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The point is that all countries point at the crimes of other countries to distract from their own crimes. In any case, you ought to be more concerned with your own countries crimes, because they're the ones that you can do the most about theoretically.
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Oct 22, 2016 19:47
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Sinteres posted:Great job Turkey, great job Obama Administration for seeming not to give a poo poo about this operation. I assume Turkey wants to try to let the FSA handle it themselves before they have to go in directly, I assume that will eventually happen though. Rated PG-34 posted:The point is that all countries point at the crimes of other countries to distract from their own crimes. In any case, you ought to be more concerned with your own countries crimes, because they're the ones that you can do the most about theoretically. Or you just want to see your enemies crushed and don't really care unless a good narrative comes out of it.
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Oct 22, 2016 20:14
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loving sleepwalkers.
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Oct 22, 2016 20:25
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So the only crimes worth pursuing justice on are American ones?
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Oct 22, 2016 20:28
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SoggyBobcat posted:So the only crimes worth pursuing justice on are American ones? It's a lot easier to stop committing our crimes than to force other countries to stop committing theirs.
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Oct 22, 2016 20:31
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Sinteres posted:It's a lot easier to stop committing our crimes than to force other countries to stop committing theirs. That might be true if the U.S. wasn't the premier world power culturally, economically, and militarily.
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Oct 22, 2016 20:35
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Rated PG-34 posted:Here's an experiment: do a find/replace of America with Russia. I'd be surprised if you still feel that it's a balanced piece of journalism. A journalist's job is to write what they know about the situation. You really think that once an American official blames something on ineptitude rather than malice, all that's required is to ask them for detailed proof? In the first case they probably don't even know. Oh, but maybe the reporter should've gone to Saudi Arabia. Maybe a quick interview with each of the hundreds of fighter pilots involved in the airstrikes? Perhaps the King of Saudi Arabia would like to pop on over to the Economist regional office and give an explanation? And how would it make sense to switch the countries around? If I switched America into an article about Haiti, yes it would look like a lovely article because it wouldn't make any sense. The Russia piece is opinion, so it's biased by definition. And your rhetorical suggestions seem more designed to muddy the waters than explain why it's bad journalism. Kinda stretching.
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Oct 22, 2016 20:35
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Plus all it takes to destabilize or resist a lot of the other examples is a gentle push Unless trump doesn't concede this year and his groups of armed white people fated to die of heart disease in a decade clamber out of their sizzlers hop on their rascal scooters and start a revolt
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Oct 22, 2016 20:38
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Al-Saqr posted:Thank gently caress, looks like turkey is on its way to do the right thing and help lift the siege on Aleppo after all. Never happening, get ready to lose, which is the right thing, and the real thing. We get to clear out Turkish influence at the same time as we do Saudi. Erdogan is picking a fight with Iraq, Syria, Iran, Russia and the US will not support them if they try to go against Russia. Turkey is very aware they are in trouble, they do not have any friends around them as Iran stationed a warship in Baku Azerbaijan recently. Czer fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Oct 22, 2016 |
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Oct 22, 2016 20:45
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SoggyBobcat posted:That might be true if the U.S. wasn't the premier world power culturally, economically, and militarily. Oh I didn't realize the US is pretty loving strong, that changes everything.
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Oct 22, 2016 20:46
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I guess the solution, which is already happening, is the world simply becomes more multi-polar and DC/Beijing/New Delhi/Moscow can blame each other for abuses while never addressing their own crimes. I expect the result is going to be a lot of screaming matches on social media/forums/youtube comments.
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Oct 22, 2016 20:49
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Play posted:A journalist's job is to write what they know about the situation. You really think that once an American official blames something on ineptitude rather than malice, all that's required is to ask them for detailed proof? In the first case they probably don't even know. Oh, but maybe the reporter should've gone to Saudi Arabia. Maybe a quick interview with each of the hundreds of fighter pilots involved in the airstrikes? Perhaps the King of Saudi Arabia would like to pop on over to the Economist regional office and give an explanation? If the American officials can't provide any evidence, then what's the point of echoing their sentiment? Without evidence backing their claim, the official can't be taken as a credible source. Too often, the word of American officials is taken as gospel, despite the obvious bias. If it was a Russian official making the same claim, you would want proof and the journalist would ask for proof.
