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Lord Koth posted:From talking with friends who actually played decent amounts of tabletop BFG way back when, massed Nova Cannon spam was something of an issue in that format too that was never really fixed. So if if Armada needs to come up with a nerf for them, and they really do, then they're going to have to come up with something on their own. Yeah it was a thing. The problem with Nova Cannons is that they provide a huge amount of damage without a counter since the range is so great. In the tabletop game they require the player to guess their range but good players had no problem with such a skill-based challenge. Making them less accurate is one option. Personally I think they could be addressed with a few things: 1. Make it so that the ship has to be stationary in order to fire them. 2. Include a random charge-up time before firing. 3. When the weapon fires have it identify the firing ship. The random charge-up time brings back some of the inaccuracy that the cannons are supposed to have, and revealing the firing ship provides a real consequence to the action.
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Mar 16, 2016 21:56
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Who changed beer's av?
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Mar 16, 2016 22:01
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I definitely agree with revealing a ship that fires a Nova cannon. Not so sure about the random charge up time though - introducing a randomized time period where your ship is completely useless after it's already identified itself would probably be an over-nerf and make Nova Cannons pointless. You wouldn't be able to use them at extreme range as they're intended to be used because the enemy will just dodge it, and you wouldn't be able to use it close-in range because it will likely get your ship killed to do so. I do think they should have greatly increased cooldowns, though. Being able to fire a shot every minute is kinda what makes them bonkers right now. They're intended to be a powerful first strike weapon for the imperials before they close in for broadsides, but since they're able to to be fired relatively quickly at the moment you just have players stacking Mars and Dominator fleets and playing keep away with blips. Giving them a two or three minute cooldown instead would probably do a lot to alleviate that.
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Mar 16, 2016 22:09
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Potato Salad posted:Who changed beer's av? Star Citizen thread. It is A Good Change.
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Mar 16, 2016 22:19
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I think the Nova Cannon did scatter in tabletop. It also only scored massive damage on a direct hit where a ship was under the center of the template, just getting slightly caught only did a point or two IIRC.
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Mar 16, 2016 22:19
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It's important to note that nova cannons are the imperium's big thing as far as distinctive edges go. Eldar ignore like half the movement rules and just do whatever they want while ork weapons traditionally do either intense damage, nothing or something in between since their actions come with a lot more spread in result. Nova cannons are supposed to be kinda good.
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Mar 16, 2016 22:26
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Psycho Landlord posted:I definitely agree with revealing a ship that fires a Nova cannon. Not so sure about the random charge up time though - introducing a randomized time period where your ship is completely useless after it's already identified itself would probably be an over-nerf and make Nova Cannons pointless. You wouldn't be able to use them at extreme range as they're intended to be used because the enemy will just dodge it, and you wouldn't be able to use it close-in range because it will likely get your ship killed to do so. Due to the delicate nature of this unstable technology there should be a chance that the techpriests cocked up with the ritual pushing of the button and that the nova cannon just blows up and takes out your ship instead.
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Mar 16, 2016 22:26
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I think just making nova cannon start on cool down will help with a lot of issues.
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Mar 16, 2016 22:30
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If someones fielding 4 nova cannons they have 2 battle cruisers and 2 cruisers which means they can afford battle ships. The problem with nova cannons is when your facing multiple nova cannons and you barely have a battle cruiser. The solution should be to rebalance the point system, someone who can barely afford a battle cruiser should not be fighting someone who is fielding 2 of them. The cruiser and below level is balanced fairly good though chaos getting speed and the only light cruiser carriers needs to be looked at. Add a system that locks out certain ship sizes so people who are vastly more powerful can still fight but can't use their powerful capital ships.
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Mar 16, 2016 22:30
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It scatters in the game too, it's just harder to tell. Between the travel time/small scatter, it's very possible to miss chaos ships at extreme range due to their speed and the size of the scatter aoe, and even at closer ranges if someone is using Ahead Full. I think the best first step would be increasing the cooldown dramatically so that people can't use them exclusively in some kind of idiotic keep-away game. Nova cannons, as mentioned, should be an opener for Imperium as they close and a deterrent against staying at long range for chaos and Eldar. Not the end all be all of their strategy. Starting with them on cooldown is a bad idea since that also encourages playing keep-away and you'd wind up in the shorter game modes warping out before the thing even comes off cooldown, which isn't fun. Aleth posted:Due to the delicate nature of this unstable technology there should be a chance that the techpriests cocked up with the ritual pushing of the button and that the nova cannon just blows up and takes out your ship instead. There is already a 5% chance for the weapon itself to be destroyed on firing, that could easily be increased but having a chance to deal significant damage to the ship is a really distasteful amount of RNG. 2 SPOOKY fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Mar 16, 2016 |
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Mar 16, 2016 22:33
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hard counter posted:It's important to note that nova cannons are the imperium's big thing as far as distinctive edges go. Eldar ignore like half the movement rules and just do whatever they want while ork weapons traditionally do either intense damage, nothing or something in between since their actions come with a lot more spread in result. This too. Nerfing Nova Cannons too hard would royally gently caress up the imp navy in the long run. Starting them on cooldown also ruins the whole point of a first strike weapon. I mean, the real problem here is what Arghy described, and in an ideal world the matchmaking will solve this problem for us when the game launches, but who knows 
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Mar 16, 2016 22:36
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They could try increasing the points value of Nova cannon armed ships instead of reducing the power of the Nova cannon itself. Have they touched points values much or are they pretty much locked in at tabletop values? Speaking of tabletop points, I think the various upgrades you can buy should probably effect a ship's point cost. Though I guess finding the right points value could be difficult.
