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Bob le Moche posted:All the candidates are bad *because* everyone just keeps voting for the lesser evil. They have no incentive to be anything else. How is this not super obvious to everyone??? All the candidates are bad because progressives sit at home and whine about how there aren't any good candidates, and also because evil people make up the majority of the voters in this country. Candidates don't spring forth, fully-formed, from a hell-womb in the depths beneath Washington D.C.
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Oct 6, 2016 01:52
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the trump tutelage posted:There's a big difference between "perfect is the enemy of the good" and "Hillary is the enemy of the good". If her only flaw was that she was imperfect then her approval ratings would be a lot higher That's probably more to do with the republican machine pushing to destroy her for about 20 years now. Maybe we REALLY do need more 24/7 coverage of more Bengazi hearings.
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Oct 6, 2016 01:53
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the trump tutelage posted:You can stay home or you can deliberately spoil your ballot. Your vote is an endorsement. What is the point of letting the world burn just so you can go "Well at least I didn't vote for it"
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Oct 6, 2016 01:54
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Bob le Moche posted:All the candidates are bad *because* everyone just keeps voting for the lesser evil. They have no incentive to be anything else. How is this not super obvious to everyone??? Yeah I saw that Simpsons episode too.
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Oct 6, 2016 01:55
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Main Paineframe posted:All the candidates are bad because progressives sit at home and whine about how there aren't any good candidates, and also because evil people make up the majority of the voters in this country. Candidates don't spring forth, fully-formed, from a hell-womb in the depths beneath Washington D.C. Actually that's how we got George Bush Jr
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Oct 6, 2016 01:56
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HorseLord posted:what i like about this thread is how it confirmed my long term suspicions that the democrats are a neocon party now Tell me about all these wars started by Democratic leadership.  Hillary being too hawkish is a valid complaint, I don't like a lot of her foreign policy. That said, lol, Trump. Wouldn't be the first time I've bought back this avatar. VVV Eifert Posting fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Oct 6, 2016 |
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Oct 6, 2016 01:56
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Eifert Posting posted:Tell me about all these wars started by Democratic leadership. careful bro I like your avatar
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Oct 6, 2016 01:58
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J Corp posted:I have a question for the pro-Hillary crowd:
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Oct 6, 2016 01:58
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Ah yes, Trump, the subject of this thread.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:00
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Mel Mudkiper posted:What is the point of letting the world burn just so you can go "Well at least I didn't vote for it" Because the alternative is a decision about the number of logs you're putting on the fire, not between stoking it or smothering it.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:00
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Bob le Moche posted:Sorry but the Democratic Party has not been fighting for progress. Social movements have been fighting for progress and pressuring the Democrats into giving away concessions. Again, don't get your democracy backwards. Yeah, Democratic representatives like John Lewis have to be dragged kicking and screaming into supporting progressive causes.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:01
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the trump tutelage posted:Because the alternative is a decision about the number of logs you're putting on the fire, not between stoking it or smothering it. If your actions can lessen harm in any way, inaction is not virtuous
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Oct 6, 2016 02:01
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Mel Mudkiper posted:What is the point of letting the world burn just so you can go "Well at least I didn't vote for it" On that note, I thought this article was pretty well-written and talks about why that line of thinking is really loving stupid, or at least really really self-serving.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:05
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Mel Mudkiper posted:If your actions can lessen harm in any way, inaction is not virtuous But....me? Me! ME!!! Anything to make myself feel better is what I need regardless of lack of self reflection, good will, or knowledge of consequences.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:05
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Eifert Posting posted:Tell me about all these wars started by Democratic leadership. The Vietnam war The infinite drone wars in the middle east and africa, including bombing pharmaceutical plants in sudan etc The invasion of Cuba The internal war against civil rights and anticapitalist movements in the 60s The proxy war in Congo, propping up Paul Kagame and leading to millions dead in Rwanda The proxy war in Indonesia, arming the fascists and enabling genocide The colonial massacre of native americans And much more violence under democratic leadership in Honduras, Mexico, Libya, AFRICOM, the Cold War, etc etc The only time nuclear weapons were ever used against civilian populations was under a democratic president... twice
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Oct 6, 2016 02:09
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The other issue I have with "we don't get real candidates who represent real progressive values" is that radical leftists think somehow the majority of the nation actually agrees with their specific sense of global and political morality, despite the fact most leftists cannot even agree amongst themselves There is this weird delusion that "real" progressiveness is being repressed by a two party system. Its like the leftists and communists in Iran who thought removing the Shaw would lead to the people creating a modern progressive democracy. They never seem to get that the silent majority is probably much worse than the status quo, not better.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:11
