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LordAba posted:This release seems odd compared to the MKII. Granted, MKII did a lot more to change the game, but it felt like it was not only launched better but the lead up time to it was longer and had more going for it. Maybe that's the rose tinted glasses.... PP could not afford the long lead time from announcement to release that mk2 had. They have grown significantly as a company and paying all those people with pretty much no income for half a year would bankrupt the company.
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Jul 4, 2016 21:22
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LordAba posted:This release seems odd compared to the MKII. Granted, MKII did a lot more to change the game, but it felt like it was not only launched better but the lead up time to it was longer and had more going for it. Maybe that's the rose tinted glasses.... The field test was a poo poo show of white noise. There were good parts, but a lot of useless information. No matter what anyone thinks of Mk3, Gaspy 2's Mk2 feat made it through a public playtest.
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Jul 4, 2016 21:25
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I think the legit critique of pp right now is they are acting like baby primadonna designers who can't ever admit fault. They started the narrative of "three years of playtesting" and are so committed to it they can't own up to their obvious mistakes.
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Jul 4, 2016 21:52
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I wasn't around for the field test, but no matter how bad it was, running an apparently completely internal playtest shouldn't have been their answer to that.GEMorris posted:I think the legit critique of pp right now is they are acting like baby primadonna designers who can't ever admit fault. They started the narrative of "three years of playtesting" and are so committed to it they can't own up to their obvious mistakes. And considering how small the playtesting team apparently was and how much they had to try and balance, I can totally believe they spent 3 years on that. I mean, some of the dumb poo poo that they didn't catch is straight up embarassing, like Cleave/Death Toll and Knockdown/Gang, or Soles saying that giving the Blood Pack Assault instead of Assault & Battery is a buff. But overall I can't even blame the people that playtested the rules, just whoever thought that a few people could run a playtest for hundreds of models in a complex game like this, with no outside input over several years, all on the side while fulfilling other roles in the company, and that would somehow work out just fine. Honestly, I think they could have picked like 10 reasonably good players and let them playtest these rules for a month and I'm sure we at least wouldn't be talking about most of the stupid rules (non-)interactions that slipped through. Also, I was still on board with Mk3 before the Gang/Knockdown bullshit because despite all the faults in the rules PP seemed committed to fix the issues people found. But now I'm already losing faith because it's hard to shake the feeling that they decided there are just too many models with Flank and Gang to make new cards for all of them, so gently caress it, working as intended. Wizard Styles fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 22:11
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GEMorris posted:I think the legit critique of pp right now is they are acting like baby primadonna designers who can't ever admit fault. They started the narrative of "three years of playtesting" and are so committed to it they can't own up to their obvious mistakes. I don't think it's that I think it's that they've backed themselves into a corner by playtesting it in house for "3" years, etc coupled with the fact that they've got this new regular errata release. They missed some things, which is fine, but if they admit they really borked this one up it looks more and more like they did the alpha testing in house and are letting us pay to beta test it. Personally, assuming that's the case, I'd be fine with that if they were open about it. Telling people roughly 40 cards or however many are gonna be included in the next errata pack within a week of this release just looks bad. So I see it as damage control not them being prima donnas. I'm mostly sympathetic to their situation I just don't respect anything other than a mea culpa when something goes wrong.
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Jul 4, 2016 22:13
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Yeah so far the mistakes have been just straight up acknowledged and fixed. I think the knock down/gang/etc issue is really the only thing I've seen that actually annoyed me, and I'll be genuinely surprised if that remains unchanged.
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Jul 4, 2016 22:16
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I hope they'll iron out these dumb wacky things in the next 6 months. Seems like they were fully prepared to do so. A lot of dust needs to settle. Maybe they'll nerf Irusk2.
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Jul 4, 2016 22:25
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Sloan, Caine 2, Irusk 2, Butcher 3(?), ???? These guys I can see getting put on the chopping block. Dunno about any Ret or Menoth casters. Cryx seems fine-ish.
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Jul 4, 2016 22:35
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So, obviously I need to buy new faction decks for this update. I'm not as plugged in to the status of this rollout as you guys are, and apparently there are errors all over the place? Should I wait to buy them for corrections or will that not happen?
