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Trast posted:Why are comics fans so obsessed with changing the sexuality of fictional characters, especially when there is no basis for it? Can't they be happy with superheros punching nazi-dionsaurs on the moon?
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Jun 29, 2016 21:12
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JoshTheStampede posted:Just like Cap suddenly being gay when he hasn't been forever would be dumb. They could explain it in several ways, and that would be fine. Or they could say movie Cap is gay/bi because there's nothing really to contradict that. It would just stretch belief a little to have Steve Rogers say "well I've been bi this whole time but it never came up". Just like it would have been implausible for him to be Hydra the whole time without some history/memory alteration, which is why they revealed that right away instead of letting it hang for a year or whatever. Batman made the change from campy silver age fun times to gothic vigilante before there was even any hint of a universe reboot, and that's a lot more dissonant than Cap being into dudes. Marvel may consider it's entire past in canon unlike DC, but only in very broad strokes, and acting like it's all been one cohesive narrative is silly, because it demonstrably isn't.
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Jun 29, 2016 21:26
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I'm fine if Cap comes out as gay, and in fact think it'd be the source of some very good stories. I'm fine if Cap starts dating dudes, or Kobik somehow fixes him into realizing he was gay all along (which actually has precedent with Prodigy, for instance). I'm not fine if Cap starts dating Bucky. I'm not fine with a twitter hashtag transparently and disingenuously pretending to be about greater representation in media actually being about Captain America loving Bucky, and I'm further less fine with that lie being perpetuated by suffocatingly smug thinkpieces that pretend a specific argument is valid when it fundamentally isn't. This is pretty much the long and short of it.
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Jun 29, 2016 21:27
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I don't ship BuckyxCap and I think that article was pretty dumb too, but that's not what I'm arguing about.
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Jun 29, 2016 21:28
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Toxxupation posted:I'm further less fine with that lie being perpetuated by suffocatingly smug thinkpieces that pretend a specific argument is valid when it fundamentally isn't. If you think an argument is invalid you have to actually explain why it isn't, not just go "it fundamentally isn't because I don't like the person writing it." Comics need to change. It's a long struggle and I don't particularly think this particular battle is one that needs to be fought, but not because it conflicts with canon or whatever. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Jun 29, 2016 |
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Jun 29, 2016 21:33
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#GiveCapaBoyfriend is a disingenuous hashtag used by twitter and tumblr idiots to disguise how desperately they want their Bucky and Steve Rogers fuckfics to be canon, applies almost entirely to the movies, and is a group of assholes leveraging faux progressivism to push their weird creepy fetishes forward. Any writer who pretends it applies to a medium it doesn't and is a fundamentally valid opinion over a group of weirdos essentially concern trolling to justify their boners did not do their research. Period. There is absolutely nothing I despise more than faux progressivism to justify selfishness/fetishes which is exactly what this #GiveCapaBoyfriend horseshit is all about.
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Jun 29, 2016 21:37
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Toxxupation posted:#GiveCapaBoyfriend is a disingenuous hashtag used by twitter and tumblr idiots to disguise how desperately they want their Bucky and Steve Rogers fuckfics to be canon, applies almost entirely to the movies, and is a group of assholes leveraging faux progressivism to push their weird creepy fetishes forward. Any writer who pretends it applies to a medium it doesn't and is a fundamentally valid opinion over a group of weirdos essentially concern trolling to justify their boners did not do their research. So what you're saying is that because creepy people used the hashtag literally every single person who uses it is a creep who is only interested in fetishes and should be ignored. Boy, I'm sure glad this wouldn't be applied horribly to other parts of comics.
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Jun 29, 2016 21:41
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Another day another Marvel teaser with two wildly different characters. This time Solo and Jessica Jones. A lot of Deadpool's Merc squad are in these for some reason. I guess they're trying to give that book a push.
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Jun 29, 2016 21:43
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Lol you read a tox post.
