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Gooble Rampling posted:It has been several small things that eventually added up to "obvious" to me. A "death by small cuts" if you will. Most of it involves editing choices and deliberately vague dialogue. That's kind of the opposite of how obviousness works. e: unless you're this guy 
McSpanky fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Nov 4, 2016 |
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Nov 4, 2016 05:00
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Maybe teddy is modeled after McPoyle
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Nov 4, 2016 05:02
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I also am considering what if even Logan was fake. Like, could westworld implant false memories (if you volunteered) to make it more exciting? What a vacation. I got a lil bit of black mirror s3 ep 2 runnin through my head while considering this.
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Nov 4, 2016 05:08
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:The scene with Maeve when she goes "outside" was pretty interesting, I thought. I didn't see any stars, or hear any outside noises at all, even wind? I rewound that a couple times because it looked so weird and motionless, but you can kinda see rock wall back there and she was probably in "livestock management" which is way underground in the facility map. 
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Nov 4, 2016 05:11
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KoRMaK posted:I also am considering what if even Logan was fake. Like, could westworld implant false memories (if you volunteered) to make it more exciting? What a vacation. The only thing that doesn't make sense to me about the "William = Man In Black" theory is, if the park is just starting out, how is Logan so jaded with everything already? I guess him being a host would explain that, as well as why the other guests are allowed to harm him.
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Nov 4, 2016 05:13
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When logan talks about the suicide of the partner, he doesn't say how long ago it happened does he? Or how long the park has been opened? MiB says if he wanted the moral of the story the guy he'd have to ask is underground as of 35 years ago. So maybe, McPoyle is expierincing the park as part of some sort of acquistion evlaution right after the suicide, at least during the parks infancy while its stock is plunging in the wake of the creative partners suicide. And since he was early, he got to expierience a very unique ride with Delores, so unique and interesting that they synthesized it and wrote it into her story. The McPoyle story - the one where you get so meta that you think a Host is experiencing something as real and true as you are, together. At one point I thought maybe mgmt wanted the bots for war, but now I dunno. McPoyle as MiB could just be a giant fan who is their best player and is constantly trying to chase the dragon of his first time.
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Nov 4, 2016 05:18
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little munchkin posted:The only thing that doesn't make sense to me about the "William = Man In Black" theory is, if the park is just starting out, how is Logan so jaded with everything already? I guess him being a host would explain that, as well as why the other guests are allowed to harm him. Eh, yea but lets not forget that on opening week of a game release people will beat the game in less than 72 hours. Even if the park is open for a week, you could spend that whole week there and be able to get over it/meta/jaded quickly. But, you raise a good point that I hadnt thought of about how logan is the one takin the majority of the hits between the two of them.
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Nov 4, 2016 05:21
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KoRMaK posted:There seems to be a class system on delos among the staff. The one repair guy tries to remind the other that he cant be a programmer, and that all he'll be is a butcher. The other guy also says they should have weeded him out at the embyro phase. Seems like a colorful way to talk about an interview process, but it left me wondering....  Why does any of this need to have a sci-fi reason?
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Nov 4, 2016 05:22
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:
I didnt say it does. It def doesn't. I thought maybe the butchers could be like clones or something. The embyro stage comment made me think they are hatching them or something as real humans to do the low tier work.
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Nov 4, 2016 05:23
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You don't need some Orwellian machinations to clone up a servant class. Just provide them with a double-wide trailer, a pathetic paycheck, a depressing life, a Cracker Barrel or Golden Corral down the road a spell, two brain cells between them, and your "cloning machines" will be happy to endlessly pump out failures-from-birth to fill out the slave class.
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Nov 4, 2016 05:36
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true but if you could make designer babies, you could make designer servant class. ones that are smart but also subservient - they'll never try to fight, rise up, or overthrow their shackles. unlike a trailer park with dumb hillbillies that just like destroying stuff. The "filtered out at the embyro stage" comment really got my attention because it seems innocuous but this show seems like one where they litter poo poo all around and even the small poo poo reveals something.
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Nov 4, 2016 05:41
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KoRMaK posted:true I think its going to turn out that all these little things are just throwaways to keep the forum nerds happy. Dr. Ford said it himself - you want to create stories where people notice details that they think are just for them. They are doing the same for us, to the extent that people are creating videos to prove that just because two characters haven't been seen in the same scene yet they must be separated by 30 years in the show, because reasons.