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Mar 16, 2016 22:38
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Galaga Galaxian posted:I think the Nova Cannon did scatter in tabletop. It also only scored massive damage on a direct hit where a ship was under the center of the template, just getting slightly caught only did a point or two IIRC. This is the real problem. It needs to scatter and then only do massive damage if you get lucky and its a direct hit. If it becomes a real crapshoot if it'll do much good people won't rely on it all the time anymore.
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Mar 16, 2016 22:38
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Star Citizen thread. It is A Good Change. Has something interesting happened? I'm always hesitant to jump back into the cesspit.
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Mar 16, 2016 22:46
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That's the thing though. Like hard counter said, Nova cannons ARE the imperium. And they only come on two ships. Two good ships, mind you, but if someone is going hard on novas it means they have 0 ordinance and likely 0 escorts, and basically only broadside batteries. And neither of the battleship chassis have novas, so at higher levels of play people will be faced with the choice of occupy upwards of 1/3 of their point allowance with a ship without a Nova, or they won't have a battleship. Battleships in this game are hilariously swole, so that's a pretty significant choice to make. Nova cannons are definitely too good right now, but over nerfing them will just remove basically the only thing that makes the Imperium mechanically unique, especially once we get Orks and Eldar and all their weird quirks in the game.
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Mar 16, 2016 22:46
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2 SPOOKY posted:Battleships in this game are hilariously swole, so that's a pretty significant choice to make. A lot of the complaints are coming from low level admirals who barely have battlecruisers, let alone battleships to shrug off novacannons, though. I'd favor a matchmaker adjustment rather than some hamhanded mechanics fix, though.
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Mar 16, 2016 22:51
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I think Nova Cannons need buffing but with an increased chance to malfunction personally. They should be glass cannons that can break themselves, not constant small damage dealers. They're also crap by themselves and need other nova cannons to deal damage, one for shields and one for hull.
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Mar 16, 2016 23:06
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Or make the nova cannon do less damage to hull. Add technobabble to flavour
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Mar 16, 2016 23:10
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:I think Nova Cannons need buffing but with an increased chance to malfunction personally. They should be glass cannons that can break themselves, not constant small damage dealers. They're also crap by themselves and need other nova cannons to deal damage, one for shields and one for hull. Yeah, which is why people tend to go all-in on Novas. I think torpedoes being better would also make for more compelling choices between imperium ships.
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Mar 16, 2016 23:16
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Illegal Username posted:Or make the nova cannon do less damage to hull. Add technobabble to flavour Or change it so they don't deal great damage to shields, and rein in the heavy hit damage. If they can't crack shields and do too much damage on their own, then you need something more and that something is by definition shorter ranged.
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Mar 16, 2016 23:50
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Is the release for this still on course for this month? I've a few friends who really got into DoW2 and thus into 40k lore etc, and I think this would be a cool game for us to kill each other in.
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Mar 16, 2016 23:51
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I feel like an okay adjustment would be to make novas have way more scatter at extreme ranges. I feel like they're actually really accurate at the moment even at max range I can more or less get a guaranteed hit. There's zero reason not to start the game by firing off all your novas.
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Mar 17, 2016 00:01
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REPORT FROM THE GOTHIC SECTOR - I had a guy get mad at me and blame matchmaking after I slammed apart his three Escorts and starting running down his Cruiser with my untouched Dauntless vessels. He started asking me to let his Cruiser escape, and I let him know that being rude would get him no mercy.  He told me to get cancer and die.I was level 1, for reference. Couldn't even bring a Cruiser of his class. Had a laugh at that. This brings up two things for me, though. Is there anyway to report people at the moment, and more importantly, is the only way to stop a Warp Jump to destroy the ship? I had that bastard at a third health, and even ramming him about didn't stop him. Real bummer.
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Mar 17, 2016 00:04
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Von Humboldt posted:REPORT FROM THE GOTHIC SECTOR - Don't Lightning Strikes prevent jumps? At least,that's what I remember from the tutorial.
