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I know, which led to a funny moment in class when we were discussing Clockwork and the professor asked a Russian friend of mine if she had any difficulties reading it. Same happened when I was studying in the UK and did a history of English class. Not only am I Dutch but both my parents are Frisian, which I understand but don't speak fluently, so I had little trouble understanding Old English while my British classmates were really struggling. I guess being bilingual and used to code switching is definitely an advantage when reading something like Feersum Endjinn. Funnily enough I didn't parse the title as intended when I bought the book. I just took it as a fantasy/scifi name until I was a couple of chapters in and it clicked.
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Mar 21, 2016 21:17
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Any time you learn a new language you probably start out reading the words "out loud" in your head, so I'd imagine that experience with that would help in books written in dialect or with strange orthographies. Whether growing up bilingual specifically is useful in that context I don't know - in that case you probably read reasonably fluently in both languages, although I know that if I have to switch between languages it takes me a little while to get properly into it. I didn't have much problem with Feersum Endjinn either though.
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Mar 21, 2016 21:24
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I was cleaning up my bookcases this evening and opened the beat up old hardcover of "The Algebraist" that I picked up for $2 at a car boot sale, to discover it has an undedicated autograph in the front from Banks. Too bad that the dust jacket is pretty beat up and the pages are already showing signs of yellowing.
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Apr 16, 2016 13:38
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Lankiveil posted:I was cleaning up my bookcases this evening and opened the beat up old hardcover of "The Algebraist" that I picked up for $2 at a car boot sale, to discover it has an undedicated autograph in the front from Banks. Too bad that the dust jacket is pretty beat up and the pages are already showing signs of yellowing. That's really cool anyway. I have a lot of fondness for books with a physical history, & that one for sure qualifies. Obviously if it was dedicated & to you personally and whatever but eh, life's too short. You should probably have paid at least like 10 bucks for it tho, if the guy knew :|
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Apr 16, 2016 14:03
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So I've needed a new set of novels into which to delve, and decided to finally start the Culture. I'm beginning with Excession. Few dozen pages in. I dig this poo poo.
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Apr 28, 2016 05:02
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If you started with Excession and haven't been completely turned off, the rest of the series should be no problem.
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Apr 28, 2016 05:04
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I was under the impression it was thought well of by Culture readers; is that not the case? At any rate I'm enjoying it so it doesn't matter. The wry British-humor style gives me fond memories of Douglas Adams, if he had been a better craftsman and thematically more...well, grown-up, I guess.
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Apr 28, 2016 05:12
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Excession is a great start to the books, probably the best one.
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Apr 28, 2016 05:12
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mdemone posted:I was under the impression it was thought well of by Culture readers; is that not the case? It's not bad, it's just weird and probably one of the harder ones to get into without a little prior knowledge of the Culture universe. There's a semi-serious view held by some that Excesion, Inversions and Look to Windward form a sort of loose trilogy, showing the Culture seen, respectively, from above, from below, and from head-on from a roughly equal civilization. Look to Windward is my favorite Banks book fwiw.
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Apr 28, 2016 05:20
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I think I see what you mean, which is largely why I chose Excession as a starting point. I wanted to have a wide perspective on the Minds and the whole setting in general. I'll definitely keep that trilogy idea in mind as I move on from here.
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Apr 28, 2016 05:23
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Excession is the obvious goon favorite because of spaceships posting.  
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Apr 28, 2016 05:38
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Excession is a very good book but I've always thought despite that, it was one of the weaker culture novels. Hopefully you're in for a real treat when you get to the rest of them.
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Apr 28, 2016 05:44
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I hold Excession, Look to Windward and Player of Games roughly in equal esteem though they are very different books. The only problems I see starting with Excession are that you'll lose on a lot of subtle things because you are unfamiliar with the setting and that, not having read other novels before, you might not fully appreciate the perspective of Minds as much.
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Apr 28, 2016 05:49
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Base Emitter posted:Excession is the obvious goon favorite because of spaceships posting.  Player of Games is the best Culture book IMO. It doesn't suffer from the wandering plotlines that the later books fall prey to.
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Apr 28, 2016 06:12
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Player of Games or Use of Weapons are my general recommended on-ramps.