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Jul 4, 2016 22:37
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Y'all are pretty mad for being in an open beta
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Jul 4, 2016 22:38
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PaintVagrant posted:Y'all are pretty mad for being in an open beta I ain't mad, robots are where it's fuckin at Dr. Red Ranger posted:So, obviously I need to buy new faction decks for this update. I'm not as plugged in to the status of this rollout as you guys are, and apparently there are errors all over the place? Should I wait to buy them for corrections or will that not happen? No, just buy the decks. Any corrections that happen will be on a card by card basis and all you need is whatever errata they put up online anyway so it doesn't matter. And it will probably be a while before they print any of that. There are a decent number of fixes that need made but compared to the amount of stuff in the game it's really not that bad S.J. fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 22:39
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S.J. posted:Sloan, Caine 2, Irusk 2, Butcher 3(?), ???? Ret, as always, has no broken casters. The open question is if the overall power level of infantry/jacks will push the faction into s/op tier. Wizard Styles posted:
Yeah, this was exactly where my patience/support runway ended as well.
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Jul 4, 2016 22:41
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PaintVagrant posted:Y'all are pretty mad for being in an open beta I feel like you are making tabletop wargaming rules issues sound very unimportant which makes you a very wrong person.
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Jul 4, 2016 22:42
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Yeah, the knockdown gang was the point where i was glad i didn't preorder the physical rulebook. I'll pass my time with the dropfleet kickstarter that should roll in soo and watch how warmachine developes for a few months i think. Not that i have much time for games at the moment anyway.
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Jul 4, 2016 22:45
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I'm just saying what better way to avoid all the awful open beta arm chair game designers than just have a beta where nobody knows
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Jul 4, 2016 22:59
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Obviously they did some external testing, otherwise where did the French card leak come from? And, again, PP could not survive a 6 month open playtest or beta or whatever. No one bought models during the mk2 field test or during the short lead time from the announcement of mk3 to release. They should have done more closed/secret playtesting outside of the company, but the more people they add the larger chance of leaks happening, which leads to the same "don't buy stuff, new edition coming" syndrome. It's a very fine line they had to walk.
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Jul 4, 2016 23:18
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Is it pretty common for plastic minis from PP to be shoddy? I just picked up the Khador all in one box and I have multiple minis with 2mm+ gaps in between attachments. I flat out cannot glue the Winter Guard Infantry Rocketeers together as-is, I'm having to use some green stuff to bridge the gap between their arms and sockets before even attempting to glue them together. Their arms are jutting off at such weird angles that only a tiny (and incorrect) portion of the joint is touching the body, leaving a huge gap everywhere else. The metal minis have been great, but these plastics are making me pull my hair out. The last wargame I played was Warhammer 40k but that was a few years ago, but I don't remember having this much issue assembling the GW minis as I am with these. Maybe I got a bad batch? Bazanga fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 23:19
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Khisanth Magus posted:Obviously they did some external testing, otherwise where did the French card leak come from? The printers, same as GW Bazanga posted:Is it pretty common for plastic minis from PP to be shoddy? I just picked up the Khador all in one box and I have multiple minis with 2mm+ gaps in between attachments. I flat out cannot glue the Winter Guard Infantry Rocketeers together as-is, I'm having to use some green stuff to bridge the gap between their arms and sockets before even attempting to glue them together. Their arms are jutting off at such weird angles that only a tiny (and incorrect) portion of the joint is touching the body, leaving a huge gap everywhere else. The metal minis have been great, but these plastics are making me pull my hair out. It happens to some people more than others, but put in a ticket with them and they'll replace the minis or parts you need pretty promptly
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Jul 4, 2016 23:23
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Cool, didn't even realize that was a thing. I'll put one in for these rocketeers for sure. Edit: Disregard that, I'm an idiot. Apparently there were two *very slightly* different arms that came in the same package, one for the gunners, one for the rocketeers. Amazing what happens when you use the right parts instead of trying to force the wrong ones to work. Bazanga fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 23:26
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Bazanga posted:Cool, didn't even realize that was a thing. I'll put one in for these rocketeers for sure. Oh yeah, I remember that bullshit. It's a bit of a weird kit...
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Jul 4, 2016 23:33
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Khisanth Magus posted:Obviously they did some external testing, otherwise where did the French card leak come from? I don't believe this unless PP is at the verge of going bankrupt. If Wyrd could do it in the transition between Malifaux versions there is no reason PP couldn't do it.
