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Olesh posted:Every creature, no matter how absurd it would be to actually use it, is technically capable of performing an unarmed strike, and even receives multiple attacks while doing so if its base attack bonus is high enough. A T-Rex, instead of using it's bite attack, is technically capable of instead ineffectually slapping an opponent three times a round for non-lethal damage. A tyrannosaurus can take Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike, since those feats have no stat requirements. It then gets 3 unarmed strikes which deal 4d6+9 damage, almost as much as its bite (3d6+13). It even gets its bite attack afterwards at -5, or -2 if it takes Multiattack. It can also take Improved Natural Attack to increase the damage to 6d6+9. And hey, it has four useless feats it can replace (Toughness ×3 and Run). So yes, a dinosaur can totally kung-fu you to death.
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Jul 28, 2016 03:04
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Zemyla posted:So yes, a dinosaur can totally kung-fu you to death. Pffft. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8f_spc7Nnw
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Jul 28, 2016 03:11
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Earlier in the thread, I think, was a post about a spell that allowed you to duel someone else without interruptions, but due to poor wording it basically meant that any competition counted and could be cast on allies. Something about "seeing who can kill the most goblins". Am I going insane, or did that exist?
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Jul 28, 2016 05:26
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Shalhavet posted:Earlier in the thread, I think, was a post about a spell that allowed you to duel someone else without interruptions, but due to poor wording it basically meant that any competition counted and could be cast on allies. Something about "seeing who can kill the most goblins". Am I going insane, or did that exist? No, it was like some sort of Norse Holmgang inspired ritual. You're not imagining it.
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Jul 28, 2016 05:32
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:No, it was like some sort of Norse Holmgang inspired ritual. You're not imagining it. Any idea what that post was?
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Jul 28, 2016 05:57
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"Oh man this sure is a hilarious joke intro someone made as their final animation project for college." *reads comments* "This poo poo exists?"
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Jul 28, 2016 06:14
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I guess this one:Eox posted:Paizo recently previewed a new spell from one of their books, intended for Shoanti Humans (I don't remember poo poo about them, I think they're tribal?)
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Jul 28, 2016 06:41
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Is there a difference between having a boulder or a sword when they drop on someone? Could an animated flying sword just dive bomb itself to sever some heads?
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Jul 28, 2016 06:53
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Rexides posted:I guess this one: Might want to quote the spell too. quote:CHAMPION'S BOUT (SHOANTI)
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Jul 28, 2016 15:18
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Yeah that's one example where the intended reading is plain but they've totally failed to communicate the mechanics of it. Which is a pretty good Murphy.
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Jul 28, 2016 15:40
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Okay, let's break that. The range is a minimum of 150 feet, so I'm going to presume it creates an area of those dimensions ...somewhere. Probably centered between the two targets, that seems reasonable. So, if I stand outside that range, I can shoot into it all day long, right? Or does this spell alter the fabric of all reality while it's active. That seems pretty awful, it'd be like getting Duel notifications in an MMO for every five second seizure-fight every time it was cast. What happens if I, as a champion, bring someone into the area to use as a human shield? If they fail their save, do weapons then phase through them? What the hell happens to summoned creatures, familiars, and animal companions? This is a rich vein of Murphy here methinks.
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Jul 28, 2016 17:09
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ZorajitZorajit posted:The range is a minimum of 150 feet, so I'm going to presume it creates an area of those dimensions ...somewhere. It means both your targets have to be within that range of you when you cast the spell, not that it sets up an area (which would otherwise be indicated). Of course, what is the definition of aiding or hindering the targets? Does this only apply towards the duel? Could one of the targets get pickpocketed, as this would not affect their duel, or would this hinder them? In the case of a 'lets see who can kill the most Goblins' type of duel would this forbid Goblins from retreating, as this would hinder the efforts of the duellists in killing them? Could you cast this on a pair of gamblers, and have anyone else at their table be unable to win or leave as this would affect their odds? Would siege engineers be unable to fire catapults at an area containing the duelists from miles away, as having tons of rock landing on you is definitely a hindrance? If you are having a climactic battle on the prow of a ship and a kraken turns up, would it be unable to sink the vessel until the spell wears off? So many questions!
