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Why does any GM talk up 4th liners? They're inherently replaceable, and whenever a team goes on about how great their 4th line is it just reeks of desperately trying to convince people your team has depth. Then, having gone on at length about how valuable these dumb players are teams are forced to pay them like a top 9 guy to make it seem like they are. This leaves you with Dorsett making $2.65M, Prust making $2.5M, Clutterbuck making $3.5M, and Bickell making $4M. Almost without fail these guys are waived and buried in the minors before their contract is done. How hard is to say "our 4th line is contributing well" instead of resorting to bug-eyed histrionics about how they're game changers that are integral to teaching their youngsters how to play the right way? A slight measure of reservation in speech would probably save teams several million dollars per contract. It's not like GMs tend to rave endlessly about their star players or anything either, it's seemingly reserved entirely for veteran 4th line leader types. Almost like they feel the need to preemptively justify the terrible contract they're about to sign them to. It's such a weird phenomenon that I've never understood in the slightest.
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Dec 9, 2016 17:57
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ThinkTank posted:Why does any GM talk up 4th liners? They're inherently replaceable, and whenever a team goes on about how great their 4th line is it just reeks of desperately trying to convince people your team has depth. Then, having go on at length about how valuable these dumb players are teams are forced to pay them like a top 9 guy to make it seem like they are. This leaves you with Dorsett making $2.65M, Prust making $2.5M, Clutterbuck making $3.5M, and Bickell making $4M. Almost without fail these guys are waived and buried in the minors before their contract is done. they want to set a standard for how hard their players work, and since fourth liners are so much less skilled and less fast etcetc and have to consequently work so much harder and look like they are working so much harder to barely achieve anything, it looks like they're putting some herculean effort in to their jobs. if only everyone could put in the effort it takes cal clutterbuck to be a slightly above-average fourth line valued player, imagine how good this league would be
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Dec 9, 2016 17:59
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boy john tavares must be really glad he signed such a sweetheart deal with the islanders. if he re-signs with the islanders without them making him the highest paid player in the nhl he's a sucker
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Dec 9, 2016 18:01
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Aye Doc posted:they want to set a standard for how hard their players work, and since fourth liners are so much less skilled and less fast etcetc and have to consequently work so much harder and look like they are working so much harder to barely achieve anything, it looks like they're putting some herculean effort in to their jobs. if only everyone could put in the effort it takes cal clutterbuck to be a slightly above-average fourth line valued player, imagine how good this league would be I get that you want guys to set a good example, but GMs can't get enough of talking about it. Surely just having the guy on the roster indicates that's the work effort you want your team to emulate? Plus part of what makes those less skilled guys try so hard is that they don't have the long term stability. Off the top of my head I can't think of a single grinder type who signed a long term contract and even stayed as effective as before, let alone improved in any way. You can reward a guy who's putting in extra effort with more ice time and perhaps bump down a star who's half assing it. You don't have to start waxing lyrically about said scrub in the process.
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Dec 9, 2016 18:02
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It's good to have a good fourth line because in the NHL these days it's better to have players who can actually play and aren't just lovely punch guys in that position but yeah that also doesn't mean you should take up a significant chunk of cap on them either. It's like one of the best spots to have some low cost prospects who are never going to score a lot but otherwise drive the play effectively
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Dec 9, 2016 18:03
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N:  V: I want Jim Benning and Willie D to go away so I can watch Subban and Demko without this poisonous back office in a year or so.
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Dec 9, 2016 18:04
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If you pay your 4th liners the most, and work up from there, your best players are your cheapest players. That's just math, dummies.
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Dec 9, 2016 18:04
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Aphrodite posted:If you pay your 4th liners the most, and work up from there, your best players are your cheapest players. Trickle up analytics.
