being the Doctor. And in particular Ashildr again proves that even centuries of having the impulse control, self-obsession, and long-term planning of an ignorant teenager with a faulty memory does not make for a particularly effective Immortal Defender of the Persecuted. The contrast shown in Clara's better-informed-instincts leading to a downfall was far more reasonable in context, if somewhat overly drawn out in... um, execution. Ending Clara here was kind of a big thing for Capaldi's character, and I'm glad they made an effort to make it big enough to not be a "having completed her contract, she gets a boyfriend and wanders away" situation. Accidentally sacrificing herself to a plot-device to save a minor repeat character is pretty apropos for her and the show as a whole, although personally I'd prefer it was handled more starkly and with considerably less of a death chat. Also the trap street full of space orphans and broken villains is a silly enough setting that I wish they did a bit more thinking on it and work it into a later, better episode. Not sure how that would be good, but I still want it to be. Probably would be better as a Big Finish location though.
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Mar 7, 2016 09:29
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I felt much the same about Sleep No More. The notion that it all feels like a badly thrown together non-plot because it is and the villain was concocting a false narrative to lure the protagonists into its trap is actually very clever, it's just abominably executed and comes off as more utterly bizarre than really enjoyable.
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Mar 7, 2016 09:47
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Toxxupation posted:Sarah Dollard wrote this episode, not Steven Moffat And there are some interesting interviews with her (eg here) about how the episode evolved during the writing process, and when various elements were added.
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Mar 7, 2016 10:00
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Toxxupation posted:I mean, think of how absolutely nuts the ending of "Sleep No More" is. It's some guy cutting his way into the story, breaking the fourth wall only to tell the audience that everything they knew was wrong before evilly chuckling into the credits roll. That LITERALLY HAPPENED. It's awful stuff, on any empirical level, but on some guilt-inducing level it's fascinating. Well I think the answer is clear, Mark Gatiss was tied up in a corner while Joseph Lidster cackled away at his typewriter. I'm thankful every day that despite RTD being a big fan of Lidster, he never had him write for the actual show itself - because there would be a hell of a lot more Sleep No Mores. I did have high hopes for this episode since it was going to be a reunion of sorts between Reece Shearsmith and Mark Gatiss, who between them were one half of the amazing writing team (and two-thirds of the actors!) for the brilliant, experimental and very dark League of Gentlemen television series. If they'd captured even half of the sense of horror/comedy that infused that series this could have been so good. They did not  Toxxupation posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_the_Raven I enjoyed this episode for the most part but it is heavily overshadowed by Clara's death scene, which I thought was quite effective until the editing basically repeated the moment what felt like a dozen times before she finally hit the floor. It got to the point where it was almost comedic, which really didn't help to sell the Doctor's quiet fury afterwards.
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Mar 7, 2016 10:01
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Man League of Gentlemen is the best. Do you watch Inside No. 9, Jerusalem? Occ plz review this one faster than the last one ain't nobody wanna be stuck here
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Mar 7, 2016 10:21
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Escobarbarian posted:Man League of Gentlemen is the best. Do you watch Inside No. 9, Jerusalem? I haven't had a chance to check it out yet, but it sounds like something I would love. And anybody who hasn't owes it to themselves to check out League of Gentlemen, I rewatch it all every few years and it is always just as good as I remembered.
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Mar 7, 2016 10:36
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This is a local thread for local people, there's nothing for you here! I actually really enjoyed Face the Raven, but I agree the ten thousand shots of Clara getting dunked on veered into comedy, at least for me.
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Mar 7, 2016 16:06
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Alkarl posted:This is a local thread for local people, there's nothing for you here! Same, I liked FTR and I like Clara but the C-C-CHAOSDUNK shot was way too much
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Mar 7, 2016 16:13
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I think they were maybe going for an effect of "this will somehow not happen, the Doctor will swoop in and save the day somehow" by making it so drawn out, or maybe trying to get across that that's how the Doctor is feeling, "this isn't actually happening, it didn't actually happen, it won't have happened in a moment". I don't know how universal that is, but that's my internal monologue whenever something devastating happens, like dropping my food on the floor.
