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Mraagvpeine posted:I'm afraid I don't know what that one is. M4-K MU2!KA GR8 AG1N
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Aug 5, 2016 18:58
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| # ? May 16, 2024 00:46 |
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Wow life imitates art imitates life
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Aug 5, 2016 19:00
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You should have finished your beer and chugged a second beer after Dana said that she was intrigued by Dorothy's child-like enthusiasm for doing sex work. It would have added a bit of levity and realism to the situation. Edit: Also, you should have chugged the remaining beers after that one co-commentator explained what "a cat is good too" meant. get that OUT of my face fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Aug 5, 2016 |
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Aug 5, 2016 19:46
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Anoia posted:You have really boring friends. I stand by my assertion that people who like this game understand neither human interaction nor drinking. I fully admit to only partially understanding drinking because most of my experiences with drunks has either been a net negative or neutral experience (loosening of inhibitions is neutral, drunken sillyness/stupidity has rarely been amusing because cops are a pretty big killjoy and most of what I witnessed from people learning of their drunken escapades has been some form of regret.) Really Pants posted:How does hiding your choices give you more agency, or let you add your own thoughts, or somehow make the branches more convenient? None of this makes sense. Choices only matter in games where they either have actual meaning or little-to-no meaning at all. Actual Meaningful choices allow you to drive and affect the story, while Little-to-No Meaning choices let you add personality to it. Both are forms of player agency. Most VN's have a simple dialogue choice system, where your agency is capped by however many choices you can make at a given time. Usually this around 2-3 in the standard 'yes, no, other' format, often combining the two types of agency. Vall Hall A follows the same format for it's criteria (give them what they want, give them what they don't want, get them stonking drunk) but you have 20-something drink options to choose from. You have the same 'directing the story' agency, but tons more of 'adding personality' agency. This is what I mean by the choice system allowing me to add my own thoughts to it. Hiding the choice criteria is a psychology trick that changes the meaning of the choices presented. It's usually intended to make people more honest in their choices rather than trying to game the system (some people will do so no matter what) and that honesty reinforces the agency. By attempting to hide the choice criteria it tricked my brain away from the 'game the system' mode it tends to fall into with other VNs, increasing my enjoyment. This makes branches more convenient because I don't feel the need to seek them out for completion's sake (which would normally be very frustrating.) Vall Hall A's ending structure helps with this too.
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Aug 5, 2016 22:06
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I decided to watch a stream of the game up to this point because I was wondering if the style of this LP was affecting my judgement of this game and it turns out it was, pretty severely. While I still think the technical side of the writing is still mediocre, (which is kinda expected, the writers are ESL) the structure of the story is pretty well done. There were plenty of hints towards main characters and how they were connected outside of the obvious ones explicitly mentioned and plenty of interesting things that I missed while half listening to the commentary. It's not a 9/10 game so far but it's better than I thought. Some of my complaints still stand but it's certainly true that if you go into a story wanting to dislike it, you will.
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Aug 5, 2016 22:46
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If you're looking for a better depiction of drunk people loosening up, you could do worse than to see Babette's Feast. But beyond that, if you've generally seen drunkenness be negative then you've seen people getting too drunk. Alcohol consumption exists as continuum from absolutely sober to unconscious/dead, and there are a lot more points in the middle than just "captain of the carpet ship". In addition, people will have different reactions to the same level of drunkenness, which is why you might hear the terms "sad drunk"/"angry drunk"/"happy drunk". (I turn into a cheerful chatterbox when I've imbibed enough, for instance.) I'm also in the camp that the behavior in this most recent update isn't showing either character being drunk. Sure, they're discussing personal stuff with each other, but Dana had all but literally suggested that anyway when closing the bar for the day and giving herself a de facto invitation to Jill's place. And Jill wasn't really going to say no considering that she's had a romantic interest in Dana. It's just them talking at each other in the usual VN way that the game presents. People can ramble without ethanol giving them impetus to do so, after all. (My family will rag on my father for exactly this, though we mean well.  ) To be fair to the game, it's not clear that such rambling is even supposed to derive from them being drunk. Otherwise I'd have expected body language or subtle dialogue changes (perhaps wobbling a word or two) to demonstrate it.
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Aug 5, 2016 23:01
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Dire Lemming posted:It's not a 9/10 game so far but it's better than I thought. Some of my complaints still stand but it's certainly true that if you go into a story wanting to dislike it, you will. Just a reminder I bought this game with my own money because I thought the premise sounded really interesting.