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Jul 4, 2016 23:37
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LordAba posted:I don't believe this unless PP is at the verge of going bankrupt. If Wyrd could do it in the transition between Malifaux versions there is no reason PP couldn't do it. I'm willing to bet PP is quite a bit larger than Wyrd is. And the beta period would be, like, 6 months of almost no sales. It isn't unreasonable to say that would do serious harm
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Jul 4, 2016 23:44
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Won 3 out of 3 games with this list today, at 25 points. Vlad2 -Behemoth Iron Fang Pikemen (max) -UA Kayazy Eliminators I went first every game. Played Nemo in the first game and killed him top of turn 3 with some pikemen, Karchev the second game and killed him top of turn 4?5? with Behemoth (I had to smash my way through an enemy Behemoth and a Beast 09 to do so!), and top of turn 3 on a Baldur with some pikemen, again. All 3 games I surprised my opponent by feating turn 2 and jamming models into their face. Nobody was really expecting 13.5" kayazy and 14" iron fangs. The first game the IFP took chunks out of Nemo's Centurion while a trio of Wind Blasts from Vlad prevented a lot of what his gun line was capable of (He was running 2 character heavies with lightning guns) In game 2 I feated and with some boosts lent from Vlad I brought beast 09 down to 3 boxes with IFP while the rest of the crew jammed up karchev, his jacks, and his mechaniks, knocking a lot of guys down with crits. I lost a lot of IFP the next turn not knowing that Beast 09 could thresher on a charge, which was brutal under Karchev's feat! I was sad. I fought back by getting my Behemoth the alpha strike with the help of Assail on his, and the rest of my IFP mopped up his Beast 09. On his turn Karchev was forced to spend 4 focus unsticking my last kayazy, otherwise she could have ran across the board to an objective and never have been able to be un-stuck. Game 3 I killed all his guys on turn 2 with the feat, Eliminators killed 3 medium based Tharn guys while jamming the other 3, and the IFP (with some fire support from Behemoth) blew away the sentry stone, the gorax, and most of the Warpwolf. On his turn he feated but there just wasn't any room to move away from my IFP, who were controlling most of the board, even with his teleport. The tharn tried but failed to kill the kayazy. All in all, Vlad2 moves hella fast and kills poo poo turn 2. Hurray!
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Jul 5, 2016 00:06
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Wyrd was able to do it for the same reason PP was able to do the mk2 field test: they are a small company. PP has grown a lot since then, so being able to survive 6 months on almost no income at their size just isn't really feasible. I doubt their board games bring in a whole lot of income.
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Jul 5, 2016 00:09
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gannyGrabber posted:Won 3 out of 3 games with this list today, at 25 points. Ngl wind blast got one of those sneaky hidden buffs that you kinda gloss over but once you reread it again youre like "oh it's not total rear end now"
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Jul 5, 2016 00:21
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gannyGrabber posted:If it's your first games, i would honestly suggest you treat your models as if they are the battlebox models. They are meant to be played against eachother at 0 points and will give you the fairest game possible for learning. Hey, thanks for the reply, this is exactly what we did to get a feel for the game in general. It went really well! I played my buddy twice against his Retribution box, and then again against his Skorne box. It's crazy how different Fury and Focus are. I also played against another friend of mine who happened to be there, and got crushed really hard by the Magnus list (Magnus, Mangler and Rover) a couple of times. Yesterday we played again and met the guy who's running the Journeyman League at our LGS; he's apparently changing some of the rules for the League - players can use any Warcaster, but there has to be one "ranged" warjack/warbeast and one "melee" warjack/warbeast during Week 1. He's also decided to have week 2 be 15 points instead of 10 - he said that Khador players would really get the shaft if it was 10 points because they'd have to buy a garbage 'jack to fit something into 10 points. So yesterday while playing a few games I used a bunch of different 'jacks that weren't in the battlebox: Hunter, Defender, Charger and Centurion. Centurion was definitely my favorite. I paired the Centurion with a Charger and being able to pepper away at the enemy with the Charger while the Centurion uses his ability to not be charged made me feel like I was really in control of the engagement. Twice my opponent felt forced to run his heavy warbeast into melee, letting me get first strike. As far as warcasters, besides Maddox, I tried Striker1 and Caine1, and Caine2. Caine2 was definitely my favorite, and he really put in work on light warbeasts. Twice I was also able to surprise Gatecrash into the enemy Warcaster's rear arc and put them down. I don't really know what to do for the league now that the organizer has pretty much opened the flood gates as to options. A friend of mine who has been playing Protectorate and Mercs forever suggested the Centurion/Charger combo for Caine2, and then going with a Defender when we get extra points in Week 2. I'm already dreading having to buy more models when I own so much, but I feel the itch. I'm a little overwhelmed with the options, but overall, I'm really liking the game. Feels good not to have any baggage from the previous edition - I don't know what was nerfed so I can't be annoyed.
