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(First post in D&D; I apologize if this has been exhaustively covered elsewhere.) I've been reading a lot of articles lately that take an extremely hostile tone towards the alt-right. Here's an example: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/palmer-luckey-alt-right I lean extremely far to the left, so I don't care for the right in either its establishment or alt forms, but what I'm confused by is that the vibe I'm getting is that I should have some sort of special hatred for the alt-right. I admit I don't pay close attention to people like Milo, but my impression was that the alt-right was basically the same as the establishment right except targeted at younger people and loosened up on some social issues like LGBT rights and cannabis usage. If that impression is correct, then from my perspective on the left, the alt-right seems like a strict improvement over the establishment right, and I'd expect left-leaning sites like Gawker and Vice to also view this as a degree of progress. The tone I'm sensing from them, though, suggests an increase in hostility if anything. I suppose this is probably just the natural consequence of an ultra-contentious election in which the Republican candidate is associated with the alt-right, but I wanted to make sure that my perception of the alt-right isn't wrong, and I figured that this is a good place to ask.
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Sep 24, 2016 22:26
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Are you by any chance white and middle class?
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Sep 24, 2016 22:42
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A lot of "alt right" could be relabelled "white supremacist" or "misogynist" without factual error. They generally are more open on some social issues, but usually as a pose to attempt to legitimize other racist or sexist attacks. For example, one of Milo's favorite tactics is to go on anti-Muslim rants with the pretext of complaining about, say, the Taliban's treatment of homosexuals, or the fact women can't drive in Saudi Arabia.
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Sep 24, 2016 22:48
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MiracleWhale posted:(First post in D&D; I apologize if this has been exhaustively covered elsewhere.) alt-right is better than alt-left because it takes you forward. alt-left is good for when you want to figure out what you did before, so typically historians and humanistics are alt-left- . the best is ctr-alt-delete though, cause then you get a fresh start.
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Sep 24, 2016 22:49
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When I see a word like "alt-right" explode onto the scene out of nowhere Im going to assume theres a think tank pushing it, just like with "homicide bomber" back during the Iraq War days. Trump is not doing as poorly among the youth as expected and those people were given a label. People among the youth of the left then proceed to fingerwag and publicly shame thier right leaning peers. Its politics as usual, the alt-right just seems more visible to us since the people who make it up are our peers in the greater social circle of the internet. As for the increase in hostility, well, its easy to yell and shout about hanging the Koch Brothers or what have you but theyre extremely powerful people that cannot be touched. They are insulated from controversy because theyre mind-bogglingly wealthy and powerful. On the other hand a bunch of idiots making memes on 4chan are a target that left-leaning internet users can actually dunk on, so of course people are gonna get more aggressive if it seems like you can "win"
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Sep 24, 2016 22:51
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The alt right largely consists, as far as I can tell, of shut ins, socially isolated people and other assorted foreveralones. I would say that the establishment right is definitely worse as they are an actual political force that has affected change. Maybe one day the alt right will actually dictate policy but until then they're largely just sound and fury.
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Sep 24, 2016 22:56
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:Are you by any chance white and middle class? You have me pegged but I'm not trolling, just trying to get context for what's going on here.
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Sep 24, 2016 23:05
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:A lot of "alt right" could be relabelled "white supremacist" or "misogynist" without factual error. They generally are more open on some social issues, but usually as a pose to attempt to legitimize other racist or sexist attacks. This is one thing I have noticed, for sure. I assumed that the approach was basically that they open up only on those social issues which have such overwhelming support that they have more to lose by opposing them.
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Sep 24, 2016 23:13
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MiracleWhale posted:This is one thing I have noticed, for sure. I assumed that the approach was basically that they open up only on those social issues which have such overwhelming support that they have more to lose by opposing them. Why are we assuming conspiratorial intent to these people? Maybe they are actually more open on these issues. Its entirely possible that these people are many "-ists" but also do not discriminate based on sexual orientation.
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Sep 24, 2016 23:19
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Meme Emulator posted:Why are we assuming conspiratorial intent to these people? Maybe they are actually more open on these issues. Its entirely possible that these people are many "-ists" but also do not discriminate based on sexual orientation. Mostly because they take opposite and contradictory positions in different contexts (for example, Milo is happy to encourage misogyny). Of course the explanation then is that it's "just trolling", etc. End of the day the "actual" position(s) of any given self-professed member of the alt-right is somewhat immaterial; they're either horrible people or posing as such.