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Dec 9, 2016 18:06
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tofes posted:does anyone want a gently used Mikkel Boedker? He's bound to break out at some point, right? Right? ThinkTank posted:On a similar note, is there a good reason why Joe Thornton has been so average this year? Was last season just a dead cat bounce and age is catching up to him, or is there more to it? 16pts in 26 game is not Jumbo production. Dude is 37, and I think it'd be difficult for him to replicate his PPG season. It's still early, but if he finishes with 50+ points, I'd qualify that as a success. Spring Break My Heart posted:You know who's done? Jarome Iginla. Yeah 
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Dec 9, 2016 18:06
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Garth Snow got Grabovski and Kulemin. Okay, that might be a slight overpayment, ($5M and $4.1M) but you gotta get players to the Island somehow, and they apparently work well toge- Oh gently caress Grabovski is dead. Leddy and Boychuk? Fuckin' awesome. There's some defensemen now! A 7 year contract for Leddy? Awesome, he's great. $5.5M? Cool. A NMC? no problem. 7 years of Boychuk? Well, that kinda seems like a lot? I guess he can mentor the kids. $6M cap hit? Eehhhhh. And a NMC? Oh, I guess we're losing Okposo? Well, maybe there's gonna be a push for Stamk-.... oh nevermind. Guess Garth is gonna re-sign Okpo-.... oh, no. Losing Martin? Fine. Losing Frans goddamn Nielsen? C'mooooon, Garth. Oh, but here's Andrew Ladd. He's supposed to be grea-... goo-....okay. Maybe an Okposo replacement? WHAT?! FOR HOW MUCH? ($7M) Put him on the fuckin' fourth line. Garth got Seidenberg and Chimera? Well, I guess. And just because he can, let's have JF Berube waste away doing nothing. You know who we really need to keep around? Cal Clutterbuck. I heard some guys on the LIRR talking, and they have some pretty good ideas and views on the team. With their advice, Garth Snow gave Clutterbuck $3.5M to hit people, be a piece of poo poo on the ice, and get 20 points maybe. What's that Tavares? Nah, Bailey's a fine winger. A fiiiiine winger for ya.
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Dec 9, 2016 18:16
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Cal Clutterbuck is a piece of poo poo.
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Dec 9, 2016 18:16
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Ken Holland thinks the Islanders are moving in the right direction, you can't pay enough for grit.
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Dec 9, 2016 18:18
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N: A deal that makes Glendening's and Helm's look less stupid by comparison V: Abdelkader's still wins
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Dec 9, 2016 18:20
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AsInHowe posted:Ken Holland thinks the Islanders are moving in the right direction, you can't pay enough for grit. Sometimes I like to think about people like Benning and Holland being in charge of organizations where results actually mattered in some way. "Well Alan may not be the best paramedic, in fact some would say he's dangerously unfit for his position, but you gotta admire that dedication. Sure he kills the occasional patient or two because he doesn't know the difference between saline and morphine, but dammit he puts in the hours!"
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Dec 9, 2016 18:23
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ThinkTank posted:Sometimes I like to think about people like Benning and Holland being in charge of organizations where results actually mattered in some way. Oh I thought we moved away from the Trump topic.
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Dec 9, 2016 18:25
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Also if Tavares actually hits the market, he's totally gonna get suckered in by Kenny thinking that Detroit will be better BUT IT WON'T BE BETTER YOU IDIOT RUN Can't wait for Nolan Patrick to somehow fall to the Wings but Holland trades the pick to Arizona to get rid of Franzen's contract
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Dec 9, 2016 18:27
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garth used to be good but now i think he is maybe not so good
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Dec 9, 2016 18:31
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I'm looking at the Islanders and the Red Wings and yknow, the only connecting factor I can find here is that Teemu Pokemon roots for both. 