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Oct 22, 2016 20:49
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Cat Mattress posted:Turkey is going to go all the way to Aleppo, murder everyone in Sheik Maqsoud, then turn back and go back home. 1) that wont happen, because Turkey isn't Assad. 2) To me what matters is that a definitive corridor is established for the rebels to begin projecting and saving Aleppo. Turkey doesn't need to do the fighting itself, all it has to do clear the way for the rebels. Also, I don't give a drat about the SDF, if they're not going to save the people of Aleppo then they can gently caress off elsewhere and concentrate on their job of fighting ISIS. Anyone who is not aiding lifting the siege should get the gently caress out of the way. Syrian Democratic forces my rear end, their only prescribed job is to fight ISIS and help establish a fait accompli of an ethno-centric tribal fiefdom. If there's a bunch of SDF positions between turkey, the rebels and Aleppo, smash the gently caress out of them and clear the way for the tanks and trucks with supplies to save the city, if the SDF are not going to fight Assad in the places that matter then clear the gently caress out and let the people who want to save kids like Omran do their jobs. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Oct 22, 2016 |
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Oct 22, 2016 21:10
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Al-Saqr posted:1) that wont happen, because Turkey isn't Assad. Yes, this is all good and just because Kurds don't have children.
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Oct 22, 2016 21:24
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:Yes, this is all good and just because Kurds don't have children. how the hell did you conclude that from everything I wrote. At no point did I say that. I said that if there's any SDF military positions between you and saving Aleppo, and the SDF wont get out of the way or wont help with saving Aleppo, then sorry, you have full permission to drive right through them to get to Aleppo. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Oct 22, 2016 |
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Oct 22, 2016 21:28
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I'm pretty sure I win the prize for most Kurd blood ITT (lemme know if there's a picture of you in preschool wearing authentic kurdish nomadic garb HUH HUH) and I gotta say Westerners fetishizing Kurds over all other brown people involved because, I assume, they think they're all like...socialist zoroastrians...it's getting pretty tired. I can't really blame the Kurds for encouraging it though.
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Oct 22, 2016 21:34
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Al-Saqr posted:how the hell did you conclude that from everything I wrote. At no point did I say that. I said that if there's any SDF military positions between you and saving Aleppo, and the SDF wont get out of the way or wont help with saving Aleppo, then sorry, you have full permission to drive right through them to get to Aleppo. Except no you don't. You can't attack a third party who's in the way of your foreign policy aims. I mean, you can justify it in a realist sense of global interactions, but not in any sort of moral sense.
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Oct 22, 2016 21:40
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:Except no you don't. You can't attack a third party who's in the way of your foreign policy aims. I mean, you can justify it in a realist sense of global interactions, but not in any sort of moral sense. Lol. "Foreign policy aims." gently caress it. Let everyone in East Aleppo die then.
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Oct 22, 2016 21:46
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:Except no you don't. You can't attack a third party who's in the way of your foreign policy aims. I mean, you can justify it in a realist sense of global interactions, but not in any sort of moral sense. Listen, I agree, turkey is playing a dirty game, but in this case when it comes to Aleppo, It's not a foreign policy aim it's a human life and human rights aim, Aleppo is about to get genocided, if you're not helping stopping it and if you're going to try and stop people from stopping it, then you're not a third party but Youre actively helping the side doing the genociding, either step aside or get hosed. Guess what, if your foreign policy is to save an entire city of people from getting murdered by another group whose foreign policy is to gas and burn them to submission, then you're in in the right and should do what it takes to save them, given that there's no way left to diplomatically talk them down from being fascist mass murderers. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Oct 22, 2016 |
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Oct 22, 2016 21:47
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Middle East Thread of Despair : either step aside or get hosed
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Oct 22, 2016 21:48
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:Except no you don't. You can't attack a third party who's in the way of your foreign policy aims. I mean, you can justify it in a realist sense of global interactions, but not in any sort of moral sense. That said in the sense of policy aims, then you get back into the issue pushing the Kurds towards Russia/Iran if only in the name of survival. Also, the US couldn't be in a more awkward position at this point since it is on the edge of a proxy war with a NATO member. How well can a Leopard 2 stand against TOWs? We know by now that M60A3s don't.