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Jun 29, 2016 21:44
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ImpAtom posted:So what you're saying is that because creepy people used the hashtag literally every single person who uses it is a creep who is only interested in fetishes and should be ignored. Like most dumb rear end in a top hat hashtags, it started as a group of creepy assholes trying to justify their boners and hooked in otherwise compassionate people who are genuinely interested in greater gay representation in movies (not even comics, which it should be stringently noted) and then reinforced by bad thinkpieces misunderstanding that the fundamental argument was presented in bad faith and is itself dishonest. Giving credence to the hashtag over addressing the central conflict - increased gay representation in media in general - powers the weirdos and validates their grossness.
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Jun 29, 2016 21:46
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Yeah, that's something that drives me up the wall about fan communities in general: dudes attempting to use their porn as proof of how progressive they are. If that worked, we'd have gotten legal lesbian marriage ten minutes after the VCR became affordable. I don't think this is a comics argument, though, or if it is, it's barely tangential. It's an MCU argument, because like I said before, Winter Soldier gives a lot of textual evidence for a same-gender attraction between Steve and Sam. It's a wholly valid reading of the film. I don't think you can make as solid an argument for Steve and Bucky, especially in the modern period where Bucky's spent so much time out of his mind. In the comics, I don't think it's an accident that there are so comparatively many gay characters in the current teenage generation, but you're kind of stuck there because of change resistance. If Marvel, or anybody, really wanted to up their representation game, the best call at this point would be a weekly 0.99 digital comic with a solid creative team, starring a new character or a couple of the newer ones. I bet you could move some units if you had, say, Kate Leth writing a book that tracked the superhero lesbian adventures of Karolina Deane and Julie Power, or Steve Orlando writing a book about Northstar.
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Jun 29, 2016 21:47
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Toxxupation posted:Like most dumb rear end in a top hat hashtags, it started as a group of creepy assholes trying to justify their boners and hooked in otherwise compassionate people who are genuinely interested in greater gay representation in media (not even comics, which it should be stringently noted) and then reinforced by bad thinkpieces misunderstanding that the fundamental argument was presented in bad faith and is itself dishonest. Giving credence to the hashtag over addressing the central conflict - increased gay representation in media in general - powers the weirdos and validates their grossness. Can you actually back this up? Because from what I actually saw it was the opposite. The hashtag was started by someone who A) ships Bucky/Cap naturally and B) Thought it would be a good step forward for progressiveness. They didn't intend for it to blow up into a huge thing but it was adopted both by people who wanted to justify their boners AND people who genuinely are interested in greater representation. Not this weird fantasy you had about a group of people who got together to pester marvel about their boners or whatever. There are unarguably people who use progressiveness as a front for their fetishes but claiming it 'started as a group of creepy assholes trying to justify their boners' is pretty fuckin' dishonest when you can actually trace where the tweets started. (Also it started with a goddamn 18 year old high school student posting to her friends so it feels creepy to attack her so viciously.) Some of it is, yes, literal kids not being the greatest at understanding more complex issues and wanting to be forward-thinking while also having it apply to something they like. It's selfish to some degree but selfish in a way that is worth discussing rather than assuming the worst and most malicious of them. And yes, there are creeps, as there are creeps with any group. If there's a good argument against i then it's fine to make it but even if you make the best argument ever it isn't going to convince everyone and that doesn't mean it is inherently malicious if they don't agree with you. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Jun 29, 2016 |
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Jun 29, 2016 21:52
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ImpAtom posted:Can you actually back this up? Because from what I actually saw it was the opposite. The hashtag was started by someone who A) ships Bucky/Cap naturally and B) Thought it would be a good step forward for progressiveness. They didn't intend for it to blow up into a huge thing but it was adopted both by people who wanted to justify their boners AND people who genuinely are interested in greater representation. Not this weird fantasy you had about a group of people who got together to pester marvel about their boners or whatever. I'm talking specifically about when tumblr got ahold of it and, as they often do with virtually all progressive stuff (that they can also use to justify boners), co-opted it to be about "greater representation in movies. But also comics? I dunno. Just draw Steve and Bucky loving asap." I had no idea and even less interest in who specifically started the hashtag, I got aware of it when suddenly all the twitter people I follow started linking me to tumblr weirdos who have some real problematic looking fanart and fanfiction suddenly really interested in "greater representation in media".