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Mar 7, 2016 16:15
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2house2fly posted:I think they were maybe going for an effect of "this will somehow not happen, the Doctor will swoop in and save the day somehow" by making it so drawn out, or maybe trying to get across that that's how the Doctor is feeling, "this isn't actually happening, it didn't actually happen, it won't have happened in a moment". I don't know how universal that is, but that's my internal monologue whenever something devastating happens, like dropping my food on the floor. Man, I wish I could appreciate food that much. Either way, it's kind of filmed like a daring stunts from a Jackie Chan flick. They really want you to take in all the work that went into the stunt/effect, so they're just gonna show it to you from every available angle.
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Mar 7, 2016 16:55
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And More posted:Clara became pretty consistently less of a horrible person after Dark Water (which was peak selfishness). But in the process she kind of backslid into being the EveryCompanion who does whatever the script needs instead of having an actual character. Like her season 7 self though with a few more thrill seeker moments.
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Mar 7, 2016 18:02
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Burkion posted:But in the process she kind of backslid into being the EveryCompanion who does whatever the script needs instead of having an actual character. I think that's kind of selling short how amazingly confident Clara is in her own abilities. She is probably the only companion who constantly faces danger on her own. She negotiates with the viking god guy, warns the Doctor while trapped in a Zygon pod, and basically solves the murder on her own in Face the Raven. Series 7 is actually the complete opposite of this because she is constantly clinging to Matt Smith for support. If anything, series 7 to 9 really show how she gradually becomes independent. And More fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Mar 7, 2016 |
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Mar 7, 2016 18:20
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I very much liked the portrayal of a companion as the Doctor's equal (or almost equal) for a change, rather than the Ponds (who were basically Eleven's pets) or River/Rose/Martha/Mickey. Basically Clara was the best companion since Donna, frustrating characterization issues or no, and I will Physically Fight you over thisAnd More posted:Man, I wish I could appreciate food that much. Either way, it's kind of filmed like a daring stunts from a Jackie Chan flick. They really want you to take in all the work that went into the stunt/effect, so they're just gonna show it to you from every available angle. goddamn Jackie Chan is insane
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Mar 7, 2016 18:29
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The best Clara is Asylum Dalek Clara. Duh.
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Mar 7, 2016 18:30
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Soothing Vapors posted:goddamn Jackie Chan is insane Jackie Chan is an international treasure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1PCtIaM_GQ
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Mar 7, 2016 18:40
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I suddenly regret all of the life choices that have led me to a place where the only Jackie Chan movie i can even remember seeing is Rush Hour
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Mar 7, 2016 19:08
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Soothing Vapors posted:I suddenly regret all of the life choices that have led me to a place where the only Jackie Chan movie i can even remember seeing is Rush Hour Start with Drunken Master and graduate to Rumble in the Bronx. Police Story is also good so long as you avoid the weird 2000s ones where he tries to be serious and sing.
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Mar 7, 2016 19:11
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And More posted:I think that's kind of selling short how amazingly confident Clara is in her own abilities. She is probably the only companion who constantly faces danger on her own. She negotiates with the viking god guy, warns the Doctor while trapped in a Zygon pod, and basically solves the murder on her own in Face the Raven. Clara's adventures in Season 9: Apprentice / Familiar: is teleported away from the actual plot; spends two hours following Missy around like a puppy and getting owned Lake / Flood: is in the wrong time period for the actual plot; waits around for the Doctor to have-already-saved-the-day Girl Who Died: attempts to talk down the villain but gets foiled by some peasant; does nothing for the rest of the episode Woman Who Lived: bravely faces the danger of Coal Hill's students alone Zygons: gets turned into a pod person; tells the villain exactly where to go because none of this matters; lets the peasants eat cake Sleep No More: sleeps into a turn-into-a-monster pod for no reason, apparently with no ill effects; otherwise does nothing Face To Raven: attempts to be clever, dies for it This is building on her adventures last season, in which she managed to not be killed by cybermen for five whole minutes before her boyfriend rescued her. The show insists that she's the Doctor-est companion of all time, but doesn't seem very willing to let her do anything Doctor-esque. If she's better than Amy, that says more about Amy than about Clara.
