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BarbarianElephant posted:I think this is putting the cart before the horse. Alt-right guys can't get laid because they are alt-right. They aren't alt-right because girls wouldn't have sex with them, that's just what they think, but it's wrong. Girls don't want to have sex with guys who are seething cauldrons of barely suppressed rage, because girls don't want to end up with a black eye at the high school prom. Yes, just look at how women treat guys who participate in violent sports or despise famous singers who rough up their girlfriends. Women prefer the doughy, docile millenial male above all else.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:53
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steinrokkan posted:The "problem of high school sex" is in fact a problem of being unable to socialize, due to any number of personal or family pathologies that could probably have been be easily addressed if more resources were put to it, or if they came from less dysfunctional backgrounds. Reducing the issue to not getting laid is just further shaming them for their lack of masculine achievements, and drives them deeper into self loathing and frustration, and therefore towards hating people around them. We, random strangers in the rest of society, are not their therapist, and the first and foremost objective is to protect the people they could hurt.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:54
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rudatron posted:Let's get real here: if these people were given an iota of power, they would abuse it to hurt others. It's one thing to look at people's situations, and then talk about how context created that person. And sure, their lives probably aren't that great, their frustrations are real, as are the frustrations of all people who want to live a simple life, and cannot. But whatever sympathy that garners them, goes out the loving window as soon as they start blaming people weaker than them, and start dreaming horrid fantasies of mass death and oppression. You can't treat them with kid gloves, you have to hit them where it hurts. Yeah, I can't say I find it easy to sympathize with people that go out of their way to throw racial and sexual slurs at me and people like me, and openly talk and fantasize about crushing and driving out the untermenschen that have sullied the purity of their once great country, whatever their hardships. It sucks that they're suffering, but that doesn't excuse their reaction to it.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:58
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on the left posted:Yes, just look at how women treat guys who participate in violent sports or despise famous singers who rough up their girlfriends. Women prefer the doughy, docile millenial male above all else. It *is* possible to date a woman even as a wife-beater, but you'd better be prepared for her to be equally hosed up. No? What's that? You want her to be completely sane and level headed - "don't put your dick in crazy"? Oh boy! This is one reason why misogynists get even more embedded in their ways as they get older. If only crazy women would date you, you are going to have your impressions of all women as crazy thoroughly confirmed. Nice that you assume that only wife-beating rock stars are attractive, and all other men are "doughy" - are we adding misandry to the misogyny?
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Sep 29, 2016 16:08
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on the left posted:Yes, just look at how women treat guys who participate in violent sports or despise famous singers who rough up their girlfriends. Women prefer the doughy, docile millenial male above all else. Women don't date those guys because of the anger issues, they date them in spite of those issues. Boring with barely-concealed anger is a magically awful combination.
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Sep 29, 2016 16:47
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Ok, so let's move away from talking about why some guys don't get laid in college for a moment cuz yeah I think the major catalyst for the rise of the far-right was the refugee crisis in Europe, and before that, the series of events which got a lot of coverage by the media of free speech being threatened by elements of the left on college campuses (this really struck a cord: for a variety of reasons).
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Sep 29, 2016 17:13
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steinrokkan posted:Poor people are just losers who can't get laid - A progressive Not poor people, young white men. Plenty of poor people get laid. You know: Dance, and drink, and screw 'Cause there's nothing else to do MRAs and general misogynist "intelligentsia" are almost all educated white guys who haven't socialized "normally." Reddit and Imgur are full of them. When they are not posting about how feminism is actually a social disease propagated by undesirable women, they are complaining about how they can't establish relationships.  doesn't really cover it, it's almost impossible to take as anything besides projection.This sentiment is a worldwide phenomenon among first-world states, in some places worse than others. Japan for example has become infamous for its alienated, asocial men who pathologically grope women on public transportation. Now they are at social crisis level. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/20/young-people-japan-stopped-having-sex There are underlying social and economic causes, no one is actually arguing that "poor people = losers," that's a gross oversimplification and not what anyone here said.
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Sep 29, 2016 17:18
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Not poor people, young white men. Plenty of poor people get laid. You know: You can actually see it in a lot of their anti-feminist writing that if society were the way it was in the 1950's and earlier, they'd have no problem finding girlfriends/wives. Funnily enough, I think that idea may actually hold some weight, but not for the reasons they think (because of economic/social isolation factors as opposed to some idea about women now being able to be more choosy or whorish).