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Aug 5, 2016 23:06
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Due to the way zen's been playing, I think maybe one person in the entire game thus far could be considered even "tipsy", and that's because they ordered a drink that required a large amount of alcohol. It's the only bar in existence that refuses to serve alcohol unless absolutely necessary. But yeah that means the vast majority of the cast have been sober as judges this whole time. I'm almost afraid to see what they'd look like drunk.
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Aug 5, 2016 23:10
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EclecticTastes posted:But yeah that means the vast majority of the cast have been sober as judges this whole time. I'm almost afraid to see what they'd look like drunk. Depends how you feel about hearing stories of repressed middle school teachers and whichever obvious direction I'm going with this but not going to write down
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Aug 5, 2016 23:14
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Zenithe posted:Just a reminder I bought this game with my own money because I thought the premise sounded really interesting. I know, I didn't mean to imply that was the reason everyone was disliking it. A lot of the things that seem to make you dislike the game I'm largely ambivalent to, and if they're especially bad I'm willing to give the game time to explain itself, so I won't judge some parts until the end.
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Aug 5, 2016 23:20
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Dire Lemming posted:I decided to watch a stream of the game up to this point because I was wondering if the style of this LP was affecting my judgement of this game and it turns out it was, pretty severely. While I still think the technical side of the writing is still mediocre, (which is kinda expected, the writers are ESL) the structure of the story is pretty well done. There were plenty of hints towards main characters and how they were connected outside of the obvious ones explicitly mentioned and plenty of interesting things that I missed while half listening to the commentary. This game coulda been much improved if they just had someone come in to clean up the syntax so conversations aren't so janky, and also maybe had someone go "no no no are you loving kidding, change that" on others. Having outside feedback before your game launches is really important. It's not totally irredeemable, but I still think it fell hard on its face when it comes to appealing to anyone who doesn't have a high tolerance for gross anime bullshit.
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Aug 6, 2016 02:07
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Anoia posted:This game coulda been much improved if they just had someone come in to clean up the syntax so conversations aren't so janky, and also maybe had someone go "no no no are you loving kidding, change that" on others. Having outside feedback before your game launches is really important. Getting native English speaking editor to work with them was probably outside their means. quote:It's not totally irredeemable, but I still think it fell hard on its face when it comes to appealing to anyone who doesn't have a high tolerance for gross anime bullshit. I won't deny I have a high tolerance for gross anime bullshit, but it's not that I'm ignoring all the problems you bring up because of it. There were a lot of explanations for why characters act the way they do that I guess you saw differently. I could make a big post later about the specific reasons I don't hate the characters so much. I still think some of them are terrible people, just not characters that shouldn't exist.
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Aug 6, 2016 07:38
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Anoia posted:This game coulda been much improved if they just had someone come in to clean up the syntax so conversations aren't so janky I'm honestly willing to cut indie devs a lot of slack for not having the money to get perfect localizations, and in fairness, the dialog in this game flows much better word-to-word than, say, Knights of Pen and Paper and Chroma Squad (though both of those are far better games in literally every other possible respect). The issue with this game comes with the way the conversations don't even move between topics smoothly, like, I don't think they would have looked quite right in any language.
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Aug 6, 2016 07:46
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EclecticTastes posted:The issue with this game comes with the way the conversations don't even move between topics smoothly, like, I don't think they would have looked quite right in any language. I've realised that this is in part due to the fact that conversation branch literally in two depending on character states. It's basically conversation 1, if drunk conversation 2, if sober conversation 3. So far from what I've seen the conversation topics aren't related in any way so you can pretty easily tell when you've changed gears.
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Aug 6, 2016 07:53
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That's... Really not a great way to handle the split dialogue path thing. Surely there could be some sort of connecting topic inbetween to make it less... Clunky? To transition between conversation states.