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Mar 7, 2016 19:36
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Lottery of Babylon posted:Clara's adventures in Season 9: You skipped two of the three examples I gave. You're also skipping the part where Clara faces the Master on her own, and tracks down the Doctor. These are all Doctor-esque moments, even if she doesn't pull it off as well as the Doctor might. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Clara is the Doctor, but it's central to her character that she's trying to be like him. That doesn't make her better than Amy, they are simply different characters.
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Mar 7, 2016 20:33
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Turns out you can make any character sound like a useless putz if you deliberately minimize their accomplishments  Big Mean Jerk posted:Start with Drunken Master and graduate to Rumble in the Bronx. Police Story is also good so long as you avoid the weird 2000s ones where he tries to be serious and sing. this i shall do
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Mar 7, 2016 21:15
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Soothing Vapors posted:I very much liked the portrayal of a companion as the Doctor's equal (or almost equal) for a change, rather than the Ponds (who were basically Eleven's pets) this is half breaking rule two you fucker also rory williams was a companion QE fuckin D
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Mar 7, 2016 21:18
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Soothing Vapors posted:Basically Clara was the best companion since Donna, frustrating characterization issues or no, and I will Physically Fight you over this I wouldn't say she was the best since Donna (I loved Amy & Rory alot, either together, separately with the Doctor, or as a trio - the best since Troughton/Jamie/Zoe) but she is definitely amongst the top of the revival companions for me. It's pretty remarkable given how poorly utilized she was in season 7, the chemistry she had with Capaldi was something special.
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Mar 7, 2016 21:40
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Toxxupation posted:this is half breaking rule two you fucker I did not mean to poo poo on the Ponds. They are good too. Relax. Jusssst relaaaaax.  Jerusalem posted:I wouldn't say she was the best since Donna (I loved Amy & Rory alot, either together, separately with the Doctor, or as a trio - the best since Troughton/Jamie/Zoe) but she is definitely amongst the top of the revival companions for me. It's pretty remarkable given how poorly utilized she was in season 7, the chemistry she had with Capaldi was something special. Those two really were amazing together, I will miss that dynamic.
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Mar 7, 2016 21:56
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Rory = great Ponds = okay
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Mar 7, 2016 23:41
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But Amy was such a great female character! Because she was sassy!
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Mar 7, 2016 23:42
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Sleep No More Sorry, guys, ironically I missed doing this one earlier because I was up very late watching a small child and had no attention for forums due to lack of sleep. A BSam B 2house2fly Angela Christine Enourmo Jet Jaguar Mind the Walrus mycelia Paul.Power Regy Rusty ThNextGreenLantern Xenoborg C Ajax 99 AndwhatIseeisme cargohills Lottery of Babylon Red Metal Weird Sandwich D Alkarl And More DoctorWhat Howe_sam jng2058 Organza Quiz F blasmeister NeuroticLich onetruepurple Overall Average Guess: 2.0 Standard Deviation: 1.1 Current rankings: And More: 7 Red Metal: 7 Weird Sandwich: 7 Jet Jaguar: 8 jng2058: 8 onetruepurple: 8 blasmeister: 9 Howe_sam: 9 Regy Rusty: 9 Ajax 99: 10 Alkarl: 10 AndwhatIseeisme: 10 mycelia: 10 Xenoborg: 10 Organza Quiz: 11 ThNextGreenLantern: 11 2house2fly: 12 DoctorWhat: 12 Lottery of Babylon: 12 Enourmo: 13 Paul.Power: 13 cargohills: 14 Mind the Walrus: 14 NeuroticLich: 15 Angela Christine: 18 BSam: 22 A three-way tie for first! And not too many episodes left to resolve it. We all kind of had the idea that the preceding episodes weren't too good, though (although opinions vary on how bad). So let's see how the last few shape up... idonotlikepeas fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 00:23
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Guess that means we'll have a three-way tie going into the finale too. That's pretty cool.