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Sep 24, 2016 23:26
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MiracleWhale posted:This is one thing I have noticed, for sure. I assumed that the approach was basically that they open up only on those social issues which have such overwhelming support that they have more to lose by opposing them. Well yeah, you have answered your own question then. The Alt-right is worse because they are advocating white nationalism and co-opting legitimate social criticism in an attempt to justify their own racist and nationalist ideas. Like, who cares if someone advocates for marijuana rights if they also want all brown people deported. I also think to claim they support LGBT rights at all is laughable.
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Sep 24, 2016 23:29
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:A lot of "alt right" could be relabelled "white supremacist" or "misogynist" without factual error. They generally are more open on some social issues, but usually as a pose to attempt to legitimize other racist or sexist attacks. Both of those tactics were invented by liberals so its kind of tough to cry foul. The primary political objective of the alt-right seems to just be centered on freaking out the squares which I'd say they've broadly succeed at. Beyond that they're just boring old nationalists which is probably why they fight like cats and dogs with their millennial better halves--it's an incredibly low stakes and highly academic squabble between two sides who don't fundamentally disagree on anything. Even for an American presidential election the whole things feels staged.
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Sep 24, 2016 23:31
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spotlessd posted:Both of those tactics were invented by liberals so its kind of tough to cry foul. oh please go on quote:Beyond that they're just boring old nationalists which is probably why they fight like cats and dogs with their millennial better halves--it's an incredibly low stakes and highly academic squabble between two sides who don't fundamentally disagree on anything. I would question calling the resurgence of racial violence and open calls for mass deportation and literal camps a "low stakes squabble"
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Sep 24, 2016 23:34
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Meme Emulator posted:Why are we assuming conspiratorial intent to these people? Maybe they are actually more open on these issues. Its entirely possible that these people are many "-ists" but also do not discriminate based on sexual orientation. An alternate way to look at it would be that, rather than there being any conspiratorial intent, the people selected as the mouthpieces of a movement kinda embody its zeitgeist. So it's less about people like Milo being insincere in their weird combination of progressive and regressive beliefs and more that the progressive beliefs they do hold are the ones that have such overwhelming support in society that even the socially conservative are being converted. That said, I do think there's calculation happening too at least in the cases of Milo and Trump because they obviously delight in being professional trolls.
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Sep 24, 2016 23:36
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Ddraig posted:The alt right largely consists, as far as I can tell, of shut ins, socially isolated people and other assorted foreveralones. Fair point. I'd argue that they are a growing demographic and are starting to influence politics in meaningful ways -- Trump, this Oculus Rift guy, etc. -- but there's a chicken and egg thing going on there; without Trump this stuff would be getting a lot less attention. You pose an interesting moral conundrum though. I'm not sure if a shitposting David Duke racist bigot is a "worse" person than the always polite Paul Ryan for example; I don't think Milo Yannopoulis has ever proposed legislation in Congress to abolish Medicaid and thus, in effect, murder hundreds of thousands of old people.
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Sep 24, 2016 23:38
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I would question calling the resurgence of racial violence and open calls for mass deportation and literal camps a "low stakes squabble" What resurgence of racial violence has been occurring lately outside of clashes between minorities and the police?
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Sep 24, 2016 23:39
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Like, who cares if someone advocates for marijuana rights if they also want all brown people deported. Sure, but if the establishment right is against cannabis rights and wants brown people deported, it seems like we have undeniably gained a tiny amount of ground, even though the positions of the alt-right are still absurdly horrible.
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Sep 24, 2016 23:40
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Meme Emulator posted:What resurgence of racial violence has been occurring lately outside of clashes between minorities and the police? Ask any Sikh you know. There has been a *dramatic* increase in hate crimes against them this year.
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Sep 24, 2016 23:40
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i'm not sure they're much worse to be honest. the GOP has been animated by white supremacy for 30 years now. hillary's campaign has certainly figured out by now that trying to paint non-Trump Rs as great guys who we should work with has not been a great success
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Sep 24, 2016 23:41
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Meme Emulator posted:What resurgence of racial violence has been occurring lately outside of clashes between minorities and the police? http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/18/us/politics/hate-crimes-american-muslims-rise.html
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Sep 24, 2016 23:42
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:You pose an interesting moral conundrum though. I'm not sure if a shitposting David Duke racist bigot is a "worse" person than the always polite Paul Ryan for example; I don't think Milo Yannopoulis has ever proposed legislation in Congress to abolish Medicaid and thus, in effect, murder hundreds of thousands of old people. This is the attitude that I just don't understand. I dont feel like theres a moral conundrum here at all, the "worse" person is the person with power who can follow through on thier plans, 100 percent of the time. Actions carry so much more weight than speech, especially in an era of mass media where every single person in the country can shout out thier opinions for the entire world to hear and also no longer relying on a curator like a network television company to pick and choose the opinions presented to them and only broadcast the ones the oligarchs agree with.
