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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You're supposed to compare it to well-written fiction. And thus we arrive at the crux of the problem - you are apparently incapable of appreciating anything that is not either lit major masturbation material or a satire of the genre.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:15
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ChickenWing posted:And thus we arrive at the crux of the problem - you are apparently incapable of appreciating anything that is not either lit major masturbation material or a satire of the genre. I really wouldn't put too much stock into anything BravestOfTheLamps says regarding criticism of fiction...their posts about Star Wars over in CineD are on the same level of "I've taken a semester or two's worth of community college analysis courses, and now I am an expert and anyone who dares disagree is a moron"
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Apr 11, 2016 17:18
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ChickenWing posted:And thus we arrive at the crux of the problem - you are apparently incapable of appreciating anything that is not either lit major masturbation material or a satire of the genre. How so? I've constantly mentioned good fantasy throughout this thread. And howw does "books that are not epic fantasy" qualify as "lit major masturbation material"? I don't like the same books that you do and I'm vocal about it, that's no reason to get hostile. jivjov posted:I really wouldn't put too much stock into anything BravestOfTheLamps says regarding criticism of fiction...their posts about Star Wars over in CineD are on the same level of "I've taken a semester or two's worth of community college analysis courses, and now I am an expert and anyone who dares disagree is a moron" Please don't bring your weird grudges into other threads. And did you ever find any good writing in Kingkiller? BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Apr 11, 2016 |
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Apr 11, 2016 17:21
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:
It's hard not to bring the same "grudge" when you post in the same haughty and dismissive manner. And yes, The Name of the Wind and Wise Man's Fear are both well written novels.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:28
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jivjov posted:I really wouldn't put too much stock into anything BravestOfTheLamps says regarding criticism of fiction...their posts about Star Wars over in CineD are on the same level of "I've taken a semester or two's worth of community college analysis courses, and now I am an expert and anyone who dares disagree is a moron" He's made some good points. I don't fundamentally disagree with everything he's said - not even most of what he's said. BravestOfTheLamps posted:How so? I've constantly mentioned good fantasy throughout this thread. How does "books that are not epic fantasy" qualify as "lit major masturbation material"? I don't like the same books that you do and I'm vocal about it, that's no reason to get hostile. Okay maybe that was a little harsh, but every excerpt you've posted comes off as pretentious lit-major-bait. Kingkiller, the Black Company, and the Malazan Book of the Fallen are all hugely popular bestsellers, and your dismissal of them as "not good" belies an elitism that makes it hard to be convinced by most of what you're posting. Like I mentioned before, the only major critique you've made that I agree with is that Rothfuss could afford to be a little more prosy.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:29
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jivjov posted:The Name of the Wind and Wise Man's Fear are both well written novels. Please show me how. Benson Cunningham posted:For real though, Malazan is great. I don't think it's a touchstone for good writing. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Apr 11, 2016 |
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Apr 11, 2016 17:30
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Please show me how. I experienced enjoyment while reading both books. I found the world and the characters to be compelling to read about.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:33
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What parts are well-written? This isn't hard. Bring up excerpts of good writing. Show how the books have a meaningful story-arc. Tell me what makes the characters and the world compelling.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:37
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I think it's worth pointing out that Lamps is loving with the thread by being deliberately obtuse. But jivjov, don't bring anecdotes to a lit fight. Show your work by quoting specific passages and then breaking down why you think those passages are good, even if it's something really basic like appreciating the grammar.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:39
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:What parts are well-written? This isn't hard. Bring up excerpts of good writing. Show how the books have a meaningful story-arc. Tell me what makes the characters and the world compelling. The whole story is compelling to me. Kvothe's search for the Chandrian is compelling to me. His eduction (both at the university and abroad) is compelling to me. I have no need to justify myself and what I find entertaining to you.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:39
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jivjov posted:I have no need to justify myself and what I find entertaining to you. Then justify it to someone else. That way we get discussion. If you're not actually in the Rothfuss thread for discussion, I have to assume that it's some egotistic purpose instead.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:41
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HIJK posted:But jivjov, don't bring anecdotes to a lit fight. Show your work by quoting specific passages and then breaking down why you think those passages are good, even if it's something really basic like appreciating the grammar. I don't currently have my copies of the book in front of me; but I'll be as specific as I can. I will always have a fond appreciation of characters who take the "rules" of a magic system and bend them into exciting results. So Kvothe calling down lightning or making the arrow catch in book 2, or the incident in Trebon in book 1 are fundamentally appealing to me. Subversion of tropes also appeals to me. So skipping over the journey to Severen, or Kvothe utterly failing to learn Fae history and language is great.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:44
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Okay. What does that have to do with the novels being allegedly well-written? Don't worry about not being able to quote the books - I have plenty of quotations from the first book right in this thread! Just point to the good ones.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:49
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ChickenWing posted:I too find fault with characters talking in semi-modern tones in a make belief fantasy universe where there is a university where magic science is studied. Isn't Malazon the series that's entirely based off of the D&D campaigns the author took part in? I tried to get in to those books and they were all over the place and sword-armed space raptors don't save it.