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Apr 28, 2016 06:15
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I tend to recommend release order, but walk into Consider Phlebas understanding you are most definitely not being given the full picture, and uncovering it through later books is half the fun. I feel like directing people to the later titles risks spoiling that discovery.
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Apr 28, 2016 08:05
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The problem with that is Horza is dumb and wrong. The Culture has issues but none of them are the ones that Horza identifies. It's significantly better to come in after you understand how the Culture does what they do (and how that doesn't always work) than to have your introduction be Horza who doesn't even manage to be wrong most of the time.
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Apr 28, 2016 08:42
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Peztopiary posted:The problem with that is Horza is dumb and wrong. The Culture has issues but none of them are the ones that Horza identifies. It's significantly better to come in after you understand how the Culture does what they do (and how that doesn't always work) than to have your introduction be Horza who doesn't even manage to be wrong most of the time. I think we're agreeing, just we have different views on whether that's a problem. I don't mind being waylaid by an untrustworthy narrator.
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Apr 28, 2016 09:05
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I don't like recommending Phlebas first because, while awesome, it is also ugly and quite mean.
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Apr 28, 2016 14:09
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I'm far from sure that I'd describe Excession as the best Culture book, but it's definitely my favourite. That ITG takeover of the Taussig Incident scratches a very deep-rooted itch.
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Apr 28, 2016 14:17
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I actually didn't like Excession as much as the others in the series, mainly because I just could not stand Genar-Hofoen as a character.Peztopiary posted:The problem with that is Horza is dumb and wrong. The Culture has issues but none of them are the ones that Horza identifies. It's significantly better to come in after you understand how the Culture does what they do (and how that doesn't always work) than to have your introduction be Horza who doesn't even manage to be wrong most of the time. Phlebas in general is hard, because it's not the best book to be introduced with, but if you have already read some of the other books, you're going to spend a large amount of time thinking exactly what you express here. Also, man that middle section DRAAAAAGGGSSS. I do appreciate how Banks would change up the point of view for each book, so that you get a really complete picture of what The Culture looks like as a whole. Max fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Apr 28, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 14:44
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I started with Use of Weapons and got hooked fwiw.
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Apr 28, 2016 14:55
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Horza did nothing wrong.
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Apr 28, 2016 14:56
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Look to Windward is the best Culture book. Fact. imo
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Apr 28, 2016 19:11
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Peztopiary posted:The problem with that is Horza is dumb and wrong. The Culture has issues but none of them are the ones that Horza identifies. It's significantly better to come in after you understand how the Culture does what they do (and how that doesn't always work) than to have your introduction be Horza who doesn't even manage to be wrong most of the time. You still have to respect Horza a little, because he's one of the only people who is anti-Culture from an informed position without being a massive hypocrite. All the others I can think of - like the Contact ambassador to the Affront, or early-book Gurgeh from Player of Games - say they've fallen in love with a harsh, 'genuine' society but only really party with the local aristocrats. They don't love being in an imperfect society; they just enjoy knowing that other people are suffering while they aren't. At least Horza bleeds and suffers for his dumb cause.
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Apr 28, 2016 22:46
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Strategic Tea posted:You still have to respect Horza a little, Yeah, but so does his fuzzy girlfriend and unborn child. And so I don't. 
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Apr 28, 2016 23:11
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Strategic Tea posted:You still have to respect Horza a little, Empathize with stupidity and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot.
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Apr 28, 2016 23:45
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Strategic Tea posted:At least Horza bleeds and suffers for his dumb cause. A dumb cause is not ennobled by the suffering of it's adherents. Also, generally Horza leaves the suffering to others. He's just as self-satisfied as any Culture citizen, he just murders a bunch more people.
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Apr 29, 2016 01:47
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I mostly enjoyed the melancholic feel of Look to Windward but I found the whole ending with the e-dust assassin thing just lame. It felt really out of character for the Culture and the tech itself felt like I was supposed to be impressed by nanites in a setting with Minds. As if Banks added a placeholder for INSERT ATROCITY HERE and forgot to come back to it.
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Apr 29, 2016 08:46
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It was basically a really heavy-handed "The Minds are actually effectively just people with no limits" reminder in case people weren't paying attention.
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Apr 29, 2016 09:58
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An act of revenge for an act of revenge for a botched intervention against an awful social structure. And employing a terror weapon, too! And the ascended Chelgrians are somewhere in this whole chain of violence. Look to Windward really wants you to know that the "gods" of the setting aren't much better than us.