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Aug 6, 2016 13:49
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EclecticTastes posted:I'm honestly willing to cut indie devs a lot of slack for not having the money to get perfect localizations, and in fairness, the dialog in this game flows much better word-to-word than, say, Knights of Pen and Paper and Chroma Squad (though both of those are far better games in literally every other possible respect). The issue with this game comes with the way the conversations don't even move between topics smoothly, like, I don't think they would have looked quite right in any language. That's what content editors do, make sure it all sounds right and, y'know, make sure isn't just a bunch of references in a blender. Dire Lemming posted:Getting native English speaking editor to work with them was probably outside their means. And the explanations are still bullshit. Take Ingram. His excuse of "he's a jerk because he had a daughter who was taken and she died" is the weakest piece of poo poo attempt to round out a jerk character in the book, but I will give them points for accidentally landing on the reason why people stay in abusive relationships with jerks like him. "but he loves his kid!!" big loving deal Dorothy is unnecessary creepy pedo bullshit no matter how you shake it. And so on and so forth. With the exception of Donovan, aside from his sexcapade tirades that seem like they're wedged in to fit with all the other sexually frustrated writing that oozes in the game, every bit of backstory a character a reveals just makes me dislike them more. Half the time it's ripped straight out of a Beginner's Guide to Character Depth, like when Jill talks about being weird girl 5,471 to get invited to prom by cool kids only to get stood up as a prank. Anoia fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Aug 6, 2016 |
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Aug 6, 2016 13:53
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Anoia posted:Dorothy is unnecessary creepy pedo bullshit no matter how you shake it. no you see looking like a child gives her an advantage
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Aug 6, 2016 18:25
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NGDBSS posted:If you're looking for a better depiction of drunk people loosening up, you could do worse than to see Babette's Feast. But beyond that, if you've generally seen drunkenness be negative then you've seen people getting too drunk. Alcohol consumption exists as continuum from absolutely sober to unconscious/dead, and there are a lot more points in the middle than just "captain of the carpet ship". In addition, people will have different reactions to the same level of drunkenness, which is why you might hear the terms "sad drunk"/"angry drunk"/"happy drunk". (I turn into a cheerful chatterbox when I've imbibed enough, for instance.) Can confirm, am all three levels of drunk at different points throughout the night/dependent on setting. NGD knows, they were in my stream last night. Streamshib is happy drunk. LP-shib is sad drunk between recordings. Valhalla-shib is angry. All the time. Forever. In regards to the game, I've actually had to rewatch the episodes because my life's been a whirlwind lately, and I have to say I'm more judgmental sober than drunk. I'm willing to concede that the game isn't as atrocious as I first thought, but I still wouldn't rate it anything beyond "below average" at best and "actual garbage" at worst.
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Aug 6, 2016 20:30
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It's not the worst VN I've seen, but thanks to bad game voidwalking every bad VN blurs together now. This is at least more stylish than most. The growing trend I'm noticing of bad cyberpunk themed games with undeservedly good soundtracks is starting to unnerving me.
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Aug 6, 2016 21:53
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Anoia posted:It's not the worst VN I've seen, but thanks to bad game voidwalking every bad VN blurs together now. This is at least more stylish than most. Cyperpunk seems to be having an odd resurgence in popularity. Which both perplexes me and doesn't surprise me as I can see why people would be drawn to it while also thinking "weren't we done with the 'punk' craze twenty years ago?"
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Aug 6, 2016 21:56
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Covok posted:Cyperpunk seems to be having an odd resurgence in popularity. Which both perplexes me and doesn't surprise me as I can see why people would be drawn to it while also thinking "weren't we done with the 'punk' craze twenty years ago?" Everything old is new again.
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Aug 6, 2016 22:26
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Covok posted:Cyperpunk seems to be having an odd resurgence in popularity. Which both perplexes me and doesn't surprise me as I can see why people would be drawn to it while also thinking "weren't we done with the 'punk' craze twenty years ago?" Anoia posted:The growing trend I'm noticing of bad cyberpunk themed games with undeservedly good soundtracks is starting to unnerving me. Anoia posted:And the explanations are still bullshit. Take Ingram. His excuse of "he's a jerk because he had a daughter who was taken and she died" is the weakest piece of poo poo attempt to round out a jerk character in the book, but I will give them points for accidentally landing on the reason why people stay in abusive relationships with jerks like him. "but he loves his kid!!" big loving deal Explanations are explanations, it'd be even more BS if they weren't there. I agree that Ingram's one of the weakest characters in the game (he's abrasive and doesn't have enough screentime to get past that) and I disagree about Donovan, since his sexcapade stuff fits in with his character (it'd be out of place if he didn't talk about sex as much in the first place.) Dorothy has a single shake where she works out: the pedo BS is just as unnecessary to her as it is to the rest of the game. The depth could have been worse: it could have been all of the time AND poorly implemented
EponymousMrYar fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Aug 7, 2016 |
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Aug 6, 2016 23:19
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Anoia posted:The growing trend I'm noticing of bad cyberpunk themed games with undeservedly good soundtracks is starting to unnerving me. Consider that even the really bad Sonic the Hedgehog games had pretty legit soundtracks. It's not all that unusual a trend, a bad game having surprisingly good music.
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Aug 7, 2016 00:21
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Are you really going to argue that a lovely explanation is acceptable? Well, poo poo, in that case this games gets the gold star of gold stars: 
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Aug 7, 2016 04:59
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EponymousMrYar posted:
I know it's not what you mean, but do you seriously see this as a positive thing? I haven't seen enough to know where her character arc goes, but if it is 100% unrelated to her being established as a sex worker then it goes from "OK, this creepiness may be artistically justified as the story develops" to "OK, they included a 10 year old looking sex worker for no credible reason whatsoever".