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^^^ This poo poo has been happening since at least the French Revolution. Every Progressive assumes the seething multitudes can be won over by their superior intellect in a violent movement but democracy is the thing holding them back. Progress is won in degrees through peace and you aren't the first person with pretty speaches in your head and accelerationist ambitions. Bob le Moche posted:The Vietnam war So a whole bunch of poo poo before the Southern Strategy flipped the parties and a whole bunch of limited engagements? Eifert Posting fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Oct 6, 2016 |
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Oct 6, 2016 02:12
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Eifert Posting posted:So a whole bunch of poo poo before the Southern Strategy flipped the parties and a whole bunch of limited engagements? Those engagements are not "limited" for the people at the receiving end of them
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Oct 6, 2016 02:14
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Mel Mudkiper posted:The other issue I have with "we don't get real candidates who represent real progressive values" is that radical leftists think somehow the majority of the nation actually agrees with their specific sense of global and political morality, despite the fact most leftists cannot even agree amongst themselves And this is a defence of American democracy because... I mean if the silent majority is actually terrible, then why should that mean A) they'll vote for Hillary and B) that'll be a good thing? Eifert Posting posted:So a whole bunch of poo poo before the Southern Strategy flipped the parties and a whole bunch of limited engagements? This is weaksauce and you know it. The mere idea of "limited engagements" is entrenched in asymmetric American foreign policy where people outside your borders are worth infinitely less compared to your own citizens, becoming effectively unpeople, mere numbers on a spreadsheet and it's sickening to see attempts to rationalise it. TomViolence fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Oct 6, 2016 |
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Oct 6, 2016 02:14
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Did you guys know that Abraham Lincoln was a Republican? The guy freed the slaves! He's a clear indicator of what our modern republican party stands for.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:16
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Bob le Moche posted:Those engagements are not "limited" for the people at the receiving end of them They are awfully limited compared to the poo poo that happened thanks in no small part to American third parties spoiling a vote in 2000.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:17
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Lemming posted:Yeah, Democratic representatives like John Lewis have to be dragged kicking and screaming into supporting progressive causes. I don't know what to tell you, it's cool that you have faith in your government dads to do what's best for you but I care about politics too much to just leave it to politicians and limit my involvement to casting one vote every 4 years
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Oct 6, 2016 02:18
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TomViolence posted:And this is a defence of American democracy because... A. Its not a defense of American democracy? Its a critique of the belief American democracy is repressing progressivism B. Because history has proven time and time again that large swarths of angry and disenfranchised people are more willing to buy into easy and dangerous answers like Nationalism than they are to buy into progressive ideas. The idea that if we destabilize the status quo we will somehow push America in a better direction is wishful thinking. Reshuffling the deck of a stable political system is far more likely to push that country backwards than it is going to push that country forwards. Progressive reform is more likely to come slowly in a stable democracy than it is to become quickly in a destabilized system.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:18
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Bob le Moche posted:I don't know what to tell you, it's cool that you have faith in your government dads to do what's best for you but I care about politics too much to just leave it to politicians and limit my involvement to casting one vote every 4 years This is just a non sequitur. Where did I say people should only vote in presidential elections, like you're implying here?
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Oct 6, 2016 02:21
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Bill Clinton committed the genocide of 500,000 Iraqi Children https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8 it was worth it
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Oct 6, 2016 02:22
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I've yet to meet an accelerationist who wasn't a member of the educated white male middle class. There hasn't been a Republican presidential candidate in 30 years that was less hawkish than the Democrat and you loving know it. Hillary's foreign policy is the number one reason I have any hesitancy at all about voting for her, but the only other option's much worse and I will not be complicit in his foreign or domestic policy being implemented.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:25
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Eifert Posting posted:I've yet to meet an accelerationist who wasn't a member of the educated white male middle class. There hasn't been a Republican presidential candidate in 30 years that was less hawkish than the Democrat and you loving know it. I didn't see anyone in this thread advocating for accelerationism or voting for the republicans. The whole history of the southern strategy switch is an interesting thing to bring up though. Because I think it's important to be informed and realize that political parties exist only to be elected, that they can be made to change, and that unwavering loyalty to one is probably a bad idea
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Oct 6, 2016 02:28
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Bob le Moche posted:I didn't see anyone in this thread advocating for accelerationism or voting for the republicans. I don't see anyone advocating unwavering loyalty to one party either
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Oct 6, 2016 02:29
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Eifert Posting posted:I've yet to meet an accelerationist who wasn't a member of the educated white male middle class. There hasn't been a Republican presidential candidate in 30 years that was less hawkish than the Democrat and you loving know it. Criticism of Hillary is not an endorsement of Trump or the republican party.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:30