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Nov 4, 2016 05:47
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little munchkin posted:The only thing that doesn't make sense to me about the "William = Man In Black" theory is, if the park is just starting out, how is Logan so jaded with everything already? I guess him being a host would explain that, as well as why the other guests are allowed to harm him. There are a lot of subtle (non-definitive) cues that William has a connection to MiB, but it might just be a yin-yang narrative device. It's a bit off balance that we have Logan and MiB both fitting the yang to William's yin, both morally and aesthetically. MiB is obviously what Logan wishes he was, maybe what he'll become. There isn't another featured white hat guest, and William's compromising his ideals as things get more complicated. Dolores was handed a literal grey (brownish) hat, which she accepts, along with apparent autonomy. I'm not sold on either time-line theory, but it is weird that the Westworld logo is different in William's orientation. They're gonna make mistakes in continuity, or deliberately throw out red herrings, but that's a pretty big tip. It might be outright red herrings, but Bernard and Arnold have been connected by a lot of things. From what we know of Ford--isolated, morally vacant, jaded, god complex, hung up on a guy who died 30 years ago--it wouldn't be too far fetched for him to keep a copy of Arnold as a protege to constantly affirm his superiority. As a note, they really are playing up how tiny Elsie is compared to most of the hosts she interacts with. The actress is tiny--5'1"--but there have been a few scenes that seem to emphasise how easily she could be over-powered by a host. Her only power is in the verbal commands and her computer pad, but she feels secure enough to make fun of security for being armed. That's a set-up for some fun. Her relationship with Ashley (Hemsworth) is so casually adversarial that there's probably an interesting backstory, too.
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Nov 4, 2016 05:57
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But I love Elsie and I don't want anything bad to happen to her. 
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Nov 4, 2016 06:32
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I hope everyone gets along in the end 
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Nov 4, 2016 06:38
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KoRMaK posted:Also, shoutout to the orgy scene music: NIN something I can never have That was straight up dope. Pretty Hate Machine still awesome in the future
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Nov 4, 2016 06:49
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Leon Einstein posted:It can't take place on an actual planet or in nature, as there is zero weather variation. Don't ask me what it is though. I think the big difference with this and Lost is this has a clear idea where it's going. It seems very pre-plotted; no matter what ends up happening, it feels like it's controlled. Lost felt like somebody had a good pitch, and then immediately ran out of ideas and went "OH poo poo!" You can't have a show that's all, 100% about mysteries and keep piling them on and piling them on and not answering them. I really feel Battlestar Galactica went to pure and utter horseshit when they caught Lost disease; a clear good storyline suddenly kept piling on mystery after mystery and 90% of them had no resolution leading to a poo poo finale. Westworld thus far feels backwards constructed from that. Westworld's got some mysteries for the viewers, and some mystery for the characters, and thus far they've been in active pursuit of that. It doesn't feel like they're going "Hey look at this strange thing! It's quite interesting isn't it? Yeah uh whatever back to what we were doing." Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Nov 4, 2016 |
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Nov 4, 2016 09:47
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Im rewatching from the first and some things got to my attention: - I still think there's got to be some reality fuckery going on, despite the GPS beacon. Something got to explain the fact the staff can watch the park anywhere they want through what seems like free roaming cameras, even the middle of nowhere, even inside buildings. The way the thing works reminds me of free camera mode in a FPS game, I just cant see how would that work if the park is just a regular real place - also, the fact they have this power to watch the park anywhere anytime they want, makes that scene where they ask about Dolores being with a guest or not seems weird. They could just turn their magic cameras to her and see, why send someone there? - in the second episode, the attendant says to William, when he askes her if she is real: "if you cant tell the difference, what does it matter". That's how I feel about the whole thing: the robots are indistinguishable from human beings, so what's does it matters if they are technically machines or not, in whatever you do to then? The only real difference is that what you do to the robots have no real consequences, which dont make you less of a monster if you decide to butcher, rape or torture then Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Nov 4, 2016 |
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Nov 4, 2016 11:27
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There are clearly limits to their surveillance, however.They aren't really sure where the woodcutter ended up, for instance. Someone has suggested flies as cameras but that never really made sense to me. What I have started to wonder is whether flies could actually be transmitting the consciousness code. Everyone gasped when Dolores slapped the fly and my thought was that the phrase "violent delights have violent ends" is a verbal command given the way Maeve reacts when Dolores says it to her. But what if it is the flies that transmit it? Then Dolores slapping the fly is when she is actually being infected and she really isn't lying when they debrief her. This would explain the almost immediate reaction of the sheriff to the fly landing on him. Alternatively, of course, it could just be another instance of a host trying to reconcile its consciousness and desire to slap the fly with its directive not to hurt a living being.In the sheriff's case this ends up causing a malfunction. I don't recall Maeve complaining about flies, however, and she is clearly awake. And I agree that one of the main points of the show is that AI have become close enough to human to make the guests' actions morally questionable.