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Sep 24, 2016 23:45
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Meme Emulator posted:Actions carry so much more weight than speech, Speech is what motivates action. Normalizing open white nationalism in discourse makes it more likely for white nationalism to actually happen in governance.
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Sep 24, 2016 23:46
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MiracleWhale posted:This is one thing I have noticed, for sure. I assumed that the approach was basically that they open up only on those social issues which have such overwhelming support that they have more to lose by opposing them. It could be that they are more Islamophobic than homophobic or misogynist. Ranting about women not being able to drive in Saudi Arabia is more about Saudi Arabia than about women. Driving is also a more basic thing than, say, concessions on how advertisements affect standards of beauty. Someone's prejudices don't have to all be equally intense to still be prejudices. Denying gays the right to marry is less homophobic than public execution, but it's still homophobia. It could also be a form of deflecting criticism. What, me, sexist, for the poo poo I said about Sarkeesian? But look at Saudi Arabia! They don't even let women drive!
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Sep 24, 2016 23:47
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Speech is what motivates action. Normalizing open white nationalism in discourse makes it more likely for white nationalism to actually happen in governance. This is the other attitude I have trouble understanding. How is the alt-right normalizing anything? White nationalism has been the status quo for a very, very long time. Thier existance is no more dangerous than the existence of white nationalism at any other point in US history. Did I miss something? Did we become a post-racial society when Obama was elected and now we are teetering on the brink of losing it again?
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Sep 24, 2016 23:50
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Mel Mudkiper posted:oh please go on Let me tell you about a little place called Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East, quote:I would question calling the resurgence of racial violence and open calls for mass deportation and literal camps a "low stakes squabble" Its low stakes for the people actually squabbling. Picture Molly Crabapple hanging out with Weev and how much sense that makes and you get an idea of what any of this actually amounts to for either of them.
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Sep 24, 2016 23:50
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As far as I can tell, alt-right just means non-religious rightists.
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Sep 24, 2016 23:50
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Speech is what motivates action. Normalizing open white nationalism in discourse makes it more likely for white nationalism to actually happen in governance. quote:Reagan also trumpeted his racial appeals in blasts against welfare cheats. On the stump, Reagan repeatedly invoked a story of a “Chicago welfare queen” with “eighty names, thirty addresses, [and] twelve Social Security cards [who] is collecting veteran’s benefits on four non-existing deceased husbands. She’s got Medicaid, getting food stamps, and she is collecting welfare under each of her names. Her tax-free cash income is over $150,000.” Often, Reagan placed his mythical welfare queen behind the wheel of a Cadillac, tooling around in flashy splendor. Beyond propagating the stereotypical image of a lazy, larcenous black woman ripping off society’s generosity without remorse, Reagan also implied It's frankly pathetic and gross watching elite liberals try to rehabilitate the pre-Trump GOP
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Sep 24, 2016 23:52
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icantfindaname posted:i'm not sure they're much worse to be honest. the GOP has been animated by white supremacy for 30 years now. hillary's campaign has certainly figured out by now that trying to paint non-Trump Rs as great guys who we should work with has not been a great success Well there's also religious fundamentalism, who are usually far less racial and have been very open to working with black and hispanic churches in the past to stop stuff like gay marriage
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Sep 24, 2016 23:52
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Meme Emulator posted:White nationalism has been the status quo for a very, very long time. Either we are working with very different definitions of white nationalism or very different interpretations of American governance icantfindaname posted:It's frankly pathetic and gross watching elite liberals try to rehabilitate the pre-Trump GOP institutionalized racism and white nationalism are not synonyms
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Sep 24, 2016 23:53
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Mange Mite posted:Well there's also religious fundamentalism, who are usually far less racial and have been very open to working with black and hispanic churches in the past to stop stuff like gay marriage white southern fundamentalists: Definitely Not Racist. please consider the large number of black and hispanic people we closely associate as being part of the GOP and the fundie evangelical movement icantfindaname posted:It's frankly pathetic and gross watching elite liberals try to rehabilitate the pre-Trump GOP icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Sep 24, 2016 |
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Sep 24, 2016 23:54
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Meme Emulator posted:This is the attitude that I just don't understand. I dont feel like theres a moral conundrum here at all, the "worse" person is the person with power who can follow through on thier plans, 100 percent of the time. Actions carry so much more weight than speech, especially in an era of mass media where every single person in the country can shout out thier opinions for the entire world to hear and also no longer relying on a curator like a network television company to pick and choose the opinions presented to them and only broadcast the ones the oligarchs agree with. Well, I'm not saying you're wrong. You've got a strong argument. For one perspective, though, it might depend on whether we're arguing about "worse for the country" or "worse individual people morally." For the latter calculation, intent matters. An intentional deliberate bigot throwing gasoline and a lit match onto a Sikh in a turban is at least arguably morally worse than Paul Ryan proposing legislation that will indirectly ] kill a bunch of old people through lack of medical care, especially if Ryan honestly believes that the legislation he's proposing will help people by encouraging the free market.