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Jun 29, 2016 22:03
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Toxxupation posted:I'm talking specifically about when tumblr got ahold of it and, as they often do with virtually all progressive stuff (that they can also use to justify boners), co-opted it to be about "greater representation in movies. But also comics? I dunno. Just draw Steve and Bucky loving asap." As someone who gets annoyed having to claw my way through yaoi and poo poo to get to good content, I think you're exaggerating.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:04
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The reason I think it was disingenuous is because for the vast majority it seemed as if it wasn't about making Cap gay. If that was it, that's fine. I have no problem with that. But it was more specifically to make Cap/Bucky a thing which does present some problems in the comics. I have a hard time believing that if Cap were made gay and he was paired with some new character nobody had ever heard of that it would satisfy the vast majority of the people. Because the root of it was based on wanting the characters as presented in the movie to be together without much, or maybe even any, knowledge of the comics and the problems it could present if done there.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:07
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Toxxupation posted:I'm talking specifically about when tumblr got ahold of it and, as they often do with virtually all progressive stuff (that they can also use to justify boners), co-opted it to be about "greater representation in movies. But also comics? I dunno. Just draw Steve and Bucky loving asap." "Someone on Tumblr did a creepy thing about a thing" is a completely meaningless comment. Tumblr exists. Someone on Tumblr is probably fanfiction-shipping literally anything under the sun. It doesn't have anything to do with anything except trying to tar by association. If something is lovely then it's lovely. It's not lovely because 4chan/tumblr/reddit/whoever. All that does (and it strikes both ways, again) is allow someone to write off an actual conversation with 'the bad people.' "It's for TUMBLR!" is applied as easily to Ms. Marvel or Batgirl or basically any attempt at progressiveness, forced or otherwise (and has been repeatedly by lovely people). I also have to say that I don't particularly find the argument of "they want to see this is comics" as inherently flawed as you do, but I've been reading comics for a long time and have seen way too many writers, artists and editors basically force things to happen because it fits their particular fan definition of the character. I don't like the idea of progressiveness to satisfy a fetish but that isn't the only reason for sudden shocking changes. People have different interpretations of characters and, especially growing up, you might come to read a character very differently than I do or vice-versa., If someone legitimately, honestly, wholeheartedly thinks that the Cap/Bucky relationship reads as gay then that's entirely their interpretation and it doesn't necessarily have to be fetish-based. You can argue it doesn't make sense in canon or that it's a flawed power dynamic and that's perfectly fair, but that's also something you can apply to plenty of canonical straight relationships too and isn't necessarily going to change someone's mind.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:14
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And again. The emotional sparks seen onscreen from cap to Bucky was based on their sibling like relationship. They grew up with each other, they fought in WW2 with each other, Cap believes he failed in protecting Bucky like Bucky protected him, cap believed Bucky was dead, and now Bucky is alive and trying to kill him. Of course there would be hundreds of emotionally stunted people misinterpreting the emotions.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:17
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The actual way they made the change was ridiculous and dumb, but I don't think anyone cares about the main Nick Fury being black now except for Actual Racists, and is probably a good argument against there needing to be a reason for why Cap could now "suddenly" be gay or whatever.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:18
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Mr Hootington posted:And again. The emotional sparks seen onscreen from cap to Bucky was based on their sibling like relationship. They grew up with each other, they fought in WW2 with each other, Cap believes he failed in protecting Bucky like Bucky protected him, cap believed Bucky was dead, and now Bucky is alive and trying to kill him. The flaw in that argument is that "these two characters grew up together, they fought together, one of them failed to protect the other, ect, ect" isn't an inherently sibling relationship. It's a close personal relationship but if it was done between a man and a woman you wouldn't question the idea of a childhood friend romance-turned-tragedy. It's actually a super-common plotline. Again, and I really want to stress this point, I agree with you. I agree that it's a friendship and I dislike the argument that any close relationship is inherently romantic. However the difference between a romantic relationship and a close friendship, especially in fictional media, is a very thin line indeed and it's very easy to read one as the other because close affection and genuine romantic attraction can read very similarly. I think it's a bit crap to go "they're emotionally stunted because they don't get that' when, again, if it was Betsy Barnes and Steve Rogers, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion about how they're siblings because "two people are childhood friends who grow up into lovers" is a staple of romance films across the world.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:21