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Sep 29, 2016 17:31
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mojo1701a posted:You can actually see it in a lot of their anti-feminist writing that if society were the way it was in the 1950's and earlier, they'd have no problem finding girlfriends/wives. Funnily enough, I think that idea may actually hold some weight, but not for the reasons they think (because of economic/social isolation factors as opposed to some idea about women now being able to be more choosy or whorish). There were unwillingly single men back in the '50s, too. It's just that a nerdy bachelor in the '50s probably just holed up at home with his sci-fi paperbacks and stamp collection, wondering why Betty-Ann wouldn't go to the drive-in B-movie with him when she (the slut) was happy to go to the sock-hop with Earl on his motorbike (seethe.) The difference is there was no internet to act as a megaphone for the disgruntled. The socially isolated have always existed and previously left little record, for obvious reasons.
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Sep 29, 2016 17:53
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BarbarianElephant posted:There were unwillingly single men back in the '50s, too. It's just that a nerdy bachelor in the '50s probably just holed up at home with his sci-fi paperbacks and stamp collection, wondering why Betty-Ann wouldn't go to the drive-in B-movie with him when she (the slut) was happy to go to the sock-hop with Earl on his motorbike (seethe.) The difference is there was no internet to act as a megaphone for the disgruntled. The socially isolated have always existed and previously left little record, for obvious reasons. Yeah, now you can pretend that being a recluse is an ethos.
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Sep 29, 2016 17:55
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Some Guy TT posted:...Not trying to be a dick or anything, I just find it uncanny how eerily similar so much of the rhetoric thrown around is if you flip the terms around. If the alt right is saying that then they are completely and absolutely incorrect and it makes absolutely no sense, and I have no idea what made up concept of "the left" they're arguing against.
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Sep 29, 2016 18:03
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It is. Many people choose a solitary life to substitute social activity with various form of electronic entertainment. And there have always been induviduals that chose to isolate themselves as much as their situation would allow. When it is concious choice it is just as valid as any other.
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Sep 29, 2016 18:06
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mojo1701a posted:You can actually see it in a lot of their anti-feminist writing that if society were the way it was in the 1950's and earlier, they'd have no problem finding girlfriends/wives. Funnily enough, I think that idea may actually hold some weight, but not for the reasons they think (because of economic/social isolation factors as opposed to some idea about women now being able to be more choosy or whorish). Also because a lot of the men are dead.
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Sep 29, 2016 18:08
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Freakazoid_ posted:If the cause of the alt-right is a lack of high school sex, how do you go about solving that problem? i think the incel thing is overblown - it's a funny attack against the socially awkward, but i'd also include hardcore MRA/PUA types as those who are likely to be in the alt-right really the cause of the alt-right is the internet allowing young, angry, socially regressive people (mostly men) to congregate and self radicalize on their own terms, where previously these guys would have been absorbed into an extant community instead of forming their own. the military and then the VFW/Legion, various small town political clubs, laroucheism, or just becoming a regular at some dismal bowling alley or bar. american civic life has drastically changed since the late 20th century and the internet allows people to both commune mentally in large numbers as well as amplify their own and others radical beliefs. we've lost the moderating effect of pre-telecommunications social organization on radical politics, and this cuts to both the left and the right - as well as in non-political terms, like the growth of weirdo outcast cultures like furries OneThousandMonkeys posted:Yeah, now you can pretend that being a recluse is an ethos. also prior to the internet, you couldn't be a physical recluse while also keeping in active touch with a community of like minded people. like you could write letters and read niche hobbyist literature but the rate of information transfer and feedback was much slower. now it's possible to cut off physical social contact while maintaining and active and somewhat invisible from the outside conversation with any number of specialized communities, given the intensely personal and anonymous nature of internet communication boner confessor fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 18:10
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OwlFancier posted:Also because a lot of the men are dead. Yup. About 400,000 Americans dead in WW2, mostly men. Must have improved the odds somewhat for those men who survived or missed the war.