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Mar 17, 2016 00:07
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Any boarding action has a chance to cancel warp
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Mar 17, 2016 00:12
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xthetenth posted:Or change it so they don't deal great damage to shields, and rein in the heavy hit damage. If they can't crack shields and do too much damage on their own, then you need something more and that something is by definition shorter ranged. The fact they dont do good shield damage is the reason mass nova cannon is a problem in the first place, because it becomes necessary for the ships to be effective.
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Mar 17, 2016 00:15
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Torpedoes are useless against chaos though since no chaos player will ever let you get close enough to use them. You may get lucky with light cruisers and early cruisers but above that your dealing with ships that have 12k+ range. When you can field heavy chaos capital ships you'll see how much the imperials have to sacrifice to get those nova cannons to barely compete. I'm going to either reroll my admiral or see if i can respec because i totally understand the finer roles of imperial ships. Shields are hugely important because you can't begin to cripple weapons with normal gunfire until the shields are down. I liked the sword frigates with the AP macro+speed upgrade because they can quickly bring shields down and once you knock the shields down you can quickly destroy chaos engines and its pretty much game over.
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Mar 17, 2016 00:26
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And nova cannons having longer range (and a minimum range) is sort of the entire gimmick. As is firing them all as you close at the start of the battle. These are features consistent with the tabletop and give something unique to the Imperium. A cooldown increase (like double at least) would go a long ways. Silent running is really the best weapon against novas that people have right now. It's also great against ordinance. It's really great at a lot of things tbh. Especially as chaos (since this is mostly a chaos vs imperium problem for the moment), who have ridiculous silent running Tzeentch favor and decoy red blips. With a couple Tzeentch cruisers you can keep your fleet in silent running almost indefinitely while shooting out decoy blips to headfake your nova cannon spamming opponent. Tzeentch favor is silly in multiplayer, really.
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Mar 17, 2016 00:31
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:I think Nova Cannons need buffing but with an increased chance to malfunction personally. They should be glass cannons that can break themselves, not constant small damage dealers. They're also crap by themselves and need other nova cannons to deal damage, one for shields and one for hull. Two Nova Cannons, which is easy to field, two-shots all escorts and one-shots some - in an area with no counter. You can't see it coming, you can't block it with intervening terrain or ships, you can't brace for impact (it loving ignores armor!) you can't send up fighter cover to stop it. The nova cannon user doesn't even need to have your ship identified. That means if you're facing an imperial player with the level and points budget to bring 2 nova cannons, you can instantly forget about bringing escorts. They're already dead. And so are defense platforms or convoy ships (woops, there go two mission types you won't win anymore) and assassination isn't exactly fun either when nova cannons are on the field. Seriously how many counters are there for torpedoes? 5? 6? 2 SPOOKY posted:With a couple Tzeentch cruisers you can keep your fleet in silent running almost indefinitely while shooting out decoy blips to headfake your nova cannon spamming opponent. Tzeentch silent running is a giant "nova cannon here please" sign, because your opponent can clearly see the cloud you're generating. And seriously let's not forget the fact that fighting nova cannons just isn't fun. And neither is using them really. If you're using them you click the enemy ships and they die. If you're fighting them...you get clicked on and your ships die. Dodging torps is fun for both sides. Ramming is fun for both sides. Nova cannons just cut out the entire sensor game and the entire maneuver game. DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Mar 17, 2016 |
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Mar 17, 2016 00:33
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tarbrush posted:Has something interesting happened? I'm always hesitant to jump back into the cesspit. Nope. Just the usual insanity.
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Mar 17, 2016 00:44
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Nova cannons aren't that strong at all haha, they got a scatter and the chances of them getting 2 shots to land perfectly on a moving escort is absurdly small. Just space your ships out if your fighting an imperial player--he can waste his nova cannon shots on trying to kill single escorts if he wants. You really need to play both sides before you decry the nova cannon--have you tried any mission besides cruiser clash with a decent chaos player? good luck because the only way your winning is if he fucks up. Theres a ton of nuance that isn't apparent at all until you play for awhile. The only problem i see is the early game and assault ships which is amazing considering this is only beta.