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Steve: "Bucky this look of pain and relief that I am showing to express my emotions to the viewer should be interpreted as wanting to bone down." Bucky: stares silently then suddenly stabs Steve Steve: "Bucky?!? Not that type of penetration." Falls off triskelion.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:21
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All this talking has made me decide that if Cap gets deprogramed by a passionate kiss from Sam I'm perfectly fine with the this is totally real and in no way mind control double swear company line.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:22
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WickedHate posted:The actual way they made the change was ridiculous and dumb, but I don't think anyone cares about the main Nick Fury being black now except for Actual Racists, and is probably a good argument against there needing to be a reason for why Cap could now "suddenly" be gay or whatever. Well, those are two different people though. Different argument.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:22
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X-O posted:Well, those are two different people though. Different argument. Only on very thin, transparent paper.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:23
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Whomever discribed ANAD Avengers as being very old school Avengering, its really on point in this and the last issue. You got Thor being all "jhave at thee foul villain!" and the whole team working together, and Spider-man cracking jokes. MRA/GG/Redpill shitheads will be making an issue out the next SG issue no doubt, they can't take a joke.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:26
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Trast posted:I just read Civil War and Sue brings up meeting Reed at 12 so if it has been retconned it has been done recently. If I recall as the scene is written it's Sue having a school girl crush (character's words) and Reed being completely oblivious because he is an autistic brainiac college freshman and not creeping on a 12 year old. It was in one of the last two FF runs (so either Fraction or Robinson, I forget). They actually referenced it in a letters page where someone wrote in mad about the retcon and they responded by just saying "Yeah we know a lot of people liked John Byrne's stuff back in the day but we find it creepy and it's 2015 now". ImpAtom posted:Can you actually back this up? Because from what I actually saw it was the opposite. The hashtag was started by someone who A) ships Bucky/Cap naturally and B) Thought it would be a good step forward for progressiveness. They didn't intend for it to blow up into a huge thing but it was adopted both by people who wanted to justify their boners AND people who genuinely are interested in greater representation. Not this weird fantasy you had about a group of people who got together to pester marvel about their boners or whatever. I know I can't "back it up" but it certainly seems to me that any fanart/thinkpieces/etc revolving around that hashtag and/or a gay Capt. America almost always revolve around him hooking up with Bucky. I'm sure there's tons of Cap/Falcon slashfic out there but they're never brought to the forefront in debates like this. That, and the hashtag springing up right after a movie all about Captain America and Bucky premieres, leads me to believe that all too many people supporting the #GiveCapABoyfriend movement are just too embarrassed to tweet at Chris Evans and Sebastian Stan directly and ask them to make out. But like you (and other folks) have said, there are people genuinely interested in representation out there, I guess it's hard not to be cynical sometimes. TwoPair fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jun 29, 2016 |
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Jun 29, 2016 22:26
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ImpAtom posted:The flaw in that argument is that "these two characters grew up together, they fought together, one of them failed to protect the other, ect, ect" isn't an inherently sibling relationship. It's a close personal relationship but if it was done between a man and a woman you wouldn't question the idea of a childhood friend romance-turned-tragedy. It's actually a super-common plotline. This I agree with completely. And especially the last part where we already have that example from Steve and Natasha in Winter Soldier. I took it as a wholly non romantic friendship between them and others seemed to see more than I did. WickedHate posted:Only on very thin, transparent paper. No, not really. Considering they are literally two different people.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:26
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He is right the gay thing is different as you are seeing an attempt to co op the gay panic arguments of the 80s. Which is weird. While the nick fury was just straight up not my fury.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:28
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"This is Nick Fury Jr., but we're just gonna call him Nick Fury from now on" is just the dumb explanation for why Nick Fury is now black. If you skipped those issues, someone could say Hyperion-Prime punched reality and caused him to have always been black, and you wouldn't blink an eye.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:30
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Do we know if it's still Nick Fury Jr or did molecule man fix that?
