|
Tesseraction posted:I promise to not force gay people eat halal if the Muslims aren't forced to have gay sex. Yeah but seriously. Are gay ppl supposed to limit displays of affection in private spaces to avoid offending Muslim mores? 5. The number of stars I'm rating this thread
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 07:09 |
|
|
Breath Ray posted:Yeah but seriously. Are gay ppl supposed to limit displays of affection in private spaces to avoid offending Muslim mores? No. And Muslims should not discriminated against for wearing full body clothing wherever they so please.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:11
|
|
|
Zephro posted:Fine. For all that they rage against liberals, everyone in this thread supports at least some of the tenets of liberalism to a degree that makes them historically very unusual, better? I detest the formal idea of liberalism because liberalism has not ever actually supported the things it proclaims very loudly, and liberals themselves seldom do either. I grant that there can be liberals who, like working class people voting UKIP, think that liberalism is the truest route to making things better, but they're wrong and/or stupid and don't have the excuse of desperation that the working class have. I do, however, 100% believe in the dignity of humans and that the sole overriding function of government should be to ensure that all its citizens are well cared for. I am not, however, at all interested in the wishy washy liberal bollocks about the rights of the wealthy to protect their supremacy.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:11
|
|
|
LemonDrizzle posted:The magic words are "final salary". Good news, public sector pensions are no longer linked to final salary but against an average of your salary during your employment! Good news unless you're a public sector worker approaching retirement age, that is, as you've spent all those years paying into a scheme thinking it would suffice only to be told the terms have changed and you've lost most of it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:12
|
|
|
Socialism is the democratic organisation of society for the betterment of the members of that society, as such there's the usual criticisms of our lack of democratic control of that society and the eagerness of the ruling classes to use any divisions like sexuality and religious denomination against each other but there's also the need for any group making demands and claims on others to illustrate the benefits. As such religious appeals to divinity will never get much traction in a mixed society when it comes to enforcing social behaviours because while the logic is sound for a believer it is inherent unsound for an unbeliever. I don't believe there's any way around that except for not being a New Atheist to religious people and letting them put their case as best they can but refusing to permit abuse and oppression because they feel it is religiously justified rather than it having an observable benefit.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:18
|
|
|
Jedit posted:Good news, public sector pensions are no longer linked to final salary but against an average of your salary during your employment! Good news unless you're a public sector worker approaching retirement age, that is, as you've spent all those years paying into a scheme thinking it would suffice only to be told the terms have changed and you've lost most of it. Yeah, but that doesn't apply to people who've already retired, presumably. Baby boomers still make bank, the rest of us are progressively more hosed the younger we are.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:19
|
|
|
Jedit posted:Good news, public sector pensions are no longer linked to final salary but against an average of your salary during your employment! Good news unless you're a public sector worker approaching retirement age, that is, as you've spent all those years paying into a scheme thinking it would suffice only to be told the terms have changed and you've lost most of it. Firefighters are allowed to retire at age 50 with full pension if they've done twenty years service, but those who have been promoted to positions when they're not actively running into burning buildings like station managers, divisional officers etc. usually stay on longer. As soon as it got announced they were changing pensions to be based on career average salary instead of final salary, my dad and basically every other firefighter who was eligible pretty much instantly retired to keep the pension they signed up to. A lot of them pretty much got instantly rehired as private consultants on part time hours, too. The guys who were a little too young/hadn't been in the service for quite long got massively hosed.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:20
|
|
|
Jedit posted:Good news, public sector pensions are no longer linked to final salary but against an average of your salary during your employment! Good news unless you're a public sector worker approaching retirement age, that is, as you've spent all those years paying into a scheme thinking it would suffice only to be told the terms have changed and you've lost most of it. If you are a bit younger the best strategy is to scramble up the pay scales as quickly as possible. This is my third job in two years so I have a real breadth of experience.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:21
|
|
|
Breath Ray posted:If you are a bit younger the best strategy is to scramble up the pay scales as quickly as possible. This is my third job in two years so I have a real breadth of experience. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:23
|
|
|
feedmegin posted:But unemployment benefits are also in theory earned through NI contributions, no? That's why NI was originally introduced. That's also how you buy eligibility for a DB scheme with your employer, except that DB schemes really are supposed to be paid from the profits of an investment fund into which everyone pays. The state pension is just paid out of that year's taxes, there's no fund generating income to pay for the withdrawals. So when people say they've "earned" their pension by contributing they're correct legally, in that the rules are indeed drafted that way. But they're not correct financially because the money they paid in over their lifetimes has not been invested and is not now paying out to them now that they've retired. In a financial sense it's simply a benefit like any other, funded from general taxation, with some strange eligibility requirements designed to make it look like something it isn't, for reasons of propaganda. edit: clarity Zephro fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Aug 1, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:25
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I detest the formal idea of liberalism because liberalism has not ever actually supported the things it proclaims very loudly, and liberals themselves seldom do either. I grant that there can be liberals who, like working class people voting UKIP, think that liberalism is the truest route to making things better, but they're wrong and/or stupid and don't have the excuse of desperation that the working class have. It's quite hard to tell from this (and from guavanaut's tongue in cheek dig at Locke above) what you actually mean by liberals and liberalism though, beyond "things and people I dislike," which was the original point.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:26
|
|
|
Breath Ray posted:I think we will move to a double lock as Cameron warned and the ex pensions minister said. It will be funny when we're old and find the pendulum has swung to the young! Having the double lock wouldn't cause the metaphorical pendulum swing to go past the centre on the young-old axis though. It's just taking away the possibility that increases will far outstrip what working age people are getting / people need in years when inflation is low.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:29
|
|
|
Jedit posted:Good news, public sector pensions are no longer linked to final salary but against an average of your salary during your employment! Good news unless you're a public sector worker approaching retirement age, that is, as you've spent all those years paying into a scheme thinking it would suffice only to be told the terms have changed and you've lost most of it. Last time I got my DC statement my pension was worth about 5% more than the sum total of all the money I've paid into it over the 10+ years I've been a member, making a whopping annual return of slightly under 0.5% a year, as opposed to the hilariously improbable 7% assumed by all the worthless pension calculators out there. Retirement's looking good guys 
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:33
|
|
|
LemonDrizzle posted:The magic words are "final salary".