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Nov 4, 2016 11:46
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The flies are real flies.
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Nov 4, 2016 11:47
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Invicta{HOG}, M.D. posted:There are clearly limits to their surveillance, however.They aren't really sure where the woodcutter ended up, for instance. Someone has suggested flies as cameras but that never really made sense to me. Hum, that's a possible explanation. The best I saw so far
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Nov 4, 2016 11:49
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:The flies are real flies. That's likely to be the case and Dolores slapping the fly loses its power if she doesn't at least think they are real. But, of course, flies can be real vectors for disease in humans which doesn't necessarily mean anything - just a thought.
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Nov 4, 2016 12:23
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VendaGoat posted:Shhhhhhh, Shhhhh thread. It's alright. It's ok. You realise we're in a discussion thread, right? Anyway. I'm 100% on board the William = MiB theory and the multiple timelines separated by a chunk of time theory. After rewatching from episode 1 and going through all the things people have pointed out it is actually really obvious. Just not as easy to see when you're watching the episode for the first time and trying to take it all in. There are a few things that make me question my certainty about it but i think they will be explained. The parralells between some of the things MiB has said and what we are seeing with William are just too bold to be coincidence. The "I was born here" line and everything we are seeing happen to William just match too well. Part of that theory includes flash forwards such as Delores on the train with William. It pans out when she says "I'm coming" and they aren't there. That 'future' or 'present' timeline is where we are going to see her reach the center of the maze. But we can all agree whatever happens the reveal is going to be amazing. Catsplosion fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Nov 4, 2016 |
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Nov 4, 2016 12:49
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KoRMaK posted:When logan talks about the suicide of the partner, he doesn't say how long ago it happened does he? Or how long the park has been opened? I think I figured it out, and this is part of it. Logan and William are split up. Logan is captured by the Confederados, but ends up working with them, and heads to The War part of the game. William and Dolores continue on, and eventually goes off on her own to find The Maze where she becomes somewhat self aware. William hooks up with the Union and ends up in The War on opposite sides with Logan. William gets so pissed at Logan taunting him that they fight and he tries to kill Logan. Logan gets the upper hand, and is about to kill William, when self aware Dolores comes and saves him by killing Logan. The action stops, the park attendants come out and pull all the hosts. They wipe Dolores. They know that this will cause the destruction of the park if it gets out that the hosts have become self aware and killed a guest. William goes on to marry Logan's sister and take over their company, and uses his juice to become part of the board and saves the park by buying it. We probably find out at some point that his company is actually called "Delos". He returns to find Dolores wiped and not remembering him. Ford adds the Teddy quest, which mimics William and Dolores, but she is killed almost every day and reset no matter what as is Teddy. William becomes obsessed with trying to jog Dolores' memories and returns once a year for 30 years trying to bring her back and/or find The Maze. He becomes the Man In Black. He is the "representative of The Board" that Ford says is already in the park. 
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Nov 4, 2016 12:54
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Right, that is pretty much what all the two timeframe people have been saying. It's a consistent narrative that makes sense from a story-telling perspective but there are some parts of what we have seen that make it less likely including much of the fourth episode.
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Nov 4, 2016 13:00
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Yeah I wouldn't have a problem with that per se, it would just be extremely telegraphed and not too clever.
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Nov 4, 2016 13:17
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That just doesn't seem like a great resolution. If the MIB can do whatever he wants, why would he need to waste 30 years to get Dolores to remember him? He could have them roll back her code to whenever he wanted. I think it's more complex than that.