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Mar 8, 2016 01:11
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Escobarbarian posted:But Amy was such a great female character! Because she was sassy! Count your blessings, bowb. If Moffatt had any other kind of female protagonist left in him then he might have written one. You should feel lucky that Clara wasn't also super smug and yet another love interest for the Doctor. Even the illusion of depth and female empowerment is probably a decent step up for genre television.
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Mar 8, 2016 05:00
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ThaGhettoJew posted:Count your blessings, bowb. If Moffatt had any other kind of female protagonist left in him then he might have written one. You should feel lucky that Clara wasn't also super smug and yet another love interest for the Doctor. Okay I have to genuinely ask- when wasn't Clara super smug? I mean she was often wrong when she was, but she was smug quite a lot especially in season 8. And she was most certainly a love interest in season 7. A really poorly thought out, half baked, barely considered one, but one all the same. Thankfully they did put a stop to THAT.
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Mar 8, 2016 05:28
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Burkion posted:Okay I have to genuinely ask- when wasn't Clara super smug? I mean she was often wrong when she was, but she was smug quite a lot especially in season 8. I didn't usually get 'smug' from Jenna's performances, it mostly felt like overconfidence to me when she wasn't clearly bluffing. Although I can see where that's probably splitting hairs a bit too finely. And I guess I never really bought her as a romantic issue with Smith since he had gone pretty far through that with Amy-the-anti-Rose and then all that River wiving. Clara didn't really seem like a real person to me until Capaldi, and then she was his "pal".
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Mar 8, 2016 08:28
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idonotlikepeas posted:We all kind of had the idea that the preceding episodes weren't too good, though. All?
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Mar 8, 2016 10:52
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Soothing Vapors posted:I very much liked the portrayal of a companion as the Doctor's equal (or almost equal) for a change, rather than the Ponds (who were basically Eleven's pets) or River/Rose/Martha/Mickey. Basically Clara was the best companion since Donna, frustrating characterization issues or no, and I will Physically Fight you over this Super agreed. Clara was great for exactly this reason and I loved how often she challenged the Doctor or proved herself more competent than the Doctor.
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Mar 8, 2016 11:10
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http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4043 I feel this is relevant if a little late for Toxx's viewing experience
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Mar 8, 2016 20:16
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At this point I'm not sure if "We can time travel directly into the plot hole" is a direct DW quote or not
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Mar 8, 2016 23:03
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But Rocks Hurt Head posted:At this point I'm not sure if "We can time travel directly into the plot hole" is a direct DW quote or not I love the idea of the show going full on meta. It could be a spiritual successor to The Angels Take Manhattan in which the Doctor exploits bad writing to save the day.
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Mar 8, 2016 23:26
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And More posted:I love the idea of the show going full on meta. It could be a spiritual successor to The Angels Take Manhattan in which the Doctor exploits bad writing to save the day. There's a wonderful Patrick Troughton story from 1968 called The Mind Robber where the Doctor is engaged in a battle with a villain who is the author of the reality they're inhabiting. The Doctor gets hold of his typewriter and attempts to write his way out of the situation, only to realize that if he isn't careful, he'll turn his victory and escape into part of the story which will trap him permanently within it as just another character.
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Mar 8, 2016 23:35
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Why are so many of his stories missing I mean I love Colin as much as anyone that isn't Doctor What But we could trade some of his stories for just A few of Troughtons maybe? Not too many just Look we can keep Vengeance on Varos. I am told that is a classic.
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Mar 9, 2016 00:12
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