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:36
|
|
|
Niric posted:It's quite hard to tell from this (and from guavanaut's tongue in cheek dig at Locke above) what you actually mean by liberals and liberalism though, beyond "things and people I dislike," which was the original point. Classical, and to a strong degree modern liberalism shouts from the rooftops "we believe in equality and freedom" but it does not actually take much of a critical look at those ideas. A classical liberal looks at say, a The workers come to the liberal and say "we are starving, the state is paying our wages, we still have not enough to live on we should be entitled to more pay because we work very hard" and the liberal says "yes but who will pay them? We should not tell the owner that he must because he has a right not to give you money, because he owns that money" the workers respond with "but we worked for the money so is it not ours if there is any justice?" and the liberal says "no it's the company's because if you didn't agree with those wages you should have found a better job" the workers say "but there are no better jobs, because nobody guarantees our right to one and we have no power to force people to pay us more" the liberal then effectively says "tough poo poo" because they reject the Marxist understanding of economics. Liberals have been, and are, primarily concerned with the freedom of the wealthy, even modern liberals who buy into the concept of social liberalism are overwhelmingly concerned with what the law allows people to do, or ending "social ills" like racism, but if you suggest that a major attack on racism would be to just hand out money to black people in America because one of the most material effects of racism in America is that race correlates strongly with poverty, they will cry about taxes and people needing to get jobs. Liberals reject the idea that economic freedom is the most fundamental freedom, that wealth is the primary dictator of power, for all that social liberals may decry racism and support LGBT issues, they will never take any major steps towards rectifying economic inequality, because they don't consider that wrong.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:37
|
|
|
Cerv posted:Having the double lock wouldn't cause the metaphorical pendulum swing to go past the centre on the young-old axis though. Oh absolutely I just meant it may slow the pendulum or even get it moving back which would be really annoying for me personally.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:37
|
|
|
Jose posted:the state pension costs the government more than all other benefits combined A tough sell, as people tend to believe that their pension contributions get rolled up in the end of a giant slipper under her madge's bed, and that they're paid back with the exact same money. Therefore we should abolish pensions, raise taxes, and just pay old people (scratch that, all people) enough to live as they come. If they want more because they worked a more lucrative job they can bloody well go back in time and tell themselves to open a savings account #YoungManYellsAtCloud
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:39
|
|
|
edit: actually nm
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:43
|
|
|
Zephro posted:Also "forty years of booming house prices" and "huge discounts under Right to Buy" tbf there was a time in the 90s when house prices dipped from 80s highs and ppl who bought then had to pay more interest on their mortgages than ppl today
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:44
|
|
|
Breath Ray posted:tbf there was a time in the 90s when house prices dipped from 80s highs and ppl who bought then had to pay more interest on their mortgages than ppl today
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 16:48
|
|
|
Might as well post this while there's still time. Appropriated from the Scandinavian politics thread.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:11
|
|
|
ThaumPenguin posted:Might as well post this while there's still time. Haha, who is it in the Scandipol thread?