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Mar 17, 2016 00:48
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Arghy posted:Nova cannons aren't that strong at all haha, they got a scatter and the chances of them getting 2 shots to land perfectly on a moving escort is absurdly small. Just space your ships out if your fighting an imperial player--he can waste his nova cannon shots on trying to kill single escorts if he wants. Have you played post patch? Assault ships require several runs to get the same effect you used to get from one now - they're really not that powerful anymore. Carrier fleets need to do a lot of fancy flying to win, which is great, and they really suck at several mission types. Also I've never missed a nova cannon shot. I simply don't see how it's (reliably) possible - the AoE is gigantic, and the scatter is barely bigger. All but the worst scatter is going to hit. It wouldn't even be that hard to fix it - just make it, essentially, a super-long-range built-in plasma bomb with a variable timer depending on distance (show a cool glowing nova shot flying in) that rewards player skill by doing a crapton of extra damage the closer you are to the center of it when it hits (or if you run into the projectile itself). Dodging Bombs is cool! Placing bombs is okay. This would keep the dodging bombs factor for the defender, but up the placement fun for the attacker so predictive skill is rewarded even more than with bombs. DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Mar 17, 2016 |
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Mar 17, 2016 00:52
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DatonKallandor posted:Seriously how many counters are there for torpedoes? 5? 6? Torpedoes absolutely need buffing, they're actually pretty garbage unless you're using them as a short range ram-supplement which isn't actually what torpedoes are supposed to be used for. Maybe they need to travel faster or home slightly or something, no clue. Tzeentch favor is only a "kill me" sign if you only have a ship or two Tzeentch. If the opponent is fielding 2 novas you can easily field 2-3 Tzeentch favored ships (since novas don't open up until cruisers and those cost almost half again what a Hellbringer does) which let you do a lot of shenanigans. You don't need to pack all your ships into a single cloud, or even have clouds up -necessarily - since most imp players blind fire at blips and you can spam decoys. Even if they're blind firing into a cloud with 2-3 line ships, they're literally taking blind potshots (that scatter) into an actually fairly massive gas cloud aoe. I absolutely agree nova cannons need some retuning but acting like they shatter the game balance is knee jerking, especially before we've even seen what Eldar and orks can bring to the table. I'm really interested to see if it winds up that Imperium is overtuned or Chaos under, once we're at 5 factions. 2 SPOOKY fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Mar 17, 2016 |
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Mar 17, 2016 00:59
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Arghy posted:Nova cannons aren't that strong at all haha, they got a scatter and the chances of them getting 2 shots to land perfectly on a moving escort is absurdly small. Just space your ships out if your fighting an imperial player--he can waste his nova cannon shots on trying to kill single escorts if he wants. Assault boats are not that good anymore. Keeping a bunch of dominators in running silent making GBS threads out Nova Cannon shots pretty much eats up any Chaos player who tries a distance fight. That said, a nova-cannon heavy fleet is either weak in a stand-up fight (Mars) or in certain range bands such as 6-9k (dominators)
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Mar 17, 2016 01:00
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The idea of it being near impossible to miss is kinda the point. Landing a direct hit (which can near one shot a light cruiser) is the hard part. Affecting a target is not. Seriously, they just need a longer cool down, and they need to identify the firing vessel. Bringing more than one Nova Cannon in a fleet is substantial investment for a number of ships that don't have a lot of other strengths, so ripping that fleet apart in the following few minutes before the Novas can fire again should be priority. Nerfing damage is not the way to go here. It doesn't need to be buffed either. Even four Nova Cannons is not going to destroy a Chaos fleet of similar point value unless that player is incredibly stupid, and those Nova ships are easy pickings once they've shot their bolt. And no, they are not as strong as some of the hyperbole in here would indicate. Yes, they need a nerf. No, they are not single-handedly winning games for the imps every time. Psycho Landlord fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Mar 17, 2016 |
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Mar 17, 2016 01:03
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2 SPOOKY posted:Torpedoes absolutely need buffing, they're actually pretty garbage unless you're using them as a short range ram-supplement which isn't actually what torpedoes are supposed to be used for. Maybe they need to travel faster or home slightly or something, no clue. I agree that the extra decoy signals are one of the few things you can actually do against nova cannons. Although using Tzeentch fully is one hell of a micro burden so I'm not sure it'd be that great bigger battles, or non-nova cannon fights. I absolutely don't see how Eldar or Orks also maybe being broken in their own ways makes up for the Imperium having something OP too. Them potentially having crazy stuff doesn't make the Nova Cannon any different.
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Mar 17, 2016 01:06
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Mr. Wedenhart posted:A patch just happened That note amused me more than it had any goddamn right to.  I guess I've no real choice but to pick up this game, being a WH40K nerd. I didn't realize before reading about this that Battlefleet Gothic was such a large subcategory of the setting, though. Any good BFG books? (good for WH40K of course, I know what I'm getting into)
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Mar 17, 2016 01:09
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I don't know of any books that focused on BFG, but those purple prose-y Ultramarines books that Graham McNeil wrote had some decent space fights in them.
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Mar 17, 2016 01:11
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I liked the Big Red Button noise so much I decided to make a ringtone out of it. https://instaud.io/l8W
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Mar 17, 2016 01:15
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I think nova cannons do need some tweaks since you have no real downside for not taking them. and they scale very well with how many you have in your fleet, one is an annoyance, two its starting to get serous, three+ you might as well warp out now
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Mar 17, 2016 01:16
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