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Jul 28, 2016 17:20
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Don't forget - at some point a bird flying overhead will roll the natural 20 necessary to poop in the general vicinity of one of the champions, at which point all hell breaks loose.
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Jul 28, 2016 17:32
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Dueling would be difficult unless the challenge is to work on separate tasks, because stabbing your opponent is definitely a hindrance. For the ship example, a deck swabbing contest where one person takes port and the other starboard would work.
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Jul 28, 2016 17:36
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It specifically says fight.
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Jul 28, 2016 21:00
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kafziel posted:It specifically says fight. It says they may fight without hindrance. It then says that anyone attempting to hinder or aid either person suffers a penalty. It never even says there must be a contest, they could be allies or even just ignore each other. The spell does not force them to fight each other, and offers no penalty to them fighting anyone else. Indeed, they can't easily fight each other, and there is no exception for either person involved. And if they are involved in a contest, neither could do anything because they would be aiding themselves. That's right, the spell ALSO doesn't exclude the person from aiding or hindering their own actions.
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Jul 28, 2016 21:21
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Kaza42 posted:It says they may fight without hindrance. It then says that anyone attempting to hinder or aid either person suffers a penalty. It never even says there must be a contest, they could be allies or even just ignore each other. The spell does not force them to fight each other, and offers no penalty to them fighting anyone else. Indeed, they can't easily fight each other, and there is no exception for either person involved. And if they are involved in a contest, neither could do anything because they would be aiding themselves. That's right, the spell ALSO doesn't exclude the person from aiding or hindering their own actions. All correct except for the last part. You're not aiding yourself; you're just doing it, so you could progress the contest. You couldn't buff yourself to do it better, though.
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Jul 28, 2016 21:39
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You could, as long as you do it before the spell is cast. I forget if interrupts/delayed actions are A Thing or not (It's been awhile and it's perfectly natural, okay?), but if they are: delay your turn, let your opponent start to cast it, then interrupt them and buff yourself with however much magic you can lay down in a round, then let them finish casting it.
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Jul 29, 2016 05:13
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yeah, but anyone/thing with a better Will save or SR than the original caster just immediately ruins all the fun, so this is really only effective when cast around a bunch of non-magical drunken louts. paladins and iron golems, for example, do not give a poo poo about your stupid strongest man contest edit: even better, well-behaved drunken louts, because they can't interfere in any way. this is exactly the way that everyone behaves after getting belligerently drunk
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Jul 29, 2016 22:02
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The best part is they just released a version that actually works
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Jul 31, 2016 10:34
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Eox posted:The best part is they just released a version that actually works I read that a couple times, and it seems to be that the rest of the party can still attack the enemy: quote:Both targets remain visible and audible, and can see and hear other creatures, but cannot physically interact with any creature save one another. Spells or weapon attacks from the affected creatures impact only each other The wording makes it seem that only attacks originating from the targets are restricted. Even with the a more liberal interpretation where "interact" goes both ways, spells that affect terrain can still affect the duel. Still, I bet there are a lot of other spells on that level that can incapacitate a target on a failed will save, so it doesn't matter how this one works I guess.
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Jul 31, 2016 11:01
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Eox posted:The best part is they just released a version that actually works
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Jul 31, 2016 11:39
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I remember in 3.0 forgotten realms, a sanctified wizard duel was just something wizards could do. Like, Mystra was sick of wizards blowing each other up to prove who was stronger, so she just said 'Rit, just call each other out like this, and your spells will do subdual damage... And do half damage, because let's face it with d4 hit dice this fight is going to go to whoever wins initiative and casts lightning bolt first." And it wasn't a spell, it was just this bit of lore, and it made you think that maybe if a paladin yelled at a necromancer hard enough, their respective gods would keep the fight one-on-one while placing bets. Also also so many of 3rd editions problems could be solved by writing the imtention of the spell rather than every exact mechanic, because that always excludes edge cases. Can't interfere with the duel, but want to fireball everything else? What if you accidentally trigger a trap in the arena?