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Aug 7, 2016 05:46
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Zenithe posted:I know it's not what you mean, but do you seriously see this as a positive thing? I haven't seen enough to know where her character arc goes, but if it is 100% unrelated to her being established as a sex worker then it goes from "OK, this creepiness may be artistically justified as the story develops" to "OK, they included a 10 year old looking sex worker for no credible reason whatsoever". It's positive in that it removes the biggest controversial aspect of the game. If Dorothy is the fat albatross that's dragging the game down, then the 'chose to appear under-aged to get ahead in the sex business' aspect of her character is the rusty iron chain around the albatross's neck, dragging it down. There's enough development of her character that I can say the author was going for the former statement, but it's not enough to justify them pushing the pedo BS button. If you remove that then the justifications match up a lot more. Her being an enthusiastic sex worker robot is still fetish bait but it's way more palatable without the under aged appearance part.
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Aug 7, 2016 09:13
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There is never a good literary reason to glorify or rationalize sexual violence against minors. I just felt it needed to be reiterated for the pedobot fanclub
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Aug 8, 2016 19:32
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can we maybe not make all the posts after every update about dorothy maybe? 'round and 'round in circles with this poo poo
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Aug 8, 2016 20:12
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So,to try and change the subject:Anoia posted:It's not the worst VN I've seen, but thanks to bad game voidwalking every bad VN blurs together now. This is at least more stylish than most. Can the thread recommend any good VN's? If they exist?
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Aug 8, 2016 20:45
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I'm not ashamed to say I legitimately loved Zero Time Dilemma
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Aug 8, 2016 20:49
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All the best VNs I've played are only half VN, and half some other kind of game--Zero Escape, Persona 4, Valkyria Chronicles, etc. Would Tales from the Borderlands or The Wolf Among Us count, or is that too much of a stretch?
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Aug 8, 2016 22:20
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Really Pants posted:All the best VNs I've played are only half VN, and half some other kind of game--Zero Escape, Persona 4, Valkyria Chronicles, etc. Telltale games are adventure games because they focus on puzzle solving and item collection.
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Aug 8, 2016 22:23
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Really Pants posted:Valkyria Chronicles Wait,that's classified as a VN? I thought it was a realistic WWII reenactment. 
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Aug 8, 2016 22:24
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VolticSurge posted:Wait,that's classified as a VN? I thought it was a realistic WWII reenactment. It's a game that just happens to have a lot of cutscenes, same as Persona 4. The aforementioned Zero Escape is fantastic, and so is the Phoenix Wright series. For "pure" visual novels, Umineko is apparently a really good mystery with fantastic music.
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Aug 8, 2016 22:26
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Covok posted:Telltale games are adventure games because they focus on puzzle solving and item collection. So does Zero Escape
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Aug 8, 2016 23:02
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I agree that telltale games are as close from western VNs as you can get. The idea of lots of character driven plot and dialogue decisions is still the same. They are not static pictures though. ... No 2D = No waifu = No VN?
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Aug 8, 2016 23:13
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Are visual novels just an odd name for adventure games that don't have enough gameplay?
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Aug 8, 2016 23:17
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The Genre has been widened significantly after Professor Layton and Pheonix Wright showed that adding even the most basic of gameplay segments to an excellent story enhances the experience. Before a VN was just that, a whole lot of words and some pictures to go along them. Maybe some dialogue choices of word-based logic puzzles (Analogue and it's sequel for example.) Now there's not a lot of true-blue VN's being made anymore as other genre's have been incorporating more story into them (Adventure ala Telltale's games, Puzzles ala Zero Escape, Danganronpa etc.) to great success.
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Aug 8, 2016 23:29
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VolticSurge posted:So,to try and change the subject: I'm personally rather fond of Dengeki Stryker. Its nothing intelligent, and certainly riddled with shonen anime cliches, but its fun as hell and has music by Masaki Endoh. Muv Luv Alternative's as good as they say it is, but you'll have to slog through Extra, Unlimited and the downtime segments of Alt itself that lurk between the awesome segments where they actually do stuff rather than stand around talking. Expect the skip key to see a lot of use. Kamidori Alchemy Meister and Big Bang Age are both good if you want some T/SRPG mixed in with your VN, the latter basically being Sengoku Rance without the rapey MC. Other than that, G-Senjou no Maou, Saya no Uta and Steins;gate are all well regarded for good reason. GilliamYaeger fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Aug 8, 2016 |
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Aug 8, 2016 23:32
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Covok posted:Telltale games are adventure games because they focus on puzzle solving and item collection. Uh, have you played their more recent ones?
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Aug 9, 2016 00:35
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