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Oct 22, 2016 21:49
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It's going to be interesting to compare census data before and after this nightmare war is over and see how much it hosed the country forever, and how it changed the ethno-religious distribution 
Frionnel fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Oct 22, 2016 |
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Oct 22, 2016 21:53
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Al-Saqr posted:Listen, I agree, turkey is playing a dirty game, but in this case when it comes to Aleppo, It's not a foreign policy aim it's a human life and human rights aim, Aleppo is about to get genocided, if you're not helping stopping it and if you're going to try and stop people from stopping it, then you're not a third party but Youre actively helping the side doing the genociding, either step aside or get hosed. Turkey, noted anti-genocide actor on the world stage
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Oct 22, 2016 21:53
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VikingSkull posted:Turkey, noted anti-genocide actor on the world stage Al-Qaeda lifted the siege on Aleppo last time.
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Oct 22, 2016 21:53
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What's the timetable with FSA/Turkey reaching Aleppo? Is there a sense of when they could be pushing against SAA? Basically, at what point if they don't get there do we start to think that it's just posturing?
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Oct 22, 2016 21:54
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Al-Saqr posted:Listen, I agree, turkey is playing a dirty game, but in this case when it comes to Aleppo, It's not a foreign policy aim it's a human life and human rights aim, Aleppo is about to get genocided, if you're not helping stopping it and if you're going to try and stop people from stopping it, then you're not a third party but Youre actively helping the side doing the genociding, either step aside or get hosed. The Kurds have to toe a precarious political line between American and Russian interests if they want to not get annexed and brutalised by one of many hostile neighbours. Even giving the Turkish military access would break that precarious balance. Even that being said, if I thought the Turks were legitimately going to successfully lift the siege of Aleppo, I may even agree with you then. What is happening to the city because of Assad's reign of terror is a despicable atrocity against human dignity and I have no argument with you there. I just don't see the Turkish military directly taking action against the SAA, which is what would be needed to prevent the actual siege from collapsing. Meanwhile, if Erdogan had continued with his original plan of diplomacy with the PKK/PYD in order to secure political stability in the north, we could be looking at a situation much more favourable to the end of alleviating the siege. VikingSkull posted:Turkey, noted anti-genocide actor on the world stage Nobody is claiming that Turkey is firmly against human rights abuses, but Stalin did prevent atrocities by taking out the Nazi regime.
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Oct 22, 2016 21:56
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:I just don't see the Turkish military directly taking action against the SAA, which is what would be needed to prevent the actual siege from collapsing. I think what will happen (at least what I hope will happen) in the end is that turkey will simply provide a corridor for the rebels to carry the fight themselves and give them every weapon they can to do so. The real test will be if they can fight on prevent the city from collapsing before Hillary Clinton takes office, she's well on record as being a crazy person and wanting to throw the book at the Russians and SAA, so MAYBE if she takes office the coffers of guns and weapons will flow to the rebels. I'm not holding out hope for that. But is a theory. Still it's better to prevent the city from collapsing for now. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Oct 22, 2016 |
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Oct 22, 2016 22:04
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:Nobody is claiming that Turkey is firmly against human rights abuses, but Stalin did prevent atrocities by taking out the Nazi regime. After the Nazis attacked him. Before that he and Hitler gobbled up Poland. There's still a decent chance Turkey's going to abandon the rebels once they kill all the Kurds they want to kill; it wasn't that long ago that Turkey was talking about how it was concerned about a potential conflict between the US and Russia.