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Apr 11, 2016 17:59
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jivjov posted:I have no need to justify myself and what I find entertaining to you. While this is perfectly true, you don't get to do this when any time you perceive the merit of the work is somehow "in danger", you leap to its defense. If you want to stop being called upon to justify what you find entertaining, stop putting yourself in positions where you are, effectively, daring people to ask you to justify it. Enjoying something doesn't make it meritorious.
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Apr 11, 2016 18:00
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Evil Fluffy posted:Isn't Malazon the series that's entirely based off of the D&D campaigns the author took part in? I tried to get in to those books and they were all over the place and sword-armed space raptors don't save it. GURPS, but yeah. There's a huge cast, but the author does a really frigging great job of getting you to like the most important characters, and an even better job of tying together all the loose threads as the series progresses.
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Apr 11, 2016 18:00
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ChickenWing posted:GURPS, but yeah. There's a huge cast, but the author does a really frigging great job of getting you to like the most important characters, and an even better job of tying together all the loose threads as the series progresses. The first book is definitely pretty rough though.
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Apr 11, 2016 18:02
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If jivjov likes magic and world building he must be in love with Sanderson considering pretty much every setting in the Cosmere has a more interesting magic system than Naming and that True Names are in no way new to fantasy. Naming in Kingkiller is about as by-the-books as you can get with it.jivjov posted:I don't currently have my copies of the book in front of me; but I'll be as specific as I can. There's nothing about a subversion of tropes in having a trope happen but not writing about it so you can focus on writing a few hundred more pages of Harry Potter fanfic and other monotonous nonsense. "Ah ha, you thought I'd write about an actual adventure Kvothe had but nope, gently caress you have some more boring poo poo instead" is not subverting a trope. Writing about what happened and having it turn out Kvothe was the one pirating? Sure.
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Apr 11, 2016 18:09
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Evil Fluffy posted:If jivjov likes magic and world building he must be in love with Sanderson considering pretty much every setting in the Cosmere has a more interesting magic system than Naming and that True Names are in no way new to fantasy. Naming in Kingkiller is about as by-the-books as you can get with it. The world building in these books is also really bad. Like, how is the world in any way interesting? Also if you want a good subversion of fantasy tropes, go read Abercrombie. Andrast fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Apr 11, 2016 |
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Apr 11, 2016 18:12
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Evil Fluffy posted:If jivjov likes magic and world building he must be in love with Sanderson considering pretty much every setting in the Cosmere has a more interesting magic system than Naming and that True Names are in no way new to fantasy. Naming in Kingkiller is about as by-the-books as you can get with it. I do need to read some Sanderson. Recommendations on a starting point?
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Apr 11, 2016 18:12
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Andrast posted:The first book is definitely pretty rough though. Agreed, but it's still passable and the story is good enough to keep interest up to the second book, which is probably the best written one in the series.
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Apr 11, 2016 18:18
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Hey, jivjov. Serious question here, from someone else who is a fan of Name of the Wind. I know it's not like you could like the book more than you do, but do you really not think there are ways to improve the book? I'm not even talking from a point of writing style or prose or anything. Like maybe shorten the Tarbean section by a bit, or not going so in-depth with the in-universe folklore. Or maybe even spend a bit less time worry about exact amounts of change the Kvothe needs to get by. That's my opinion of things. As much as I enjoy the book, I feel that it's probably about a third longer than it needs to be, maybe more. It's a 600+ page book that probably could've been told in less than 400. I'd like to hear from you because you jump to its defense constantly, but never go any further than "It's a book I liked, therefore it is good".