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:14
|
|
|
Tesseraction posted:Haha, who is it in the Scandipol thread? Pissflåps
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:16
|
|
|
Zephro posted:Yeah, it's just about visible as a small alpine meadow on the otherwise sheer slopes of Mount House Price every chart like this should really have london and maybe the south east as their own lines
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:17
|
|
|
Tesseraction posted:Haha, who is it in the Scandipol thread? Ligur I think
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:18
|
|
|
His Divine Shadow posted:Ligur I think Somehow I had a feeling it was going to be him. Malcolm XML posted:Pissflåps I like to imagine there is a poster called this with a member of ABBA with the Beholder head as his avatar.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:20
|
|
|
ThaumPenguin posted:Might as well post this while there's still time. Waaaaay ahead of you buddy 
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:22
|
|
|
ThaumPenguin posted:Might as well post this while there's still time. A Cool and Good post
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:23
|
|
|
I like pissflaps despite his foibles
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:25
|
|
|
Spuckuk posted:A Cool and Good post its really lame as is putting anyone on ignore
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:31
|
|
|
UKIP in Wales's leader faces expulsion unless he resigns as an MEP. At least Labour can take comfort that, even with the chicken coup, they're not this dysfunctional.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:32
|
|
|
I'm hoping to hear more on Piisflaps opinions on Corbyn
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:36
|
|
|
TinTower posted:UKIP in Wales's leader faces expulsion unless he resigns as an MEP. I doubt he really does that big of a job as a MEP
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:37
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I detest the formal idea of liberalism because liberalism has not ever actually supported the things it proclaims very loudly, and liberals themselves seldom do either. I grant that there can be liberals who, like working class people voting UKIP, think that liberalism is the truest route to making things better, but they're wrong and/or stupid and don't have the excuse of desperation that the working class have. this argument-from-history kinda ran out of steam around the time the decidedly liberal-dominated states had successful civil rights movements and the decidedly soviet ones did not (it was probably strongest around 1945-1955, when the tension between the Wilsonian spirit of the new UN charter and the awkward British+French empires plus American apartheid at home was most obvious) and of course afro-asian socialism ran off the rails, moving remarkably fast from anti-imperialism to ethnic cleansing in depressingly many places... supposed alternatives to bourgeois liberal democracy have not acquitted themselves very well ronya fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Aug 1, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:45
|
|
|
Zephro posted:Yeah, it's just about visible as a small alpine meadow on the otherwise sheer slopes of Mount House Price Friendly Humour posted:I'm hoping to hear more on Piisflaps opinions on Corbyn
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:46
|
|
|
Tesseraction posted:I like to imagine there is a poster called this with a member of ABBA with the Beholder head as his avatar. In an alternate universe somewhere...  Jose posted:its really lame as is putting anyone on ignore Agreed. e: I'm not actually intending to put on him ignore. Do as I say not as I do and all that.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:48
|
|
|
I hate this country and i want it to burn to the ground and everyone involved to die, how much closer is that beautiful dream since I gave up on politics to spend more time with
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:53
|
|
|
ronya posted:this argument-from-history kinda ran out of steam around the time the decidedly liberal-dominated states had successful civil rights movements and the decidedly soviet ones did not Jee, I wonder why the states which adopted anti-racism and affirmative action immediately upon their founding didn't have civil rights movements 20 years later.
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:54
|
|
|
Zephro posted:I realise this, but it's pretty weird (especially for lurkers / occasional visitors) to see people raging against the evil liberals while strongly supporting their attitude towards how much power the state should have to enforce things like sexual codes of conduct. Everyone here is a massive liberal by any historical standard. I'll be honest in that I never really used to get that pissed off by liberals until I started reading more Guardian opinion pieces and noticing people I know snootily declare "you shouldn't do ______, it only lowers yourself to their level" and the wistful "there must have been another way" when you have any kind of encounter that is less than polite. All while happily voting in lock step for the Tories and making GBS threads on those less fortunate by saying they need to work harder, or agreeing that austerity and tuition fees are a good thing. Sure you can drive families into poverty and support policies that actually directly or indirectly kill people, but heaven forbid you hurt someones feelings by 'lowering yourself to their level'. I loving hate hand wringing I really do. Reminds me of a couple of years back I went for drinks with this girl and while discussing current events I made an off hand comment about how crazy expensive renting and buying had become these days, she she responded in this wistful tone, "yeah well I think really thats how it should be, because if it wasn't expensive it wouldn't mean anything!"
|
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 17:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 07:09 |
|
|
HorseLord posted:Jee, I wonder why the states which adopted anti-racism and affirmative action immediately upon their founding didn't have civil rights movements 20 years later. well I don't think it's productive to argue this with you, in the particular, but for the sake of wider discussion, I'll point out that an ideology that crystallized in the 1930s was remarkably successful in implementing civil rights as understood in the 1930s (mass secular education and abolishing polygamy in a hurry are not small achievements, as a cursory inspection of central and east asia will show. compare south asia.) but it was unsurprisingly not terribly enthusiastic about further evolutions in feminism or ethnic identity, or any other New Social Movement (greenism, counterculture...). that's not really its fault, as it were, save for the aspect where only liberal societies (virtually by definition) have a characteristically raucous and rancorous open discourse ronya fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Aug 1, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 1, 2016 18:01
|
|