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Sep 29, 2016 18:20
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BarbarianElephant posted:There were unwillingly single men back in the '50s, too. It's just that a nerdy bachelor in the '50s probably just holed up at home with his sci-fi paperbacks and stamp collection, wondering why Betty-Ann wouldn't go to the drive-in B-movie with him when she (the slut) was happy to go to the sock-hop with Earl on his motorbike (seethe.) The difference is there was no internet to act as a megaphone for the disgruntled. The socially isolated have always existed and previously left little record, for obvious reasons. That's a good point. I think with the advent of wider and more monetized mass media has increased pressure to conform to a commodified form of sex and relationships instead of just saying, "Well, there's more to life...". I'm not talking in absolute terms, mind you, I'm merely saying that the odds may have been better then. My point was that living in a society with higher pockets of isolation (think small towns with less immigration) and with less ability to find like-minded individuals also forced people into conformity within the immediate surrounding community (not unlike living in a smaller more tight-knit community also put more social pressure on someone to attend church) which also would have the effect of interacting with the local community. I admit that this is just me and I have no real proof, so I could be talking out of my rear end on this one. OwlFancier posted:Also because a lot of the men are dead. That is also an excellent point. edit: Also this: boner confessor posted:i think the incel thing is overblown - it's a funny attack against the socially awkward, but i'd also include hardcore MRA/PUA types as those who are likely to be in the alt-right
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Sep 29, 2016 18:20
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I mean it's a very small fraction of the US population at the time but given the army selects for young, physically capable men, it probably also selects for the attractive men somewhat too.
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Sep 29, 2016 18:22
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boner confessor posted:i think the incel thing is overblown - it's a funny attack against the socially awkward, but i'd also include hardcore MRA/PUA types as those who are likely to be in the alt-right Yeah pretty much this; before the internet became ubiquitous in our lives you had to really work at it to find an echo chamber. Nowadays a quick google search and you're good to go. That being said though, I think in terms of the MRA movement there's something I'm missing in terms of its development. I remember when I was 20/21 (which was 10 years ago now) I was a pretty vocal MRA (even though that term really didn't exist). I was one of those insufferable pricks who asked why I couldn't have a "Men's Centre" or a "Scottish Cultural Centre" etc. etc, took issue with vocal feminists and generally was a privileged douchebag. Thing is, I was coming at it from a twisted form of intersectionalism. I obviously had my head up my rear end but I was genuinely trying to work my way through my issues of representation from my own experiences. Then I dated a feminist who through a lot of patience and a manner that inspired me to read some actual feminist literature smartened me up and got me to a place where I could at least start to understand concepts like Privilege and real Intersectionality. For a long time I assumed this was where a lot of MRAs where coming from, that it was genuinely a desire to achieve true equality and break down patriarchal gender norms and they just needed to see the other side and realize there was very little difference in their philosophy and feminism, but over the years I'm increasingly not seeing that, which is very depressing. Was I just an outlier or did something get into that group and turn it into the ball of awful it currently is?
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Sep 29, 2016 18:22
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Renaissance Spam posted:For a long time I assumed this was where a lot of MRAs where coming from, that it was genuinely a desire to achieve true equality and break down patriarchal gender norms and they just needed to see the other side and realize there was very little difference in their philosophy and feminism, but over the years I'm increasingly not seeing that, which is very depressing. Was I just an outlier or did something get into that group and turn it into the ball of awful it currently is? quote:Yeah pretty much this; before the internet became ubiquitous in our lives you had to really work at it to find an echo chamber. Nowadays a quick google search and you're good to go.
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Sep 29, 2016 18:32
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Renaissance Spam posted:For a long time I assumed this was where a lot of MRAs where coming from, that it was genuinely a desire to achieve true equality and break down patriarchal gender norms and they just needed to see the other side and realize there was very little difference in their philosophy and feminism, but over the years I'm increasingly not seeing that, which is very depressing. Was I just an outlier or did something get into that group and turn it into the ball of awful it currently is? there's all kinds of dumb poo poo young people end up convincing themselves to believe in, when i was a teen i had convinced myself that both eugenics and anarcho-primitivism were excellent ideas. the difference is if you as an individual are capable of introspection and modifying and moderating your views or if you dig in and refuse to change. this is why there are both tons of people who say "i read ayn rand in high school, and for a while i was a real jerk..." as well as 40 year old objectivists twodot posted:Like it's certainly possible to begin to address gender equality through a lens of men's issues (rare as they are), but it's a really bad way to build an echo chamber, and it's way easier to participate in echo chambers than try to build activism to address targeted issues. Even inside the echo chamber you can probably find individuals who are earnestly concerned about men's issues, and just don't know where else to go. i'd also say it's harder to convince people that they're wrong over the internet given the generally hostile and tribal nature of long running arguments between viewpoints. if someone gets really involved in MRA and identifies that way they may start seeing any argument from the feminist tribe, no matter how convincing or well considered, as easily dismissable crap, which over time just serves to reinforce the tribe mentality. you can see this with all kinds of dumb internet rivalries, how reddit, sa, and 4chan hate each other, or how different subforums on sa hate each other, or even different threads within subforums, though as you get more granular the rivalries become even more imaginary and baseless boner confessor fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 18:37
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Who What Now posted:It's not the idea that having a relationship with one other partner is bad, it's the idea that you are bound forever and ever to the first person you gently caress is what's bad. Not all relationships last forever and forcing people to remain in an unhappy or even openly hostile one is what's bad. Do most people marry the first person they gently caress? Now of course people should probably not be willing to just get into relationships willy nilly. But I doubt most marry the first person they have sex with. Also for anyone who wants to rebuild social organizations, bringing back universal service would do wonders.