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Apr 11, 2016 18:41
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SpacePig posted:Hey, jivjov. Serious question here, from someone else who is a fan of Name of the Wind. I know it's not like you could like the book more than you do, but do you really not think there are ways to improve the book? I'm not even talking from a point of writing style or prose or anything. Like maybe shorten the Tarbean section by a bit, or not going so in-depth with the in-universe folklore. Or maybe even spend a bit less time worry about exact amounts of change the Kvothe needs to get by. There's certainly some room for tightening up, especially in Book 2. I like each "segment" of the story there, but the stuff in Severen and Ademere in particular could be trimmed down a bit. Off the top of my head, Kvothe could have gotten his Ademic name and his sword from the old woman at the same time without losing much, and back in Severen, every interaction with Bredon other than the first and last are not particularly important to the ongoing thread. The stories within stories I'm of two minds about...hearing Skarpi and Trapis and Hespe tell folklore-style stories that end up being distorted forms of actual history is fascinating, but I could see them being excised or trimmed without impacting Kvothe's story too much. It's really going to depend a lot on just how relevant that stuff ends up being come Doors of Stone for me to fairly judge though...if bits and pieces of all those myths ends up being integral to confronting the Chandrian or something, then they kinda need to be there (sorta like how J.K. Rowling wouldn't let the Harry Potter film makers cut Kreacher out because he became more important later on).
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Apr 11, 2016 18:50
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I would be happy if the Chandrian had anything to do with this story at all. Both them and Denna (the two things that we're supposed to think are the most important things driving him) have received little direct attention in the large scale of things. Which is telling because despite not getting a ton of book time I find Denna incredibly boring as a character and possibly the most boring aspect of the series so far.
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Apr 11, 2016 18:57
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jivjov posted:I do need to read some Sanderson. Recommendations on a starting point? You don't need to read Sanderson. He's very average. That said, he produces a poo poo ton of material. If you like magic systems and what happens you exploit them, it will probably be a fine read.
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Apr 11, 2016 18:58
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Someone, anyone, please acknowledge that Rothfuss wrote a "world's smallest violin" gag into The Name of the Wind. I still can't believe that it's real.
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Apr 11, 2016 19:12
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Someone please acknowledge that Rothfuss wrote a "world's smallest violin" gag into The Name of the Wind. I still can't believe that it's real. There was an imaginary violin. But it seemed that Manet was miming it at regular size. An appropriate joke for a series that features music heavily.
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Apr 11, 2016 19:14
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e: What's wrong with the "world's smallest violin" thing? Is there something I'm missing?jivjov posted:There's certainly some room for tightening up, especially in Book 2. I like each "segment" of the story there, but the stuff in Severen and Ademere in particular could be trimmed down a bit. Off the top of my head, Kvothe could have gotten his Ademic name and his sword from the old woman at the same time without losing much, and back in Severen, every interaction with Bredon other than the first and last are not particularly important to the ongoing thread. See, that's sort of my biggest problem. It's not a character that has a later importance, like I'm sure Auri will be. It's stories about heroes that are ostensibly being told so that Kvothe (and the reader, I guess?) can know the implications of legends, and what they mean to people. Like, Kvothe is already learning that different societies tell the stories differently, and will probably eventually learn that the stories he was told were fabrications and half-truths, just like his own legends are in the present timeline. We don't need to hear every interpretation in full for that lesson to be impactful. Solice Kirsk posted:I would be happy if the Chandrian had anything to do with this story at all. Both them and Denna (the two things that we're supposed to think are the most important things driving him) have received little direct attention in the large scale of things. Which is telling because despite not getting a ton of book time I find Denna incredibly boring as a character and possibly the most boring aspect of the series so far. I was torn for a second between saying whether I'd write her out entirely or not, thinking that she was the reason for one of my favorite parts of the book. When Kvothe goes to that wedding that apparently got wiped out and fights the dragon, I thought that was really great. Not only was it a good application of the magic system in a fairly exciting fight, but is also gives another glimpse of Kvothe becoming the legend he is by literally slaying a dragon. But then I realized Denna wasn't the reason he was there, it was the Chandrian implications of the attack on the wedding party. Running into Denna was just a happy accident. I get the feeling Denna will be linked to the Chandrian somehow, like her patron will be one of them or something. Who knows?