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Jul 5, 2016 00:39
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Khisanth Magus posted:Wyrd was able to do it for the same reason PP was able to do the mk2 field test: they are a small company. PP has grown a lot since then, so being able to survive 6 months on almost no income at their size just isn't really feasible. I doubt their board games bring in a whole lot of income. I dunno, if my game company was showing that much growth because of a single line I would certainly leverage that into increased savings and potential loans so that I could pimp out my new release with as much pomp as I can. But people who make wargames tend not to be the best businessmen. It's not even a "6 month play test time" or whatever. It just seemed like the new edition just came out with little noise. Maybe I'm just not following tabletop gaming like I used to.
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Jul 5, 2016 00:42
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LordAba posted:I dunno, if my game company was showing that much growth because of a single line I would certainly leverage that into increased savings and potential loans so that I could pimp out my new release with as much pomp as I can. But people who make wargames tend not to be the best businessmen. There is a theory floating about that they intended to announce MK3 at L&L and then release at Gencon but something forced them to move the announcement and release ahead several months.
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Jul 5, 2016 01:02
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No matter how many people you get in a closed playtest, you're still going to get weird wording because that relatively small group of players totally know what those words mean and approved them, even if they don't agree with each other. 
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Jul 5, 2016 01:10
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LordAba posted:It's not even a "6 month play test time" or whatever. It just seemed like the new edition just came out with little noise. Maybe I'm just not following tabletop gaming like I used to. This is just you not paying attention. It's been a 3 month run up to the new edition, which is pretty good considering a new edition tanks sales. GW could afford it because the army books were by and large compatible between editions, and they has unlinked major games to support the other one when one was in end of edition hell. PP doesn't have this. I guess I'm more willing to allow for some hiccups at the start of an edition, because this edition seems way closer to the promise of the game than previous ones. Lots of giant robots is finally a reasonable way to play, instead of the infantry spam that dominated before. But I'm also not a competitive level player and don't really care one way or another about that part of the game.
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Jul 5, 2016 01:18
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GoodBee posted:No matter how many people you get in a closed playtest, you're still going to get weird wording because that relatively small group of players totally know what those words mean and approved them, even if they don't agree with each other. People can point out mistakes and designers can ignore them. I'm sure GW has gotten tons of feedback on moronic decisions and they did stuff like close their forums in response. Magic took like, ten years or more. for the designers to admit flaws in the game that were there from the get-go. Hell, one of the DCGs I played, they had a big pool of playtesters who yes men'd all the dumb decisions and it killed the game. I don't think this was a super bad launch anyway. It depends more on if they stick to their guns about having a more willing to errata rulebook.
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Jul 5, 2016 01:53
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I think maybe a large part of the problem is PP hasn't had a loving editor for literally months.
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Jul 5, 2016 02:02
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albany academy posted:Ngl wind blast got one of those sneaky hidden buffs that you kinda gloss over but once you reread it again youre like "oh it's not total rear end now" It's my favourite spell in the game right now, for sure! It does a lot of work for me and Vlad's control area is just big enough that it stops most things from being able to get shots in on him. Red Hood posted:Hey, thanks for the reply, this is exactly what we did to get a feel for the game in general. It went really well! I played my buddy twice against his Retribution box, and then again against his Skorne box. It's crazy how different Fury and Focus are. I also played against another friend of mine who happened to be there, and got crushed really hard by the Magnus list (Magnus, Mangler and Rover) a couple of times. I saw somebody playing that Magnus battlebox earlier today. It's incredibly strong! Magnus is a really good caster at that point level: with his ability to repair 'jacks, powerful abilities on his weapons, free upkeeps, and his Feat he's going to win a lot of games at that level. I didn't end up finding the time to play against him but I'm fairly confident the trick to winning that fight would be to keep distance and focus on a ranged game: the Mangler can only engage up to 10" away from itself and the Rover and Magnus both have fairly weak guns. The +3 Def from Blur isn't going to make a huge distance on his def 10 Rover, I don't think! For your Cygnar bbox, I would try and keep your range 10 dudes just on the side of the Rover and outside the Mangler's range and keep plugging away with shots, see if he gets impatient and moves his guys up into range where your Ironclad can get the first hit in. Assail just about assures that your Ironclad is going to get hits in before Magnus' 'jacks can. pepper him down with your guns, send the ironclad in, and make sure you us that tremor attack. You can also go the extra mile and abuse Snipe! Cast Snipe on a model on your first turn and upkeep it turn 2, and then on turn 2 after that model shoots, recast snipe on another model. That way in the same turn they both get the +4 range. Next turn just flip it around.