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Aug 1, 2016 01:43
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Elfface posted:I remember in 3.0 forgotten realms, a sanctified wizard duel was just something wizards could do. Like, Mystra was sick of wizards blowing each other up to prove who was stronger, so she just said 'Rit, just call each other out like this, and your spells will do subdual damage... And do half damage, because let's face it with d4 hit dice this fight is going to go to whoever wins initiative and casts lightning bolt first." In the Realms? I can believe it. For the final point, that was the whole problem with Third Edition.
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Aug 1, 2016 02:47
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I wonder if TMNT was experiencing a resurgence when this got made?
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Aug 1, 2016 04:29
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Elfface posted:
If magic was more about intent and method (and a skill check), than having to spell out every single thing, you'd also have far fewer spells (which is also good)
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Aug 1, 2016 04:43
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Elfface posted:. . . because let's face it with d4 hit dice this fight is going to go to whoever wins initiative and casts lightning bolt first." I'm pretty sure in the realms, the fight is going to go to whomever has the weaker pre-pre-pre-pre-planned divination countermeasures. no actual wizard duel is going to get to the point where the two wizards are in their natural forms and are occupying the same plane of existence and are within actual line-of-sight of each other. I mean, if the duel has already gotten to that point, who cares who shoots a lightning bolt first, that's the most boring wizard duel ever and Mystara shouldn't even care who blasts who first.
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Aug 1, 2016 19:04
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I'm sure it's more for the wizards who are low-level enough that a single lightning bolt can actually kill them that old Mystie is concerned about.
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Aug 1, 2016 19:11
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Kwyndig posted:I'm sure it's more for the wizards who are low-level enough that a single lightning bolt can actually kill them that old Mystie is concerned about. You've hit the nail on the head, except the point that you're missing is that we're not talking about low-level wizards here - a wizard of any level is likely to be killed by a fireball or lightning bolt* in good old 2E. The way hit points worked in 2nd edition AD&D was a little strange. Wizards got d4 hit points per level, plus possibly one or two bonus HP if they had an exceptionally high constitution score (15 or higher), but only up to level 10. After 9th or 10th level (depending on class), characters stopped rolling for HP and instead got a fixed amount of HP per level, again depending on their class, ranging from 1 (wizard) to 3 (fighter) and no longer receive any bonus HP from high CON scores. What this means is that a 10th level wizard without an exceptionally high CON score (most of them) can expect to have an average of 25 HP at 10th level, and an average of 35 at 20th. By comparison, the damage of a lightning bolt or a fireball is 1d6 damage per level of the caster. It shouldn't take very long to realize that damage of these spells starts, on average, higher than the HP of the wizard casting them and only continues to go up. The problem only gets worse as you get to actual higher level spells, where even a successful saving throw eventually ceases to keep you alive on average. It's really no surprise, then, that the deity in charge of magic would come up with an quick and effective way for mages to fight one another (and do so for more than one round), as the alternative at the time was straight up rocket tag. * While Fireball was an old standby and some of its accidental secondary effects are well known - the classic "fireball in an enclosed space", for one ** - Lightning Bolt is a little infamous in 2nd edition AD&D for its tendency to strike a wall and rebound towards the caster, and in some computer RPG versions (Baldur's Gate, for one) the ease of computer calculation on angles would mean that you could accidentally bounce a lightning bolt through your entire party multiple times by accident, probably killing everybody and forcing you to go back to your previous save file. ** While a fireball normally exploded in a 20 foot radius hemisphere, fireball spells expanded to fill the volume of their area, so in areas with low ceilings and/or narrow corridors, fireballs often extended much further than expected - potentially hundreds of feet further. This frequently ended up being unfortunate, as under most circumstances wizards generally can't target a fireball from far enough away to make this quirk of the spell anything other than generally lethal.