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Sep 24, 2016 23:55
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I think saying the alt-right is codifying engrained racism into a political ideology that is dangerously nationalistic is not trying to rehabilitate the old GOP or deny that the old GOP have been explicitly creating and profiting from racism for generations.
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Sep 24, 2016 23:57
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Mel Mudkiper posted:institutionalized racism and white nationalism are not synonyms Which of those do you think giving rally speeches about strapping young bucks stealing your hard-earned tax dollars counts as? Mel Mudkiper posted:I think saying the alt-right is codifying engrained racism into a political ideology that is dangerously nationalistic is not trying to rehabilitate the old GOP or deny that the old GOP have been explicitly creating and profiting from racism for generations. You're 40 years late dude. Nothing in the alt-right platform hasn't been floating around the GOP base for decades. The only difference is they're dropping the plausible deniability scheme icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Sep 25, 2016 |
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Sep 24, 2016 23:57
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Mel Mudkiper posted:http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/18/us/politics/hate-crimes-american-muslims-rise.html Yeah. It's important to remember that this kind of hate-spewing we're seeing right now is not "just trolling" etc. It actually gets people killed.
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Sep 25, 2016 00:00
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Either we are working with very different definitions of white nationalism or very different interpretations of American governance Ive been out of the internet arguing game for a while and slipped up, I meant supremacy and institutionalized racism.
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Sep 25, 2016 00:00
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icantfindaname posted:Which of those do you think giving rally speeches about strapping young bucks stealing your hard-earned tax dollars counts as? How does that count as white nationalism? White nationalism is about the complete purgation of all races except for whites in the bid to create a society constructed solely for the glorification and protection of the state as an institution. Fostering racial prejudice to maintain a system of economic segregation is indefensible and unquestionably unethical but its not white nationalism and its not "rehabilitating" the old GOP to say there is a difference.
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Sep 25, 2016 00:01
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If I were running Hillary Clinton's campaign I would do everything I could to get the voter to associate Donald Trump with 4chan, Stormfront, etc. I've spent some time on /pol/ in the past few years and they are some of the worst people in existence.
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Sep 25, 2016 00:01
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Meme Emulator posted:Ive been out of the internet arguing game for a while and slipped up, I meant supremacy and institutionalized racism. Well yeah then I totally agree with you there. The GOP (and the US at large) has always been about white supremacy and institutionalized racism what scares me about the alt-right is how they are codifying it into explicit white nationalism.
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Sep 25, 2016 00:02
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This seems to be the point where the right wing, once again, admits that they're interested in fascism or whatever label you'd like for brutal, warmongering authoritarianism. They hate foreigners, they hate minorities, they hate the Jews, and they want to go to war in the name of race and nationalism. This happened about a century ago and now it's happening again. But with dank memes instead of Hugo Boss uniforms. If the Hitler Youth had the internet, this is what they'd look like.
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Sep 25, 2016 00:03
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Doredrin posted:If I were running Hillary Clinton's campaign I would do everything I could to get the voter to associate Donald Trump with 4chan, Stormfront, etc. I've spent some time on /pol/ in the past few years and they are some of the worst people in existence. Okay but won't you feel kind of foolish when he wins
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Sep 25, 2016 00:03
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