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Sep 29, 2016 20:59
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Crowsbeak posted:Do most people marry the first person they gently caress? Now of course people should probably not be willing to just get into relationships willy nilly. But I doubt most marry the first person they have sex with. The "Highschool Sweet Heart" was a thing. It wasn't true, but the media definitely paints it as true. Pretty much every Disney show that's about highschool or even look at Harry Potter, they went through school knowing each other and then got married. For some reason they never met anyone outside of school after they graduated. People like to do what the media tells them
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Sep 29, 2016 21:19
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Most of you guys are basically hysterical about the archetype being some sort of 4channer virgin or something seething with anger, but I prefer this description: http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/03/29/an-establishment-conservatives-guide-to-the-alt-right/amp/?client=ms-android-bell-ca&espv=1 I would think one factor being overlooked by the people repeating the same incel narrative over and over is the fact that this seems to be the secularizing of the American Right. Sorry if this violates the D&D safe space/circlejerk Sethex fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 23:49
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I don't really see anything in there that contradicts "virginal 4channer seething with rage" other than that the author apparently likes them.
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Sep 30, 2016 00:04
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Sethex posted:Most of you guys are basically hysterical about the archetype being some sort of 4channer virgin or something seething with anger, but I prefer this description: the most notable thing about this article is that apparently I've talked to razib khan before and had no idea who he actually is
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Sep 30, 2016 00:08
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Sethex posted:I would think one factor being overlooked by the people repeating the same incel narrative over and over is the fact that this seems to be the secularizing of the American Right. the secularizing of the american right is the pro business social liberal technocrat wing of the republican party. the alt-right is just a collection of malcontents and personality disorders egging each other on into increasingly antisocial behavior like the world's largest congregation of giggling teenage boys
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Sep 30, 2016 00:11
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The mutual hatred between the alt-right and the millennial left is a clear case of the narcissism of small differences.
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Sep 30, 2016 01:43
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SickZip posted:The mutual hatred between the alt-right and the millennial left is a clear case of the narcissism of small differences. https://twitter.com/parliawint/status/750813214737399808
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Sep 30, 2016 01:58
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Noam Chomsky posted:alt-right === "People won't have sex with me. Waaaah! It's because of feminism and minorities! Waaaah!" I was looking at these bizarre alt-right "murdoch murdoch" youtube videos (that I think may have been linked in this thread? forget), and like half the comments are fantasies about the girl character in the videos and talking about how they wish they could meet their own sexy white nationalist/nazi girl.
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Sep 30, 2016 02:18
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OwlFancier posted:I don't really see anything in there that contradicts "virginal 4channer seething with rage" other than that the author apparently likes them. Opinion articles without evidence don't usually counteract opinion posts lacking evidence. Sethex fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 02:38
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A huge amount of the armchair psychologist garbage from this thread could apply in equal measure leftists "radicals"
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Sep 30, 2016 02:39
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Noam Chomsky posted:Saying that the alt-right is made up of angry young white men - angry because they have no prospects - is not just making fun of them because they can't get laid. Do you think the left has a particularly good handle on understanding modern society? Do they have it figured out?
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Sep 30, 2016 02:41
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Where's this subculture of angry virgin communists and why haven't I heard about them, they sound cool.