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Oct 22, 2016 22:05
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:Nobody is claiming that Turkey is firmly against human rights abuses, but Stalin did prevent atrocities by taking out the Nazi regime. Al-Saqr said it was firmly a human rights issue, which is why I said that. Hardly any nation of power has a clean history. I will say, though, that perhaps Stalin's push to Germany may not have been the best example for you to choose.
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Oct 22, 2016 22:05
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Frionnel posted:It's going to be interesting to compare census data before and after this nightmare war is over and see how much it hosed the country forever, and how it changed the ethno-religious distribution They're probably going to make censuses illegal like they did after the Lebanese Civil War
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Oct 22, 2016 22:45
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Rated PG-34 posted:Maybe it's because of how the House of Cards system reflects more China's system where there's a lot of individual corruption vs. the western system which is corrupt as a whole.  How in God's name do you THINK a patronage network works?
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Oct 23, 2016 01:06
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In reality there would be a mob of lobbyists and think-tank advisers giving Frank marching orders every step of the way. That said, that version would hit maybe a little too close to home.
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Oct 23, 2016 01:09
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GreyjoyBastard posted:
Certainly, the Chinese system is also corrupt as a whole, but there's probably lot more wiggle room for individual corruption.
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Oct 23, 2016 01:20
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https://twitter.com/BBCWorld/status/790039420980396036 The ban doesn't apply to Kurdistan, so the KRG just got a big boost in tourism.
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Oct 23, 2016 07:04
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fishmech posted:Plenty of confused people are worried about things that never happened, so saying you were worried about a thing that literally never happened doesn't say anything. But there is no point discussing this further, not really ME In other news Kurds are trying to picture FSA = ISIS (not sure how true this is) https://twitter.com/SlemaniPost_/status/789792377443610624 and that if ISIS withdrawn from Dabiq it's because it's at "Turkey" order. Seems a bit of a stretch to me (even if I am convinced of Turkey's support of ISIS I don't think it's to the point of giving orders)
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Oct 23, 2016 08:32
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Al-Saqr posted:I think what will happen (at least what I hope will happen) in the end is that turkey will simply provide a corridor for the rebels to carry the fight themselves and give them every weapon they can to do so. The real test will be if they can fight on prevent the city from collapsing before Hillary Clinton takes office, she's well on record as being a crazy person and wanting to throw the book at the Russians and SAA, so MAYBE if she takes office the coffers of guns and weapons will flow to the rebels. I'm not holding out hope for that. But is a theory. Still it's better to prevent the city from collapsing for now. Well so far Turkey has done less against Assad than the SDF (who at least had a few random firefights), so I don't really understand why you would pin you hopes on Erdogan. So far he seems to be more interested in a triumphal in Mosul...
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Oct 23, 2016 08:54
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Friendly Humour posted:Well so far Turkey has done less against Assad than the SDF (who at least had a few random firefights), so I don't really understand why you would pin you hopes on Erdogan. So far he seems to be more interested in a triumphal in Mosul... Turkey has arguably been the biggest backer of forces fighting directly against Assad all along. If they establish a corridor to Aleppo you can bet they'll be pumping money and weapons into it to try and empower the forces fighting to break the siege. Whatever the reasoning that would be A Good Thing.
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Oct 23, 2016 09:25
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Volkerball posted:Turkey has arguably been the biggest backer of forces fighting directly against Assad all along. If they establish a corridor to Aleppo you can bet they'll be pumping money and weapons into it to try and empower the forces fighting to break the siege. Whatever the reasoning that would be A Good Thing. https://twitter.com/MahirZeynalov/status/789852002771734528
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Oct 23, 2016 11:15
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It's cool Erdogan is trying to reclaim territory the Ottoman Empire lost.
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Oct 23, 2016 11:39
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SA_Avenger posted:If you mean ISIS and FSA more recently then yes but not sure it's a good thing for Syria I mean for the hundreds of thousands of people trapped in besieged Aleppo by a force that wants to make it as painful for civilians as possible.
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Oct 23, 2016 11:49
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