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Nov 4, 2016 13:18
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Leon Einstein posted:That just doesn't seem like a great resolution. If the MIB can do whatever he wants, why would he need to waste 30 years to get Dolores to remember him? He could have them roll back her code to whenever he wanted. I think it's more complex than that. Ford is stopping him / slowing him down.
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Nov 4, 2016 13:57
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Leon Einstein posted:That just doesn't seem like a great resolution. If the MIB can do whatever he wants, why would he need to waste 30 years to get Dolores to remember him? He could have them roll back her code to whenever he wanted. I think it's more complex than that. It's interesting and I've been thinking about that myself. It's possible that they wiped her memory and that they either did not want or could not recreate what had been there before that led her to fall in love with him. Think about Groundhog Day when Bill Murray tries to recreate that one perfect day rolling in the snow. Or it could be that nothing compares to the first time just like with heroin.
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Nov 4, 2016 13:59
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Catsplosion posted:Ford is stopping him / slowing him down. No he's not. He restored Teddy to full health. He told the Man in Black something along the lines of "far be it for me to stand in the way of a journey of self-discovery." He's letting the Man in Black go full steam ahead in his quest. The question is if the Man in Black is on the right path though.
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Nov 4, 2016 14:02
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Codependent Poster posted:No he's not. He restored Teddy to full health. He told the Man in Black something along the lines of "far be it for me to stand in the way of a journey of self-discovery." Well they/he was stopping him in the past. I think Ford is either getting tired of doing so, wants to know what the MiB might find himself or is arrogant enough to believe that he has complete control of the situation and that the MiB wont be able to. I didn't get the impression that he actually wanted the MiB to continue ahead with what he was doing from that scene but that he wasnt going to stop him because hes the one who saved the company. Put it this way: The MiB might be on the board of directors but Ford is God here and MiB simply a guest. He could stop him from achieving his goal with a click of his fingers but thats not really the point of Westworld now, is it? Catsplosion fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Nov 4, 2016 |
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Nov 4, 2016 14:05
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"That gentleman gets whatever he wants." Unless he doesn't for some reason I don't know gently caress it.
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Nov 4, 2016 14:18
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Getting what he wants within the park and the storylines as a guest doesn't mean he gets what he wants outside of that 'guest' role. Even if he is special. He has to play the game like everybody else, he just has special privileges that give him an advantage.
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Nov 4, 2016 14:37
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I just think it's a hokey motivation.
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Nov 4, 2016 14:38
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so what is your guys' explanation of why Dolores is hearing the voices and acting strangely with William when it showed she first starting showing these signs in the "present timeline"
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Nov 4, 2016 14:40
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Invicta{HOG}, M.D. posted:Right, that is pretty much what all the two timeframe people have been saying. It's a consistent narrative that makes sense from a story-telling perspective but there are some parts of what we have seen that make it less likely including much of the fourth episode. Invicta{HOG}, M.D. posted:Right, that is pretty much what all the two timeframe people have been saying. It's a consistent narrative that makes sense from a story-telling perspective but there are some parts of what we have seen that make it less likely including much of the fourth episode.
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Nov 4, 2016 14:46
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Leon Einstein posted:I just think it's a hokey motivation. You believe that love is a hokey motivation but being a power gamer who wants to get to the endgame after finishing the rest of the game is not?
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Nov 4, 2016 14:52
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Invicta{HOG}, M.D. posted:You believe that love is a hokey motivation but being a power gamer who wants to get to the endgame after finishing the rest of the game is not? And I never mentioned any other motivation, so I'm not sure why you're framing it as an either or question. Leon Einstein fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Nov 4, 2016 |
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Nov 4, 2016 14:54
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How the gently caress is love his motivation if he is literally scalping Dolores? Whatever he did we are at least meant to think it was terrible because she uses that flashback as strength to pull the trigger on the bandit. (And we see him about to scalp Maeve, nevermind the other "atrocities" he's committed.) That's one thing I don't get about MiB = William, what they're shown doing just doesn't match up.
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Nov 4, 2016 14:56
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Catsplosion posted:Getting what he wants within the park and the storylines as a guest doesn't mean he gets what he wants outside of that 'guest' role. Even if he is special. He has to play the game like everybody else, he just has special privileges that give him an advantage. lol if he's on the Board of Directors and the majority shareholder he could walk into the labs and stick his dick in the milk vats screaming "Dolores I love you" what are they gonna do?
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Nov 4, 2016 15:17
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