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Dec 9, 2016 18:34
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I loving hate the goddamn Islanders Ah poo poo, I hate the Red Wings too, maybe I am an Islanders fan and I just don't know it
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Dec 9, 2016 18:35
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Rotten Cookies posted:Garth Snow got Grabovski and Kulemin. Okay, that might be a slight overpayment, ($5M and $4.1M) but you gotta get players to the Island somehow, and they apparently work well toge- Oh gently caress Grabovski is dead. imagine if instead of signing Cizikas and Clutterbuck to a combined 6.85m per year, he spent 6m per year to keep Kyle Okposo, and found some other trash players to fill the void in the bottom six. that's what the NHL is - 2 fourth liners have more value to a team than one kick rear end scorer
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Dec 9, 2016 18:36
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This is great. After years of pity for the Islanders for being a budget team with lousy ownership, I can once again laugh at them and all of their bad hockey decisions. Trying to rationalize it a bit, he scores a decent number of goals at even strength, and he puts up a few shorties every year, too. He's physical but doesn't take a lot of penalties. He's absolutely terrible as passing and most of his play is chipping the puck along the boards and shoving guys around the net. He has 31 assists in 251 games with the Islanders. 
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Dec 9, 2016 18:44
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Rotten Cookies posted:And just because he can, let's have JF Berube waste away doing nothing. what the gently caress is going on with this one anyways
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Dec 9, 2016 18:48
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The Islanders are secretly a college team
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Dec 9, 2016 18:53
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bewbies posted:so wait is it cool to hate mcdavid now?' I can't keep up ThinkTank posted:Why does any GM talk up 4th liners? They're inherently replaceable, and whenever a team goes on about how great their 4th line is it just reeks of desperately trying to convince people your team has depth. Then, having gone on at length about how valuable these dumb players are teams are forced to pay them like a top 9 guy to make it seem like they are. This leaves you with Dorsett making $2.65M, Prust making $2.5M, Clutterbuck making $3.5M, and Bickell making $4M. Almost without fail these guys are waived and buried in the minors before their contract is done. I do think Bickell's contract was more overestimating his talent level after the playoff run than overvaluing 4th liners. I think they legitimately thought he'd be the permanent LW to Kane, and that he was going to be a ~50 point guy going forward. ThinkTank posted:I get that you want guys to set a good example, but GMs can't get enough of talking about it. Surely just having the guy on the roster indicates that's the work effort you want your team to emulate? Plus part of what makes those less skilled guys try so hard is that they don't have the long term stability. Off the top of my head I can't think of a single grinder type who signed a long term contract and even stayed as effective as before, let alone improved in any way. Levitate posted:It's good to have a good fourth line because in the NHL these days it's better to have players who can actually play and aren't just lovely punch guys in that position but yeah that also doesn't mean you should take up a significant chunk of cap on them either. It's like one of the best spots to have some low cost prospects who are never going to score a lot but otherwise drive the play effectively
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Dec 9, 2016 18:54
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https://www.nhl.com/news/olympic-hockey-not-paying-dividends-as-hoped/c-284524268 It's nice of the NHL to write an article like this for their site. Awfully considerate, in spirit of the season.
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Dec 9, 2016 18:58
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Flyers releasing their Stadium Series jersey tomorrow. If it's anything like the leaked ones then the Flyers have completely forgotten how to jersey and I'll only buy one of them. That'll show 'em.  http://www.crossingbroad.com/2016/12/is-this-the-stadium-series-jersey-the-flyers-will-release-tomorrow.html
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Dec 9, 2016 19:06
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Teemu Pokemon posted:Also if Tavares actually hits the market, he's totally gonna get suckered in by Kenny thinking that Detroit will be better BUT IT WON'T BE BETTER YOU IDIOT RUN "Nolan is a very raw talent, and he will need years in the AHL to develop. I don't think he'll be a first-line or second-line player when he does come up, anyway. We can use Johan's cap space to improve our team right now." *signs disliked goon to a 4-year, $24 million contract*
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Dec 9, 2016 19:11
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I like guys like Clutterbuck, Czikas, Martin, even Neil. I just don't like them being paid more than league minimum.