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Apr 11, 2016 19:14
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My duel of wits with Ambrose had left me quite drained. I headed for the dining hall, where my friends had already gathered. "Kvothe! Wassup, my nigga," said Lerone, in his native Jivish. "Wassup, Lerone," I replied while clasping his hand. Jivish is full of subtleties, and answering him back exactly would have been an insult. Willem rolled his eyes and made a jerking-off motion.
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Apr 11, 2016 19:24
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:My duel of wits with Ambrose had left me quite drained. I headed for the dining hall, where my friends had already gathered. I would unironically enjoy this obvious of a satire.
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Apr 11, 2016 19:31
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Is there conversation around the violin motion that I'm not remembering? Because a sad violin motion from a book that gives such weight to music doesn't seem that out of place. Hell, even the jerkoff motion wouldn't be entirely out of place in a male shared living space full of children. Violins and jerking off both ostensibly exist in this universe. It seems like a weird thing to pick on.
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Apr 11, 2016 19:49
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I'm with Lamps on that one, it's an incredibly twee anachronism which is very much out of place in a halfway serious depiction of a medieval university. The top google result for it is friggin' Spongebob Squarepants.
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Apr 11, 2016 19:53
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I dunno, I won't really hold it against a book that's written in a fairly modern vernacular for using a modern vernacular. None of the phrasings Bravest is taking objection to is really out of place with the surrounding language used. It being out of place with the premise, sure, I can see that argument, and that's probably worthwhile, but calling out individual phrasings as being anachronistic or too modern English seems ultimately pointless to me, if only because everything is going to be like that. At this point, it's going 'look at how curly these five hairs are' when you're pointing at pubic hair. e: that said, the violin thing always sticks out, it is a particularly specific idiom.
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Apr 11, 2016 19:59
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neongrey posted:e: that said, the violin thing always sticks out, it is a particularly specific idiom. I guess my objection is, I don't see why it couldn't exist in this universe. String instruments are pretty good at making sad noises.
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Apr 11, 2016 20:02
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Maybe someone will call Kvothe a wagecuck fag in the next book, as cuckoldry, wage labour and homosexuality all exist in-universe too?
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Apr 11, 2016 20:06
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Well and there's an inherent problem with fictional universes; so much of the English language is tied to specific people or events. For example, a Star Wars or other sci fi electrician wouldn't be measuring resistance in Ohms, since that unit is named after a specific person. A lot of idioms can be viewed the same way; tied to modern day earth.
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Apr 11, 2016 20:08
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multijoe posted:Maybe someone will call Kvothe a wagecuck fag in the next book, as cuckoldry, wage labour and homosexuality all exist in-universe too? well yeah but the context of "a violin playing the world's saddest song for you" is probably much more achievable than fantasy 4chan
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Apr 11, 2016 20:08
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neongrey posted:Enjoying something doesn't make it meritorious. This point isn't getting enough attention.
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Apr 11, 2016 20:13
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‘I think I know already what counsel you would give, Boromir,’ said Frodo. ‘And it would seem like wisdom but for the warning of my heart.’ ‘Warning? Warning against what?’ said Boromir sharply. ‘Against delay. Against the way that seems easier. Against refusal of the burden that is laid on me. Against – well, if it must be said, against trust in the strength and truth of Men.’ ‘Yet that strength has long protected you far away in your little country, though you knew it not.’ ‘I do not doubt the valour of your people. But the world is changing. The walls of Minas Tirith may be strong, but they are not strong enough. If they fail, what then?’ ‘We shall fall in battle valiantly. Yet there is still hope that they will not fail.’ ‘No hope while the Ring lasts,’ said Frodo. ‘Ah! The Ring!’ said Boromir, his eyes lighting. ‘The Ring! Is it not a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt for so small a thing? So small a thing! And I have seen it only for an instant in the house of Elrond. Could I not have a sight of it again?’ Frodo looked up. His heart went suddenly cold. He caught the strange gleam in Boromir’s eyes, yet his face was still kind and friendly. 'Bitch, please,’ he answered.
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Apr 11, 2016 20:13
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That's jarring because it is completely out of character for the excerpt, much less the book. The tone of NotW is pretty established as being reasonably modern, and definitely consistent with a lot of other fantasy I've read. There's a threshold at which point things become ridiculous, sure, but I don't believe it's been surpassed here, and certainly not to the absurd extent you seem to think.
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