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Jul 5, 2016 02:24
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gannyGrabber posted:I saw somebody playing that Magnus battlebox earlier today. It's incredibly strong! Magnus is a really good caster at that point level: with his ability to repair 'jacks, powerful abilities on his weapons, free upkeeps, and his Feat he's going to win a lot of games at that level. I didn't end up finding the time to play against him but I'm fairly confident the trick to winning that fight would be to keep distance and focus on a ranged game: the Mangler can only engage up to 10" away from itself and the Rover and Magnus both have fairly weak guns. The +3 Def from Blur isn't going to make a huge distance on his def 10 Rover, I don't think! For your Cygnar bbox, I would try and keep your range 10 dudes just on the side of the Rover and outside the Mangler's range and keep plugging away with shots, see if he gets impatient and moves his guys up into range where your Ironclad can get the first hit in. Assail just about assures that your Ironclad is going to get hits in before Magnus' 'jacks can. pepper him down with your guns, send the ironclad in, and make sure you us that tremor attack. If I remember correctly, he was upkeeping Snipe on the Rover, Death Ward on the Mangler and Blur on Magnus. It was super tough to crack. I played against him with Caine2, Centurion and Charger yesterday, and I did better: killed the Rover and got Magnus to half. Mangler had some damage on it too. With the Rover out-ranging my Charger, I was forced to move it in while the Centurion plodded up. He broke my back by making my Centurion stationary and flanking around forcing Caine2 to take some shots that weren't in his favor. It was tense, since Caine is so slippery, but I lost anyway. If I have the chance I'll have to try the battlebox list against this again, maybe it'll have more luck with the spells Maddox has access to.
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Jul 5, 2016 02:47
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It's rather soon to ask, but does anyone know if there's a reliable place to find the new Prime MK3 rulebook in its battlebox format (a.k.a. the mini-rulebook)? It's such a handy thing, but since I play CoC exclusively, I don't have an easy access to it unless I feel like delving into purchasing another army (which, at this moment in time, is not really an option).
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Jul 5, 2016 04:59
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Magile posted:It's rather soon to ask, but does anyone know if there's a reliable place to find the new Prime MK3 rulebook in its battlebox format (a.k.a. the mini-rulebook)? It's such a handy thing, but since I play CoC exclusively, I don't have an easy access to it unless I feel like delving into purchasing another army (which, at this moment in time, is not really an option). I mean outside of ebay I'd say good luck, and even then, it seems a little early.
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Jul 5, 2016 05:12
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After shipping you'll probably spend near the cost of a battle box. Just pick up one for a faction you might want to paint.
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Jul 5, 2016 08:04
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GEMorris posted:Ret, as always, has no broken casters. The open question is if the overall power level of infantry/jacks will push the faction into s/op tier. I dunno. Ossyan feels like he could be a problem.
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Jul 5, 2016 08:13
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xiw posted:http://conflictchamber.com/#b21be-0jge0m0t0F090v1u23231Y Thanks for this, this is a very different selection of Jacks than I had been taking, and I was also married to taking Idrians with him.
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Jul 5, 2016 09:34
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susan posted:I dunno. Ossyan feels like he could be a problem. Leave my Bae alone you monster. Thinking of trying this list this week. Lord Arcanist Ossyan - WJ: +28 - Banshee - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Hypnos - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) Arcantrik Force Generator - PC: 19 Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2 Houseguard Thane - PC: 4 Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2 Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2 Stormfall Archers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 9 Houseguard Halberdiers - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13 - Houseguard Halberdier Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 4 Heavy Rifle Team - Leader & Grunt: 4 House Vyre Electromancers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8 A bit different from my Mk2 Ossy list, having never played the Space Cricket before or the Electromancers. Usually the MHSF are my go to ranged unit with Ossyan but I'm rethinking it. List is designed to have some answer to stealth lists with the Thane and HRT plus a plethora of AOEs.
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Jul 5, 2016 11:13
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