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Dec 9, 2016 19:13
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Zodijackylite posted:This is great. After years of pity for the Islanders for being a budget team with lousy ownership, I can once again laugh at them and all of their bad hockey decisions. That he doesn't have more penalties speaks less to him and more to the refs.
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Dec 9, 2016 19:35
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Shawn Cotureier posted:Flyers releasing their Stadium Series jersey tomorrow. If it's anything like the leaked ones then the Flyers have completely forgotten how to jersey and I'll only buy one of them. That'll show 'em. That's loving hideous
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Dec 9, 2016 19:37
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Are the Isles still paying DiPi?
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Dec 9, 2016 19:38
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A healthy Lundqvist is sitting back-to-back games. I hope this is the year he starts his downward trend, though I also think he is typically a slow starter? (correct me if I'm wrong RAS)
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Dec 9, 2016 19:38
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Mind_Taker posted:A healthy Lundqvist is sitting back-to-back games. I hope this is the year he starts his downward trend, though I also think he is typically a slow starter? (correct me if I'm wrong RAS) He's had bad Octobers lately, but not much longer than that.
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Dec 9, 2016 19:40
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Martytoof posted:Are the Isles still paying DiPi? Until 2028-2029, yes.
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Dec 9, 2016 19:40
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I'm not up to date on current islander news because I keep watching this Tavares goal from last night Rotten Cookies posted:News: I'll just keep comforting myself by watching these gifs and hide from the fact that Josh Bailey is the best winger Tavares will have for the rest of his career
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Dec 9, 2016 19:48
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Shawn Cotureier posted:Flyers releasing their Stadium Series jersey tomorrow. If it's anything like the leaked ones then the Flyers have completely forgotten how to jersey and I'll only buy one of them. That'll show 'em. This is poo poo 
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Dec 9, 2016 19:48
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ThinkTank posted:Why does any GM talk up 4th liners? They're inherently replaceable, and whenever a team goes on about how great their 4th line is it just reeks of desperately trying to convince people your team has depth. Then, having gone on at length about how valuable these dumb players are teams are forced to pay them like a top 9 guy to make it seem like they are. This leaves you with Dorsett making $2.65M, Prust making $2.5M, Clutterbuck making $3.5M, and Bickell making $4M. Almost without fail these guys are waived and buried in the minors before their contract is done. You can teach your star players how to backcheck and block shots but you can't teach your 4th line players how to actually play hockey, so maybe your stars learn that they should do what the grinders do. Also GMs have way more flexibility signing 4th line players so it's more of their baby than any superstar foisted on them and there's a huge pool of bad hockey players so it's possible to sign someone who says and does exactly what you want.
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Dec 9, 2016 19:55
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Martytoof posted:Are the Isles still paying DiPi? Oooooohhhhh yyeeaaaaahhh. Til 2029 I think
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Dec 9, 2016 20:00
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Mind_Taker posted:A healthy Lundqvist is sitting back-to-back games. I hope this is the year he starts his downward trend, though I also think he is typically a slow starter? (correct me if I'm wrong RAS) He definitely has not looked comfortable this season for whatever reason. Hard to say if it's the start of a decline or what, he was incredible at the start of last season before the Rangers terrible D got to him, but this year he just hasn't seemed quite comfortable in net. Lot of awkward looking saves, him just being a bit out of position, etc. We'll see how it goes! Raanta's pretty good in the meantime e: hockey players/athletes are a bit nuts http://www.theplayerstribune.com/jed-ortmeyer-blood-clots/ quote:“When can I play hockey again?” I asked. Levitate fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Dec 9, 2016 |
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Dec 9, 2016 20:11
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I think the fact a lot of GMs played hockey but were never that good might be a factor there. They overvalue the guys who they see themselves as comparable to. Mind you Yzerman signing Callahan for a billion dollars might cast shade on that theory.
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Dec 9, 2016 20:30
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