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Aug 1, 2016 21:14
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Olesh posted:You've hit the nail on the head, except the point that you're missing is that we're not talking about low-level wizards here - a wizard of any level is likely to be killed by a fireball or lightning bolt* in good old 2E. Elfface posted:I remember in 3.0 forgotten realms . . . you're right about 2E being more deadly in general though. there were fewer ways to completely trivialize HP as a resolution mechanic / threat meter if you were a mage, which kept them at slightly closer parity with the other classes. of course, a high enough level mage with enough forewarning and enough time to prep all of his or her buff spells was still effectively a God among mortals, but it wasn't the insanity of 3.X casters where they're just flat better than everyone at the single digit levels, and ascend to Godhood somewhere around the low double-digits.
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Aug 1, 2016 22:13
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I knew a guy playing in a game that had some unholy combination of templates from Savage Species to the point where he had a natural AC of 40 or so at 6th-8th level or so and some farcical Reflex save. He was basically some generic insectoid murder machine of no obvious or relevant origin. My bard accidentally killed him with a fumbled Use Magic Device roll on a wand of lightning bolt when reviewing the treasure because he had all of 1 or 2 HD and no Evasion. 
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Aug 1, 2016 22:25
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homeless poster posted:valid chiding wrt talking about the wrong edition I don't actually have any of the Forgotten Realms books (our group primarily did Planescape), so I had assumed that this was a mechanic that had existed in 2nd edition - my bad!
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Aug 1, 2016 22:50
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Olesh posted:I don't actually have any of the Forgotten Realms books (our group primarily did Planescape), so I had assumed that this was a mechanic that had existed in 2nd edition - my bad! it probably was; d&d designers are nothing if not legendary for their ability to my sarcastic joke was that Mystra having a special spell that made wizard duels only deal 50% subdual damage via spells cast, should effectively disqualify her from being the goddess of magic, because it belies a fundamental misunderstanding of how high level casters would actually combat each other in 3.X combat. if two casters are at the point where they're both in their natural forms and they're on the same plane of existence and they're within natural line-of-sight to each other, then the casters are so low level that they shouldn't qualify as dueling wizards of sufficient power to even be a blip on her radar. it'd be like if a being claiming to be Ares, the God of War was made manifest in the 21st century and he was still extremely concerned with the superiority of small unit tactics and using a phalanx of spearmen to overcome your opponents, or if he was convinced that alternating firing lines of musketmen was still the height of military superiority.
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Aug 1, 2016 23:29
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I knew a guy playing in a game that had some unholy combination of templates from Savage Species to the point where he had a natural AC of 40 or so at 6th-8th level or so and some farcical Reflex save. He was basically some generic insectoid murder machine of no obvious or relevant origin. Krombopulis Michael.
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Aug 2, 2016 02:09
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homeless poster posted:it'd be like if a being claiming to be Ares, the God of War was made manifest in the 21st century and he was still extremely concerned with the superiority of small unit tactics and using a phalanx of spearmen to overcome your opponents, or if he was convinced that alternating firing lines of musketmen was still the height of military superiority. These days, he's the God of Footy.
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Aug 2, 2016 02:26
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homeless poster posted:it probably was; d&d designers are nothing if not legendary for their ability to
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Aug 2, 2016 03:03
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There were no specific mechanics for FR in 2nd edition - there was the original gray box campaign set, which came out for 1st ed ad&d, and was two books, one an encyclopedia of locations and people and details on the pantheon, and the second book being a couple of short adventures and a list of seed ideas for more, and that was pretty much it. They updated the box set a bit for 2nd ed and reprinted it in 1993, but neither of them really had much in the way of rules, I remember being disappointed at the lack of new rules in it when I got it after having already owned dark sun and spelljammer. Up until 3e, it was in the running for most-generic and bare bones setting with Greyhawk; literally every other setting TSR published had some kind of new rules to incorporate into the game, from spelljammer's space boat rules to dragonlance's new races and classes, to dark sun's more or less total overhaul. Even stuff like al-quadim had more mechanics added in than FR.