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TomViolence posted:Criticism of Hillary is not an endorsement of Trump or the republican party. Gary Johnson will save us.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:32
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TomViolence posted:Criticism of Hillary is not an endorsement of Trump or the republican party. Absolutely. As long as you're voting for her. Lol the Panthers, do you know what the word means? VVVVV Eifert Posting fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Oct 6, 2016 |
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Oct 6, 2016 02:39
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Buckwheat Sings posted:That's probably more to do with the republican machine pushing to destroy her for about 20 years now. Maybe we REALLY do need more 24/7 coverage of more Bengazi hearings. Is this supposed to be a defense? That her opponents are successful at persuading people of distrusting her? Mel Mudkiper posted:If your actions can lessen harm in any way, inaction is not virtuous Eifert Posting posted:I've yet to meet an accelerationist who wasn't a member of the educated white male middle class.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:41
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the trump tutelage posted:Stretched out over any kind of time frame, US politics-as-usual is probably the greater harm. Explain how a destabilized US is better off in the long term for the world than a stable one
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Oct 6, 2016 02:44
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People are dumb enough to believe the Republican party's lies, better not vote for Hillary.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:45
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Eifert Posting posted:Absolutely. As long as you're voting for her. I can't, but since her policies will reverberate around the world with the force and significance of a gunshot I still consider my opinion worth hearing, if not listening to. Dubya and Barry have done a hell of a lot to destroy any faith the world at large has in America and I don't see Another Clinton or, god forbid, Trump doing much better. The future should not be an American boot stomping on every human face it can find forever and until its leaders are made properly accountable that's the way it's probably gonna be.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:45
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Lemming posted:I completely agree there are things that Democrats need to do better on. The best way to push for change there is to get them into power so they can be pushed leftwards in primaries, like with Bernie, which gets more progressive candidates into power. loving off and going third party as an alternative gives more relative power to Republican politicians, which makes progress harder. You're right, we can have progress next year. Main Paineframe posted:But what are you punishing her and the DNC for? What misconduct did they commit? You said you hate Hillary because the DNC did bad things. What bad things did they do? I never said I hated Hillary. How did you come to that conclusion? "If I'm not with you I'm against you" is an interesting way to think. The DNC is supposed to not show favoritism. It did. Now I am. Bob le Moche posted:Sorry but the Democratic Party has not been fighting for progress. Social movements have been fighting for progress and pressuring the Democrats into giving away concessions. Again, don't get your democracy backwards. Democrats are not Progressives, they're actually "Not Republicans," you're right. Mel Mudkiper posted:What is the point of letting the world burn just so you can go "Well at least I didn't vote for it" We will all hang together, or separately. Eifert Posting posted:They are awfully limited compared to the poo poo that happened thanks in no small part to American third parties spoiling a vote in 2000. About half of eligible voters didn't vote. This is a nonsense argument. TomViolence posted:Criticism of Hillary is not an endorsement of Trump or the republican party. To some people it is I guess? Polygynous posted:Gary Johnson will save us. He just kind of dropped out, though?
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Oct 6, 2016 02:46
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Mel Mudkiper posted:B. Because history has proven time and time again that large swarths of angry and disenfranchised people are more willing to buy into easy and dangerous answers like Nationalism than they are to buy into progressive ideas. Bernie Sanders actually showed better chances against Trump than Hillary did in the polls. The large swarths of angry disenfranchised people want socialism, not barbarism. Fascism is what happens when you let the "moderate" party of liberal capitalists completely suppress any and all leftist alternatives to it. Hitler was not elected, he was appointed chancellor by a supposedly moderate and pragmatic government.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:47
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TomViolence posted:Criticism of Hillary is not an endorsement of Trump or the republican party. This is not a quote from page 1.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:47
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The Republicans and Democrats both agree with the American empire. Bill Clinton killed 500,000 iraqi children. HELLO? Ya'll seem to be ignoring this. Also the link I posted which has quotes from current US Servicemen talking about how the US is training Jihadis in Syria.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:50
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TomViolence posted:The future should not be an American boot stomping on every human face it can find forever and until its leaders are made properly accountable that's the way it's probably gonna be. Yes, but even then, posit a future in which its not someone's boot. As I said before and you never responded to, nations are fundamentally unethical. The very concept of the nation is an unethical conceit. The US is only unethical in its power because it has power. Any nation put into the position of a global superpower would be as bad as us, if not worse, because it is the nature of nations to exploit those weaker than themselves. You cannot simply remove America from the equation of global power and expect a better world because someone else will just fill that vacuum and considering the nations likely to fill that void, I would not be thrilled with the replacement. The best way to make the world better is to push the established power bases as far left as you can. However, that is not going to happen through any sort of radical event. You push for the best choice in the primary, and then pick the best remaining choice in the national election. It's not a great solution, but I have not seen a pragmatic solution that is better.
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Oct 6, 2016 02:50
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