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Jun 29, 2016 22:32
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Nobody is debating that Nick Fury Jr is dumb. But it's a wholly different situation than what we're actually talking about.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:32
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SirDan3k posted:Do we know if it's still Nick Fury Jr or did molecule man fix that? The fact that that's even a question should prove my point.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:32
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X-O posted:Another day another Marvel teaser with two wildly different characters. This time Solo and Jessica Jones. A lot of Deadpool's Merc squad are in these for some reason. I guess they're trying to give that book a push. Solo lives. And we all know what that means!
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Jun 29, 2016 22:37
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It would make more sense if Bruce Banner was gay.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:46
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Bruce's name is David in the old television show because the people making it thought Bruce was a gay name, in fact.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:47
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Wheat Loaf posted:Solo lives. One day the Solo and Terror Inc. mini of my dreams will be reality
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Jun 29, 2016 22:52
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"The wrong kind of people want this therefore it's bad" is a pretty bad argument against making any creative decision. "This is being done in bad faith" is also a bad argument because it's based off ephemeral perception and personal bias instead of reasoning. I can understand people not wanting Stucky, I don't really enjoy Stucky either but the "but it's fanfiction and that's terrible" is a stupid argument. This is comics. Comics are now run by fans and written by fans who have their fanfiction officially sanctioned. I give it it 5 more years before someone pitches their slash idea to someone on editorial and they publish it. And anyone who wants to complain about it had also better be ready to justify other fanfiction decisions made by fan-employees, like anything involving Kitty Pryde, ever. "This will legitimize the slash fangirls!" Well Jesus, so what? It's not like that would be the stupidest decision Marvel's ever made.
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Jun 29, 2016 22:53
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I just wanna comment here because some people are weirdly confused with why 'established characters with no reference of being gay are BEING TURNED GAY' is... a thing. And it's a pretty simple reason why it happens - comics cannot move past characters that have existed for 40 years. These characters were made during a time when even the hint of homosexuality was a bad thing that could never, ever happen. These are the characters that are still used to this day. And we always, always move back to these characters. Yes, you can introduce new characters who are LGBT inclusive - and Marvel has done that. But I mean, look at the conversations people had just earlier this week, where they're just waiting for all the new more diverse heroes to give up their names for the less new characters. And look at all the other LGBT heroes who basically disappeared. Where has Karolina been? Has Nico's bisexuality been talked about at all since Runaways ended, in any of the things she showed up in? New characters rarely ever last past one, maybe two series. So sometimes people look at this conundrum where new characters never last, and old characters last forever and say 'well, why can't X old character be inclusive or diverse, so we can keep these old rear end characters, but not look like every hero is straight white.'
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Jun 29, 2016 23:04
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TwoPair posted:It was in one of the last two FF runs (so either Fraction or Robinson, I forget). They actually referenced it in a letters page where someone wrote in mad about the retcon and they responded by just saying "Yeah we know a lot of people liked John Byrne's stuff back in the day but we find it creepy and it's 2015 now". That makes sense. The Civil War stuff is just fresh in my brain from binging on it through Unlimited. I hadn't known about the twelve year old thing and I was like "ewww, why even do that?" HIJK posted:"This will legitimize the slash fangirls!" Well Jesus, so what? It's not like that would be the stupidest decision Marvel's ever made. Yes it would. That kind of thinking spawned Twilight and we all saw how that ended.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:13
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Trast posted:Yes it would. That kind of thinking spawned Twilight and we all saw how that ended. Unfortunately Twilight was pretty much original. No editorial board to convince that "hey maybe making some of these characters gay/bi would be cool and good?" I mean they did it with Ice Man already.
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Jun 29, 2016 23:24
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Trast posted:Yes it would. That kind of thinking spawned Twilight and we all saw how that ended. This is the worst use of slippery slope arguments I've seen today. Even if Marvel turned every straight white man in Marvel comics into a non straight white man, it would not require hiring Stephanie Meyer as a writer or writing Twilight-level bad stories (other than writing a clunky event to explain why nobody's a straight white man anymore). burnishedfume fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Jun 29, 2016 |
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