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Aug 3, 2016 05:45
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Elfface posted:I remember in 3.0 forgotten realms, a sanctified wizard duel was just something wizards could do. Like, Mystra was sick of wizards blowing each other up to prove who was stronger, so she just said 'Rit, just call each other out like this, and your spells will do subdual damage... And do half damage, because let's face it with d4 hit dice this fight is going to go to whoever wins initiative and casts lightning bolt first." Nothing, because mageduels were specifically Mystra's invention to stop mages from blowing up the area around them and causing mass destruction. (There's another type, the Magisterial Duel, but that's only for challenging the Magister and is specifically shepherded by Azuth.) homeless poster posted:I'm pretty sure in the realms, the fight is going to go to whomever has the weaker pre-pre-pre-pre-planned divination countermeasures. Right, those are the most boring mageduels - except all the ones that occur under exactly those circumstances for one reason or another. Mages play no end of shadow games in the Realms, carefully avoiding confrontations, but they do gently caress up. Or they put themselves in a dangerous situation to acquire something of value, so forth and so on. See the showdown between Elminster and Manshoon in Shadows of Doom for an example of mages finally forced to battle despite their planning to the contrary. Manshoon is giddy to find El weakened and within his grasp. homeless poster posted:it probably was; d&d designers are nothing if not legendary for their ability to Mageduels were probably inspired by the Magisterial Duel, published a year earlier in Secrets of the Magister. When you're preparing material for a shared setting, returning to older concepts and updating and developing them isn't lazy - it's one of the strongest ways to build up the setting. Additionally, "Ed's self-insert fan-fiction novels about Mystra" is a farcical absurdity. I've noted this before, but if Ed did have a self-insert in the Realms, it wouldn't be Elminster, it would be Mirt the Moneylender. Ed's Forgotten Realms work isn't fan fiction - he's the loving creator of the setting, after all. quote:my sarcastic joke was that Mystra having a special spell that made wizard duels only deal 50% subdual damage via spells cast, should effectively disqualify her from being the goddess of magic, because it belies a fundamental misunderstanding of how high level casters would actually combat each other in 3.X combat. if two casters are at the point where they're both in their natural forms and they're on the same plane of existence and they're within natural line-of-sight to each other, then the casters are so low level that they shouldn't qualify as dueling wizards of sufficient power to even be a blip on her radar. Here's a tip: no one on the FR design team was interested in the degenerate idiocy that the character optimization boards made of 3e. The mageduel rules reflect how arcane spellcasters are actually played, both in the rules and in the fiction, and are written for that, not whatever Frank Trollman shat out yesterday. Go away. HotCanadianChick posted:There were no specific mechanics for FR in 2nd edition - there was the original gray box campaign set, which came out for 1st ed ad&d, and was two books, one an encyclopedia of locations and people and details on the pantheon, and the second book being a couple of short adventures and a list of seed ideas for more, and that was pretty much it. They updated the box set a bit for 2nd ed and reprinted it in 1993, but neither of them really had much in the way of rules, I remember being disappointed at the lack of new rules in it when I got it after having already owned dark sun and spelljammer. This isn't true. First off, you're missing a substantial release. Because the Realms was one of the 1e campaign settings TSR updated to 2e, it received a release in what TSR called its "Adventures" series - so a hardbound book called Forgotten Realms Adventures that updated a lot of the rules material about the setting to the new edition. There's a good amount of rules in there, like smokepowder, 15 pages of class changes and conversions, large sections on magic and art objects and so on. The box set you're talking about for 2e is the Revised Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, which was indeed an all-in-one replacement for the older Forgotten Realms Campaign Set. There aren't as many rules in ratio in that box set, particularly because the Realms was 2e's "fit everything in here and make it all usable" default setting, so it was largely required to use the core rules for a lot of things. There are plenty of substantial updates and new information in the Revised Campaign Setting, just not that much more rules. There was a good amount of rules material produced for the 2e Realms in supplements, however. Several books of kits, multiple Monstrous Compendiums, books of wizard and priest magics, books about magic items and equipment and so on. Not as much as 3e, sure, but still plenty.
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Aug 4, 2016 03:54
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What the gently caress is wrong with you. Jesus christ. It's a lovely setting in a bad game. What have you done with your life.
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Aug 4, 2016 04:15
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Relax dude, it's an elfgames thread. Chill. I think it's a good setting in a pretty fun game. There you go.
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Aug 4, 2016 05:49
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