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Sep 30, 2016 02:41
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OwlFancier posted:Where's this subculture of angry virgin communists and why haven't I heard about them, they sound cool. Literally any leftist forum or twitter group I've seen has had the same markers of social maladjustment and alienation that some people seem to think is what's engendering the nu right.
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Sep 30, 2016 02:47
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I'm not sure that being huge dorks is what makes the alt right who they are, they just are huge dorks and it's loving funny when huge dorks create elaborate social justifications for why they suck with women as opposed to it being because they're utterly hateful dickheads. Like, a major pillar of the alt right is that women are whores because they won't sleep with alt righters, I'm not sure the left has an equivalent there. The left certainly has Views about women but I don't think any of them are "they are obligated to sleep with me and if they don't here's a big list of why they're actually killing society with their promiscuous not-sleeping-with-me ways.
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Sep 30, 2016 02:51
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TheNakedFantastic posted:Do you think the left has a particularly good handle on understanding modern society? Do they have it figured out? Given we're on the eve of some pretty disruptive innovation, globalization and capitalism are starting to show structural weakness (the left isn't capable of any firm alternative/remedy outside of conventional theories that I know of) the religious revival in Islam is proving to be a bad thing for many western societies (which the left isn't capable of handling) and climate change, likely the most severe problem facing humanity, and a problem the left largely addresses but perhaps not centrally enough. Listening to the rhetoric of the left and you would think the most important issues facing society were some sort of gender spectrum / trans issue stuff. The fixation on this and the efforts to sanitize language. Routinely pressuring cinema/media to reflect a feminist narrative has alienated a lot of people and energized the right. Along with the pedantic efforts to cancel shows using hashtags. E.g. #cancelcolbert #cancelSNL So for me a subset of the left offers the best hope for the future, but it has to find a way to deal with its own sort of tea party movement within it. Sethex fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 02:58
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TheNakedFantastic posted:Literally any leftist forum or twitter group I've seen has had the same markers of social maladjustment and alienation that some people seem to think is what's engendering the nu right. It makes sense that would be the case. There is a large section of the youth in America that are legitimately going to live their entire life never getting even close to the standard of living their parents had. Of course that is going to develop into competing theories on what caused it and how to fix it.
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Sep 30, 2016 03:00
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Sethex posted:Listening to the rhetoric of the left and you would think the most important issues facing society were some sort of gender spectrum / trans issue stuff. The fixation on this and the efforts to sanitize language pressure and cinema/media to reflect a feminist narrative has alienated a lot of people and energized the right. Along with the pedantic efforts to cancel shows using hashtags. E.g. #cancelcolbert #cancelSNL You're listening to a rather specific subset of the left.
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Sep 30, 2016 03:02
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BarbarianElephant posted:There were unwillingly single men back in the '50s, too. It's just that a nerdy bachelor in the '50s probably just holed up at home with his sci-fi paperbacks and stamp collection, wondering why Betty-Ann wouldn't go to the drive-in B-movie with him when she (the slut) was happy to go to the sock-hop with Earl on his motorbike (seethe.) The difference is there was no internet to act as a megaphone for the disgruntled. The socially isolated have always existed and previously left little record, for obvious reasons. My late grandpa was basically a proto-goon. He never dated a single woman until meeting my grandma in his late 30's and read/collected sci-fi/fantasy magazines (as well as cut out pin-up drawings of women to put near his desk). He even learned Japanese during WW2 (I have his textbooks, which are a pretty neat hand-me-down)! Getting sent to Yale to learn Japanese and never actually seeing combat* was a pretty sweet deal as far as WW2 participation goes. He wasn't remotely fat or ugly or anything, but was just socially awkward. *Kinda neat story related to this; the only time he ever had to actually do anything during the war (other than take Japanese classes) was when some detached Japanese ship or submarine (forget which) ended up surrendering, unaware that the war was already over. Apparently he and the other translators mostly just chatted with them about food and women. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 03:07
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TheNakedFantastic posted:A huge amount of the armchair psychologist garbage from this thread could apply in equal measure leftists "radicals" Radical groups seek out the people that society has failed to deliver its implied promises to. This is independent of the radical group's goal. Groups like the alt right tend to prey on individuals that have problems functioning in society and thus fail to achieve the norms of the society. Terrorist groups often do the same thing. Radical groups on the left seem more to seek individuals who aren't getting what is promised by society for reasons like race or class.
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