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Apr 29, 2016 14:36
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Peztopiary posted:A dumb cause is not ennobled by the suffering of it's adherents. Also, generally Horza leaves the suffering to others. He's just as self-satisfied as any Culture citizen, he just murders a bunch more people. I agree the cause isn't any nobler, but I still think Horza is a better person for not just being hot air. I mean we open with him being drowned in a sewer, and then we have cannibal island  . I think Banks wanted to make sure that he wasn't just another post-scarcity twit enjoying his diplomatic immunity.
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Apr 29, 2016 22:54
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Horza is an idealist who believes so much in his cause that any means justify the cause. The cause being of course the destruction or at least alteration of the Culture. So he's aligned with their enemy even though they're at the very least equally bad, just in other, different ways. He's a single issue voter who doesn't care if his world burns, as long as he gets to have his say if only for a moment.
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Apr 29, 2016 23:29
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 and that cause is basically making people suffer so that life feels like it has some edge to it.He's a slightly better person, which still translates to total rear end in a top hat if you take him out of the protagonist spotlight.
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Apr 29, 2016 23:59
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General Battuta posted:An act of revenge for an act of revenge for a botched intervention against an awful social structure. And employing a terror weapon, too! And the ascended Chelgrians are somewhere in this whole chain of violence. Look to Windward really wants you to know that the "gods" of the setting aren't much better than us. On the other hand, Surface Detail presents them as more or less divine beings who've helped build a heaven on Earth. The Minds are pretty complex and a lot of things to a lot of people
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Apr 30, 2016 00:02
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multijoe posted:On the other hand, Surface Detail presents them as more or less divine beings who've helped build a heaven on Earth. The Minds are pretty complex and a lot of things to a lot of people Who's "them"? The chelgrian ascendancy or whatever they're called built a heaven, but it's not open for everybody. It's a gated community. I don't remember Culture minds being involved in the afterlife construction business. They mess around with them, but built them?
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Apr 30, 2016 00:06
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Snapchat A Titty posted:Horza is an idealist who believes so much in his cause that any means justify the cause. The cause being of course the destruction or at least alteration of the Culture. So he's aligned with their enemy even though they're at the very least equally bad, just in other, different ways. He's a single issue voter who doesn't care if his world burns, as long as he gets to have his say if only for a moment. That's fine and I think that reading works if you don't know that the Culture end up being the "good guys" of the rest of the books. If you've read of few already, and then go into Phlebas, you just see him as kinda . . . I don't know a good word but he wasn't as engaging.
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Apr 30, 2016 00:13
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General Battuta posted:An act of revenge for an act of revenge for a botched intervention against an awful social structure. And employing a terror weapon, too! And the ascended Chelgrians are somewhere in this whole chain of violence. Look to Windward really wants you to know that the "gods" of the setting aren't much better than us. I always figured the "botched intervention" was utter bollocks. It seemed far more plausible that SC just took the blame in order to stop the Chelgrians exterminating themselves.
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Apr 30, 2016 00:20
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Snapchat A Titty posted:Who's "them"? The chelgrian ascendancy or whatever they're called built a heaven, but it's not open for everybody. It's a gated community. I don't remember Culture minds being involved in the afterlife construction business. They mess around with them, but built them? Ah, I thought he was referring to The Minds, not the Chelgrians. And I by heaven on Earth meant they've helped The Culture build a worldly paradise and have a near supernatural role in performing 'miracles' through their technology, like the Me I'm Counting resurrecting Lededje and Falling Outside the Normal Moral Constraints smiting Vespers and the GCFC, not that they'd been building literal heavens.
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Apr 30, 2016 00:22
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Snapchat A Titty posted:Who's "them"? The chelgrian ascendancy or whatever they're called built a heaven, but it's not open for everybody. It's a gated community. I don't remember Culture minds being involved in the afterlife construction business. They mess around with them, but built them? The impression I got was that the whole concept doesn't exactly make sense in the Culture. They have the sort of virtual environments that would constitute another society's heaven, but as far as I can tell they have no interest in restricting people from passing in and out of them, so it ends up being more of a change of address or body mod than an afterlife.
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Apr 30, 2016 00:27
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